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 Restoration Road

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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:47 pm


Hi Michael and Zonees

Sonic felt that with the present edges of the Magneplanars 1.5QRs 18" from the side walls is good enough and if I bring them closer together the perspective will change and more tuning of the room will be necessary to get the best out of the placement and with the sound I am not getting, there is little incentive to get into this extra work.

So I went elsewhere and did two things -- Sonic placed a thin MW/Space Cone combination to reduce EMF out the Sony blu-ray player, and placed 4 large Harmonic Feet under the DecoTune base that is supporting the main amp. Thin MW pieces protect the wood floor under the Harmonic Feet.

This is very good even after just 3 hours of musick! The soundstage is wider, and less sound appears to come from the 1.5QRs. The centre images project forward and images in the soundstage are better defined. There is a dimensionality and ease that is nice.

There is more girth and size in the images. On some recordings like the late Bert Jansch's Jack Orion where he and John Renbourne duet on guitar and banjo (Waggoners Lad), the guitar and banjo are HUGE and room filling, set behind the speaker panels and really detached from them....the only thing is the perspective has Bert and John sitting further apart than I can imagine them playing together. I remember the recordings done were done in a kitchen and the two musicians would have been sitting close together. I am getting large instruments set some 12+ feet apart which is not likely to be how the recording was done. OTOH, the foot taps during Waggoner's Lad and the squeaks and noises are very real.

Also played a recording of Indian classical pieces for Carnatic Flute accompanied by violin, tambur (drone), mridagam (two-headed drum), ghatam (claypot). Not a good recording but the Tune brings out the musical event nicely.

Sonic
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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:22 am


Hi Zonees

The tune to the CD player and the use of the Harmonic Feet to support the assembly under the main amp is really good.

I need to now adjust the interconnects so they are off the floor without the use of Cable Grounds.

There is more to tune in my system though I have not been permitted in my dwelling to mount Space Cones on the door surfaces outside the listening room nor to do anything with the windows that change the appearance of the dwelling -- meaning curtains and blinds are OK but not Builders Paper on the window panes.

I may also have to move the racks and the analog side of the system back in.

The system will still work fine with that and Sonic is likely to have more tuning adventures to talk about.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:45 am


Hi Zonees

System's interconnects adjusted so they hang free off the ground without need for Cable Grounds.

Nice focus and clarity in the sound. A definite improvement.

I tried moving the DecoTunes in the corners towards me (they are just about placed across the corners). A mixed bag of improvement with some odd effects. The odd effects which made me go back to the old setting was I started hearing TWO ambiences in the room -- one from the recording and one from the room itself. This is a very weird effect if you ever hear it.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:54 am


Hi Zonees

Sonic went back to the original placement of the DecoTunes in the front corners and found that the most meaty sound images came where I placed the panels across the front corners in isoceles triangle.

I also tuned the Quicksilver preamp after I found that some of the bolts mounting the circuit board to the chassis frame were too loose. This might compromise the electrical earthing of the preamp system. I tightened everything in the preamp moderately and this gave a more focussed sound.

Was listening this evening to Gregorian Chants by the Benedictine monks of St Dominic of Silos (EMI), Tutu by Miles Davis, Birth of the Cool (Miles Davis) and Fortepiano pieces by Joseph Haydn (BIS).

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:13 pm


Hi Zonees

Sonic’s system has stabilized after placing the FS-DTs across the front corners and balancing the tightness of the coupling of the QS-Pre circuit board to its chassis (that is the side frame without the top and bottom covers after Sonic removed them).

I was listening to Haydn’s pieces for fortepiano , some William Byrd and Ron Carter when I was remarking that this is getting to be better than much of what I been hearing at the hi-fi salon I visit listening to gear that costs 10x more.

But never one to leave things as they are, Sonic got an idea guided by Michael’s example.

The front portion of my room – I got a pair of FS-PZCs behind my equipment rack placed in a \ / with the intersection pointing towards the listening chair (go to Forums on this site - Home Audio Systems and then see Sonic’s System page 41) and behind my listening seat I also got another FS-PZC between two FS-DRTs.

