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 My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...

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jdparker



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PostSubject: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:29 am

Hi Michael,
Here are some shots of my living room/listening room. I share the space with my girlfriend so I unfortunately don't have the absolute final say, but I can add just about anything I want. The problem is, so can she!!! Rolling Eyes
Anyway, my construction, like most homes here in Hawaii, is single wall (paper thin) construction. This is the upstairs portion of a duplex and there is someone living below. The floor is berber carpet with padding underneath, and the ceiling is some kind of gypsum/drywall. The walls are possibly 5/8" wooden planks. There are numerous square cubby hole shelves built into the living room, some are full wall height and some or only partial. I'm not really too sure how these effect the sound as I am trying to learn much more about all this.
The room opens up on one side(as you can see in the last pic) into my dining room which has 2 more access doors to our lanai (balcony) with a wooden dining table and ceramic tile flooring. The door that you see in picture 1 (that is white and on the right side of the room) is always left open. The blue door in front of that is my front door, which is left open during the day and closed at night. I only rent so I cannot make any serious changes to the home. I'm not sure if you can see the subwoofer but it is to the extreme left when sitting on the couch and it is in the corner under the real palm tree. The coffee table top is a slate/granite top with wooden frame and it is there to stay... affraid
My system:
Perfectwave DAC
Perfectwave CD Transport
Perfectwave Power 5 regenerator
Manley Retro 100 Monoblocks run in triode mode
Sonus Faber Toy Towers
Nordost Red Dawn Interconnects
Nordost Red Dawn Speaker cable
Rel Serie R 528 Subwoofer

I'm not too sure if I want to start taking apart my components at this point (or if the GF would allow that) but I am keeping an open mind!
I love all forms of music but I would say that we both listen primarily to jazz. I really love great definition on the instruments, especially a nice tight sounding drum kit. I noticed only some recordings give me that, but I know that my sound can get much better acoustically. My sub was recently placed on a "Subdude" to isolate it from literally shaking the whole place and really annoying the downstairs neighbor. I noticed that to hear it the way I really wanted (even in the mix) I had to turn it up to a point that shook the floor... thats why the subdude/subdued! There must be another approach to getting that perfect sound!!! Thanks for any insight!







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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:33 am

Hi jdparker

Welcome to the Tune! Come right in and you'll find many ideas that can help make good music out of all but the most restricted homes.

One thing your girlfriend may find quite acceptable is how the cavities in the shelves can be tuned -- bamboo or wood blinds over the shelves or part of them and floor standing devices like the DecoTunes with art covers to barricade round the speakers and listening area. In short, Mr Green has the tools to make your room work.

Sonic
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jdparker



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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:07 am

Thanks Sonic! I'm looking forward to learning a lot! study
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PostSubject: WELCOME!   Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:57 pm

Hi JD,

Welcome to the Zone! We'll discuss your room/system on your thread here, and feel free to peruse the other areas of the Zone and see how others tune their rooms.


jocolor jocolor

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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:26 am

Hi JD

First off I want to tell you I love the look of your pad. I also love that both of you listen. Man cave listening rooms are extremely cool but having a place where you both can listen is very extremely cool. I recommend both to people who can do it.

Here's the magic of the tune, it's tunable. There is an answer to all sound if we unlock the signal to allow it to happen. The key phrase for me so far in your post is "I noticed only some recordings give me that". This is where I come in. I don't look at your components as components, I look at the entire system as a signal conduit that is either letting the music develop or shutting the music down. Typically in high end audio most components focus on the shutting down of music to the point to where the music is no longer expressing itself to the fullest. On TuneLand I throw out the rule book and look at the signal from a mechanical, electrical and acoustical point of view.

What is your system doing right and what would you like your system to be doing even better? How is signal making it's way through the system's parts and presenting itself when it gets to the air? Then, how does the air pressure sound to your ears?

Here's what I have noticed with every high end system I have ever heard. Each part in the signal path was tweaked to an individuals taste far away from where I am and when I get it in my place it sounds nothing like the reports the components designer described it as. It also sounds nothing like the reviewer described it. Why? Because the components are only parts and the signal is vibration that wants to express itself by developing a full range of musical notes (fundamentals and harmonics). What are some of the things that keep the signal from developing? Rubber, tie wraps, tight screws, compressed mass, too much circuitry, dampening, electromagnetic shielding and lack of and a few others. Most designers push dampening instead of unavailing which becomes problematic for the end user who wishes to hear the expansion of the music content which is what amplification is all about. We are taking a vibrating signal and making it loud enough to hear through the use of vibrating parts. When we over dampen these parts we loose signal and cause distortion.

There is a balance that must be found between too little vibration and to much vibration. Either side of this value is distortion, and our job is to find where you have too little and too much and tune in that balance. The balance is something that is going to be unique to your setup but we can turn you into the master of that system. If you don't mind lets take a field trip. Sit in your chair and listen a minute. Now while the music is playing slowly stand up till you get to the height where the music sounds the most open and fully developed. Now walk directly in between your speakers with the music playing and tell me if you can hear a sound stage or if the sound is coming directly from the speakers. One more thing, walk around the room and house and tell me where the music sounds the fullest to you. These 3 things are going tell me a ton about your setup and based on this we can start playing with shaping the sound.

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jdparker



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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:39 am

Hi Michael,
Thanks. Very comfortable room. We have a modern Bali theme thing going on, that my GF wants to make sure doesnt get affected. No It is definitely nice that my other enjoys good sounds too though! My system does provide excellent bass depending on the area you're listening from.(even without