Action
Then thinks Sonic, “what if I did what Michael did in his post of 29 May 2012 (page 10 of Michael’s System in Home Audio Systems). This means setting up a cluster of three FS-PZCs at the front wall behind the equipment rack, all 3 parallel to the front wall, 2 at the front wall, bases touching the front wall and one in the middle brought forward closer to the equipment rack, that is a Triplet structure. Like this: - _ -

Now I was skeptical, Sonic has tried a triple FS-PZC set up before like this: \ _/ and the result was not a satisfactory sound and using a single FS-PZC behind the rack brought me back to the “banana” middle stage imaging.

But this time, I was still surprised by the improvement!

Sonic got a soundstage that had images that were laid out realistically wall to wall, focused and dense in the middle -- the opposite of the “thrown to the side walls” effect I heard.

I got a stronger bass, clearer trebles and better transient impact. Aside from the spectacular stuff that often cause audiophiles to chase things down blind alleys and end up with colouration, I can hear realistic music of vocalists vocalising, pianos played with force giving strong dynamics, the ability to tell if Martin or Gibson guitars are being played, if the violins are period instruments or modern, gut strung or steel strung, and being able to hear the very difficult-to-reproduce viola lines.

The soundstage is projected enough to engage the listener yet not too wide, the midrange is not recessed in a frequency or imagining sense, dynamics ebb and flow without strain and the sound level for a given preamp setting is increased.

The placement of the FS-PZC Triplet has been so good that Sonic has noticed but could find a hole in the ambient field behind my head and to the sides to be something that is for now tolerable but needs to be worked through later. And Michael has given ideas in his thread that Sonic can try soon.

The FS-PZCs parallel to the front wall are looking like sentinels when I listen with the lights off and the curtains drawn open to allow moonlight to shine in. It is good enough as it is, and there is an audiophile who listens in a darkened room with a lava lamp to “create the mood”. Sonic must try this one day.

Sonic feels that the FS-PZC Triplet set up is something Zonees should try if you got enough PZCs, DRTs or DTs at hand. To my ears, in my system, we got a process that is a big improvement and could unlock the door to moor.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:09 pm


Hi Zonees

Oops typo....unlock the door to more....

Michael, give your views and comments as soon as you can on the \ / \ _ / and the present - _ - setting for the FS-PSCs.

Michael, to you tighten any of the tuning bolts of your triplet FS-PZCs? How far forward is the centre PZC from the two rear ones?

Sonic has been working to optimise the set up and thinking about ways to get an all round ambient field.

Now that I am listening through a "simple" system, I can recognise its signture and benefit.

Just for a test, I brought my tuner (a solidly built, heavy thing from the best of Britain in the 1960s) back into the room and placed it on a small makeshift platform cobbled together from "All-Genuine Michael Green Parts".

Wherever I placed it (to the sides of the rack) Sonic could hear the music was somehow restrained and held back ever so slightly compared to the side where there was no extra component.....Michael, comment on this too if you will.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:11 pm

Hi Sonic

Interesting that your getting good results from the PZC flat layout. This is something I usually play with in wide vs long rooms. Pressure zones have their own life though and sometimes the combination of the laminar flow and the size of the arc on the front pressure zones almost act like a wall. In my rooms I have found 18" - 26" being the most active for the center one and 12" - 18" on the side ones. When doing this I also find an energy zone about a foot or 2 out of each corner to play with and occasionally end up moving my tunes slightly out of the direct corners in this setup. It's kinda like relieving pressure to let more get to the wall of PZCs. This doesn't always work but when it does this huge smooth soundstage wall is thick and full all the way to the rear of the room.

Secondly. Every time I have gone simple it is very hard for me to add things back into the room cause they stick out and you always know they are there. scratch They jump out at you as if they are making fun of your sound stage and know it. lol! When I do add stuff back in I have to make overall compromises to deal with it (like rugs) and it drives me a bit crazy, but that's the price of adding sources.

Back to the front PZCs, when in this configuration the sound can be changed drastically by adding a little weight to the base of the units. Also I find pressure boxes to have interesting effects on the floor beside where I sit a little to the front and right or left of my seat when I'm using the PZC wall. BTW I treat my pressure boxes and don't leave the cardboard raw. I'll use a little spray poly, tape the box with painters tape or masking tape.

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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:16 am


Hi Michael

Good points and thoughts as always! You know, "they jump out at you as if they are making fun of your sound stage and know it" is something I experienced even before Sonic got serious in the tune when I was having single system in my dwelling with multiple sources.

From a long time ago each time I added another component, I felt something change but back then there was nothing in the audiophile world and the magazines I read -- HiFi News, Abso!ute Sound, Stereophile -- where anyone noticed this let alone explained it. But let not Sonic credit myself with perceptiveness - maybe I am projecting my recent experiences back into the past?

But each time the same effect is heard; a dullness along with a sense that the spatiality of the music is somehow constrained. The main notes of the music was intact but an opacity is taken over the inner voices of the musick. To overcome it, I felt I had to turn the volume, the mids, the treble and expand the soundstage.

I wonder how a device like a tuner weighing less than 5 lbs with a small footprint and not plugged in can effect the sound this way. Michael is the effect acoustic, electrical, electrostatic, resonant or some other phenomena?

Sonic will soon get to pulling the FS-PZC triplet set forward and weight them down just like Michael said. And I'll post the effect for Zonees to compare notes. But now the triplet is very good and the thing I need to work on is a loss of ambience behind me since the FS-PZC behind the listening chair is now in front.

Sonic

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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:30 am


Hi Michael

Forgot to ask you this:

"Back to the front PZCs, when in this configuration the sound can be changed drastically by adding a little weight to the base of the units. Also I find pressure boxes to have interesting effects on the floor beside where I sit a little to the front and right or left of my seat when I'm using the PZC wall. BTW I treat my pressure boxes and don't leave the cardboard raw."

1. How heavy is the weight that worked for your PZCs?

2. Given that the PZCs in your system have parallel legs and no base board, where did you place the weight or weights?

3. What are the approximate dimensions of the pressure box that you are using (or most recently used)?

4. How far ahead from your seat was it?

5. Was the port facing up towards the ceiling or along the horizontal axes of the room?

Up till now, the Pressure Boxes work well at first for Sonic but after two weeks or so the sound gets muddy and I start to move it around. Then I find it sounds right nowehere and then it is off to the recycler for the box. Could this be due to the cardboard being untreated and absorbing moisture?

An observation made by a musick loving audiophile Sonic knows -- who asks "Are you a musick lover or an audio equipment nut? Think how much have you have spent on CDs (and LPs, EPs, SPs, tapes), then compare that to how much you have spent on audio equipment....the comparison will tell a lot."

Sonic knows of people at both extremes -- audiophiles who own less than 50 CDs and play only about 5 constantly to test their systems and tweaks (usually for soundstage beyond outer edges of the spakers ) and who seem to have some new peice of gear each weekend.....and an individual I know who has rooms of recordings of classical, Asian ethnic and jazz music, drama of one kind or another but a very modest audio systems like a Bose something or other.....who is happier? I think there is something for Sonic to learn here.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:26 pm

"I wonder how a device like a tuner weighing less than 5 lbs with a small footprint and not plugged in can effect the sound this way. Michael is the effect acoustic, electrical, electrostatic, resonant or some other phenomena?"

All energy occupies space. So the answer is "all of the above". The more we tune the more we see the working of all energy as really one cooperative source. And we learn that energy is everywhere effecting everything.

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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:37 pm

"Back to the front PZCs, when in this configuration the sound can be changed drastically by adding a little weight to the base of the units. Also I find pressure boxes to have interesting effects on the floor beside where I sit a little to the front and right or left of my seat when I'm using the PZC wall. BTW I treat my pressure boxes and don't leave the cardboard raw."

1. How heavy is the weight that worked for your PZCs?

Oh my, I can hear a difference after even a half a pound.

2. Given that the PZCs in your system have parallel legs and no base board, where did you place the weight or weights?

I use both types of PZC and feet depending on what I'm doing, both for the pic you are looking at I sometimes lay bars on the rods.

3. What are the approximate dimensions of the pressure box that you are using (or most recently used)?

Currently one box, h 18" w 9" d 14"

4. How far ahead from your seat was it?

Sticking 3" out from the left corner of my chair.

5. Was the port facing up towards the ceiling or along the horizontal axes of the room?

No port on this one.

Up till now, the Pressure Boxes work well at first for Sonic but after two weeks or so the sound gets muddy and I start to move it around. Then I find it sounds right nowehere and then it is off to the recycler for the box. Could this be due to the cardboard being untreated and absorbing moisture?

Yep, I'm pretty sure that's what's happening, but as these things settle sometimes the size needs changed.

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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:57 pm

"An observation made by a musick loving audiophile Sonic knows -- who asks "Are you a musick lover or an audio equipment nut? Think how much have you have spent on CDs (and LPs, EPs, SPs, tapes), then compare that to how much you have spent on audio equipment....the comparison will tell a lot."

Sonic knows of people at both extremes -- audiophiles who own less than 50 CDs and play only about 5 constantly to test their systems and tweaks (usually for soundstage beyond outer edges of the spakers ) and who seem to have some new peice of gear each weekend.....and an individual I know who has rooms of recordings of classical, Asian ethnic and jazz music, drama of one kind or another but a very modest audio systems like a Bose something or other.....who is happier? I think there is something for Sonic to learn here."

This is most important and where many audiophiles loose at the game. They are so stuck on a few recordings that they fine tune into something they want to hear but their systems fall apart when they listen to a wide range. Many of these guys also never hear the magic of settling which is a major part of hearing the music develop.

One of the games I love to play within my version of the hobby is to keep changing references. I'll pick something out of my collection and treat it with as much attention as I have with any other recording of reference. Where it ends up taking me are places I never thought I would go. I don't really look at my systems as something that are suppose to give me the same sound every time. Personally I find this a bit boring. If playing one cd after another I'm usually in my writing room working or outside sanding or something. When seriously listening I take two approaches. One being an overall tone, and the other going for the individual magic that the recording has within itself. Many times I'll just kick back and enjoy the space of the stage and forget about particulars until one of those particulars reaches out and bites me, then I go into tweak mode. Usually though if in listening mode I don't go crazy (just a little tweak of flavor). Design mode is something all together different though.

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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:08 am

Shocked
Hi Michael

A pressure box with no port? And it works… the box you are using is also a fair bit smaller than those I been using. The resonant frequency of your pressure box is about 50Hz assuming a 3.25 port of zero length ie: a hole, using the Helmholtz resonator calculator tool I use. Mine were operating in the 14Hz to 18Hz range. Time for another pressure box, this time with clear coat applied.

Of course since the box you are using is totally sealed, it is not a Helmholtz resonator, so what this is in acoustic theory I wonder. Sonic does remember a tweak that some audiophiles tried that was said to reduce boomy bass – it was said to come from the Shun Mook folks who tweaked rooms using cardboard boxes filled with magazines and crumpled newspaper. Is this a version of the same idea?

Your explanation of other equipment in the room occupying space and adding their signatures to the overall sound makes sense. Come to think of it, if audiophiles acknowledge that furniture, screens, curtains, items like picture frames and hollow pottery items do affect sound, why not devices like tuners? By that token, Michael’s “Theory of Simplicity” shows that the longer the signal chain – eg: CD player, DAC, preamp, crossovers, multi amp and speakers – means there will more things in the room to interact. And less the better.

For Sonic, the thing is how to set out the other pieces of gear as multiple systems in my dwelling. And even in an untuned room in another part of my dwelling, a single source, simple amp and speaker set up does actually sound cleaner and more engaging than when I had two or three sources plugged in.

Now back to Sonic’s tuned system. I managed to get the ambience to surround the listening chair. Have a look at the picture I posted in Sonic’s System page 37 on October 28, 2011. This is an old pix of my bookcase wall, the FS-DRTs and the FS-PZC (ignore the small MW pieces and the Space Cones at the corners of the bookcases….I long found better uses for the Space Cones).

The FS-PZC has now been moved to the front to form the Triple-PZC set up. I hung a Tune Strip down the centre of the Bookcase Wall and spaced it by about 2 inches from the bookcase surface. This allows the absorptive side to act over a wider span of sound. The FS-DRTs are no longer toed in but turned out till they are parallel to the bookcase wall. This worked well – the ambience surrounds the listener but is not unnaturally pronounced.

Some back and forth testing of toe-in for the FS-DRTs shows that at the present state Tune, toe-in narrows the rear ambient field at lot. Interestingly, my tuning notes show that a zero toe-in set up has been attempted before but the result was to lose any sense of rear ambience. Why it works now is not surprising since so much has changed in my system not least of all is the “simple set up” which Sonic is convinced of.

The other thing I am trying out is weighting the bases of the FS-PZCs and Sonic found just the thing that could work. I had a number of the heavy screw-on metal caps that came with my Clamp Racks that were used for the top shelf. I prefer to use the hex-nuts for all shelves of my Clamp Racks including the top shelf. I don’t know if Michael used these caps for cosmetic reasons (they do give the Clamp Racks a nice industrial look) or if they were for the sound like to affect the vibrations on the top shelf. Michael, what purpose did they serve?

Sonic placed one cap on each FS-PZC on the base, centre. Pretty good on first listen and after while it did something for the focus of the centre soundstage. A few days of settling and we’ll know what the weights contribute. Then I might double up the caps per FS-PZC and see what happens.

Will write up on the other steps Michael recommended like moving the PZCs forward from the front wall next.

Sonic

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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:07 am

Hi Sonic

Very good stuff here!

I like nuts too on top selves. No one would buy them that way though. The brass tops sounded pretty good as well. A trick I did on mine long ago was to put an over size washer on top of the recessed hole and then put a nut or the top cap on. Funny because most people bought these racks because they were so bulky and solid when tightened down. I had to keep my mouth shut on this one Laughing and let them do what they wanted.

"A pressure box with no port?" I like this. Yes I have always looked at things a lot different than the audiophile measuring crowd. Calling out a measurement or value is something we should do after the effect factor and not before as part of the formula. A ported box (or any box) does more than resonant at a tone based on volume of air. There's much more to it but I don't think the audiophile has grabbed onto the meaning of voicing yet. Here is where the audiophile world once again leaves the practical instrument world. Take a drum. Play it skins on and then play it skin off. Same note, different voicing of that note. Audiophiles don't get this because they are thinking frequency and not notes like you and I.

shaping notes

Shaping notes is a technology that is far different from frequency responses controlling. So much so that many times (almost always) if we tune our rooms (systems) by the frequency responce our sound comes up missing a ton of the music. We sit here scratching our heads and looking for fault in our listening because flat doesn't lie we are thinking. But reality is the experience and not the formula. Formulas in sound have never been accurate when we combine them in pressurised rooms. Look at it this way. If you put a resonator inside of a resonator the value of the internal resonator is completely dependent on the performance boundaries of the outside resonator (the room and the entire house or building). Further more the inside resonator is performing under the specific pressure of the outer resonator changing the performance of the outer resonator. In other words there are not formulas that can operate outside of the laws of tuning. You put an object in a room and you have a unique sound wave pattern that is specific to that room. Helmholtz (as cool as it sounds) is only a language that worked in one particular setting and after this never again unless the conditions are exactly the same as they were in the original formula documentation. If this were not the case we would never need to tune instruments and they would sound the same in every room. This is an example of how far off the audiophile world is from the reality of sound. The difference is the musical instrument world embraces tuning using it as part of the technology, and the audiophile world keeps trying to out think the obvious.

I learned a long time ago that the audiophile/engineer sound world is much different from the actual sound wave world. One side you have artists and the other techies. Once in a while those worlds meet but much of time the techy side is still trying to figure out how sound works from a one dimensional point of view. The artist learns the tricks to repeat the sound and the techy tries to put a number on it cause they don't know how to recreate it physically. A lot of this comes down to how we are wired as people and little to do with listening.

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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:11 pm


Hi Michael

Two problems are found in my system which Sonic needs your guidance:

1. There is a noticeable ring and overhang in my room of one note – it is a F note (relating to an A = 440Hz tuning). This note, when activated rings noticeably. It is particularly noticeable in simple musical works like solo voice or guitar. How do I go about taming it?

2. On mono recordings played on my system, I get a drift to the right in the piano and male vocals frequency ranges. On mono, everything should be centred. On my system trebles like cymbals and low notes (double bass) are OK correctly centred, but in the range where the piano and male lower female vocals sound, things drift to the right.

Michael -- what do I do about these two flaws in my system?

On other things: if Sonic was to follow what I been saying, I should try using an integrated amp instead of the tube preamp + main amp set up. That would be a logical move towards the “simple system” idea from Michael. That day might come.

The weights on the FS-PZCs are working – I found one per PZC to be about right. Two per PZC in the triplet caused too much “middle image” and two weights on the outer PZCs and one on the middle PZC seems to make images positioned behind the speaker panels start to lock to the panels – this always a bad sign of something not being tuned right – and soundstage wide but too Left/Right.

Think I can now hear my system settle in progressively over the first hour after power up from cold. Once the system is tuned enough to hear this, it becomes unmistakable.

Sonic is looking for a cardboard box of comparable size to what Michael is using and a can of clearcoat to apply.

Yes, we need to work at shaping notes rather than frequency response.

In the meantime, the music has been very good. This weekend I listened to Beethoven’s Eroica Symphony and his 4th Symphony played on period instruments by the Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique conducted by John Elliot Gardiner (Archiv), Haydn’s Cello Concertos (Coin/Hogwood), Handel’s Complete Sonatas for Recorder (Pehrsson/ BIS) and parts of a wonderful box-set of Haydn’s Complete Music for Solo Keyboard (Ronald Brautigam on fortepiano/BIS). This last box-set recording is a steal – 15 CDs for US$25 or so. Also played Bob Dylan’s As Good as I Been to You, some Lester Young/Oscar Peterson and a CD of “(Gerry) Mulligan meets (Thelonious) Monk” – excellent music on this one.

Sonic

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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:34 am


Hi Michael and Zonees

After the lengthy listening sessions over the weekend and into the start of the week, Sonic found the cause of the drift to the Right that I asked Michael about.

It was the Triplet FS-PZC set up in the front of my room Surprised Going back to the \ / layout in the front behind the equipment rack and the third FS-PZC behind the listening chair, a mono CD plays back with all the instruments in the different frequencies from bass to the top treble neatly centred Smile Goes without saying that throwing the mono switch on the preamp centres the images.

The FS-PZCs had some advantages in the - _ - configuration but it was not a lot better while the \ / gives a more relaxed overall sound. How did I arrive at the solution? The more I listened, more the images in the Right and Left were of different density, flatter on the Left and a slight tilt in the axis of the soundstage that pointed to a Right drift.

Since Sonic has all settings recorded, marked and measured out, going back to the old setting is a 10 minute job.

Michael said that he is surprised that the Triplet worked in my system and I guess it didn’t after all. The man is right again – in the time I been tuning and getting advice from Michael he has been nearly always right when he hears my room remotely…make that always right except in the case of the curtains.

Now that I am back to the earlier set up, Sonic has got to let the system settle then I’ll make some changes based on what I learned when I was tuning the - _ - set up.

Sonic

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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:24 pm

Hi Sonic

Making my rounds and thought I would stop in and say hi. Michael keeps telling me you would love the mini mods, so if any questions fire away. He said you had the Rogers. I know it's not the same thing but I have the Klipsch monitors and they sound like closed in tin cans compared to the mini mods. Even when I had my big Klipsch they didn't come close to this sound. MGA speakers sound very open compared to other speakers. It's kind of hard to describe. "real" is a good word. And dynamic. You would think that having Klipsch I wouldn't call MGA speakers dynamic but they are far easier to listen to the quiet and the more full music. The bass is tighter too.
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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:52 am


Hi there Bob!

Yes I would be interested, yet in my understanding, and unvarying experience listening to sound systems is: Big Room use Big Speakers/Small Rooms use Mini Monitors.

Minis in a big room just don't have the wave launch and breath of realism that a large system positioned correctly will.

Minis throw what appears at first to be a bigger, better soundstage but this is down to their being visually small. Ultimately the soundfield, although well dileanated, will be heard to be made of small images, like looking at a beautiful model railway. But it will still be a model railway.

The Mini Mods could the sole exception. But every experience I had with small speakers in my room even with tuning in place has ended up with me going back up in size.

But my mind's not closed on this -- how do the Mini Mods do what nothing else can, what about the wave launch idea etc?

What was the big Klipsch you had? How big was the room? Now that might be the tipping point.

Sonic

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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:46 am


Hi Michael and Zonees

Sonic uses four shelves in my Clamprack – two top tuned the Quicksilver preamp, on one sat the Sony blu-ray player and the other one carried the V-DAC.

Since the exit of the V-DAC one shelf was empty and used as a “balancer” to stabilise the rack. The Sonic had a think given Michael’s guidance for simple systems with one of the critical points of the idea being lowering mass wherever possible, so some quick calculations showed me something interesting. Each shelf of hemlock chipboard weighs in at about 15 lbs, so a four deck Clamprack with mild steel rods and cones will weigh in at between 70 to 80 lbs. A lot of weight especially if I understand that the later racks from Michael were a lot lighter. So the removal of one of these hemlock chipboard shelves will result in a weight reduction of about 20%.

So one shelf removed….and the sound opened up. The change was not earth moving but the sound flowed more easily, details in the musick were just there, neither standing out or hidden so that I had to listen out for them. The volume or more the dynamic range improved slightly.

Michael, your comments please on:

a. the failure of the Triplet PZCs to work in my room

b. my question on the F-note being emphasised and how I can deal with that. I know you have said that these effects are due to “blockages” but what is the process to start finding them?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:03 pm

Hi Sonic

I heard the mini in MG's 14'X28' room and the sound stage was huge and full top to bottom. What I have noticed is with other monitors the boxes are very hard and heavy compared to the mini which is like a feather. The other speakers also had poly filler in them and the mini has none of that stuff. If I were to take a guess I would say the mini doesn't know it is small. The cabinet vibrates freely and the side washers and tuning bar give the speakers the outside pressure making the speaker sound tight without the sound of mass making the speaker sound small. It's a different world for me but since my conversion I can't go back.

I had a few Klipsch and still have the Rebel bookshelf. Forte, Klipschorn. Got very loud but I found the bass mushy and forced. They sound like a blanket is thrown over them compared to MGA.
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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:29 am


Hi Michael and Bob

Bob: you had Klipshorns? I mean the Big Ones? Are these the ones you said were loud but the bass was mushy and forced....had a blanket thrown over them?

And the mini mods beat them? that you say the Minis threw a big stage in a 14ft x 28 ft room! If this came from any other manufacturer other than Mr Green, I would dismiss it, even regard it as disinformation.

But I have been too long experiencing the Tune with Michael and I trust him. But Sonic still needs to take this in.

Bob and Michael: the other thing that complicates mini monitors are the stands and some are phenomenally expensive, nearly doubling the price of the set up.
What are the best stands for the Mini Mods?

Michael: your comments on my recent posts please.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:01 am

Hi Sonic

I'm sure Bob will respond later about the Klipsch cause he was here tonight and I asked. His basic answer to me was that his first real experience to listening for real has been since he put in his current system which I have to tell you sounds shocking. Honestly you look at the little setup and go really Shocked It's one of those setups that you hate to do anything to tweak it further cause right now you can play anything and sit through the whole piece of music without flinching.

I'll let him tell the rest, but yes, he had the big ones.

a. I'm using the \ / in my listening currently and usually come back to it after experimenting with other setups. Does this mean it is better or worse? No it just means that there is a magic to the \ / when certain other things are in balance like space and tonality. I also use the tri sometimes if someone is having a problem with images being too big. Sometimes I open things up so much that they tend to get spacially out of control and the tri helps to settle that down.

b. something in your system is stuck on "f". Interestingly I have found this to happen a lot with speakers (even panels). Not saying this is the case but I have heard boxes or panels sound off before if the pressure in the room hits a certain node probably caused by something up chain. Or it could be a resonate tone of the speakers themselves. That is a big panel you know and has it's own resonance. Q? Does this happen to just certain music? Another Q? Does this happen when you play "f" on your guitar? If your guitar freaks you know for sure it's in the room.

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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:20 am


Hi Michael

Its in the room....when I play the guitar, not too bad or noticeable but if I sound that note with a recorder or voice then everything honks big time. When playing music thru the speakers, the "f" is not noticeable on complex music at all (you won't even know there is a problem) but on solo voice, it stands out if that pitch is hit.

What is getting to me is still the BOO!

My test for room acoustics is to pick up something and read it aloud. I sound like I am in a bathroom. The music is good though but knowing there are these resonances in my room is getting to me. Part of me says "the music is coloured" another side says "the music is good!" My latest urge is to haul out all the EchoTunes, PZCs, DTs everything I can get my hands on, pull out the stops and kill off that overhang.

Sonic



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PostSubject: Re: BOO   Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:52 pm

Hey, Sonic,

The answer is obvious to me. If you have a BOO, then you have a GHOST! Laughing

Last fall, when I switched my room around to its current configuration, with the speakers in the middle of the room's length, I was immediately struck by something similar, a brief echo. I moved the speakers closer to my chair, around the 1/4 point of the room's length. With dipoles, this reproduced the same effect I had when sitting on the long wall, i.e. everywhere I turned my head, the sound was sure to follow. Thus, if listening to a mono signal, it spake back to me from every wall surface. It didn't harm stereo imaging, though, so maybe it's not necessary for mono signals to sit directly at room center. Mr. Green said that even mono recordings should have depth.

Anyway, after some time, I put the speakers back at room length center again and now I didn't not notice that echo. Perhaps it was the removal of the ceiling tiles that alleviated this? I didn't do anything else different, besides using a couple of tiles as ersatz RTs.

Do I have any answers here? ME? No, just food for thought. I will say that occasionally I feel that I may have too many acoustical devices in the room, despite its size. Other times, maybe not enough, or, at least, not enough of the good stuff (MGD).

Doesn't what about bob have a concrete room? He seems to have conquered it. And I believe Mr. Green had one in his Nashville apartment days. Perhaps you should dive into the archives and see how he worked on that room. Something may click that you can use/adapt.

Robert
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PostSubject: Re: Restoration Road   Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:47 pm

A ton of this goes back to the audiophile brain wash days when they say you shouldn't have a live sounding room. Problem with that is if the room is dead you hear music disappear. At first it sounds like more focus but after a while you notice that the spices are missing in the meal. It's all a part of having 6 walls.

How do I bring down my noise level without dampening?

We all know that the more dampening we use the more the music is absorbed.

So how do we get rid of what we feel is extra energy without killing the sound?

Diffusion and trapping. I'm not referring to tube traps or anything that is a dampener using the name of trapping in vein. I'm talking about resonators, and wall diffusers (sound shutters) and in room diffusers (areoplanes). But, let me give warning, anything you put in the room has a sound and you will hear their sound in the music. So I recommend anything put in the room to be voiced to sound like music.

You guys may or may not remember when I came out with acoustical crown molding. It became too costly to continue for me but the concept was cool. Another thing that I did and still do from time to time is put up seam voicers. Their angled ribs that I voice and go up in the seams where a wall meets another wall, or floor or ceiling. They do 2 things. One, they limit the flow from the laminar energy that travels along the seam, and 2 they voice that energy.

I bring this up because I have done rooms where I got rid of the boo altogether by just using diffusion tools.

I'll make a few for one of my rooms and give a description. I've been wanting to voice the seams in the small room a little more any way.

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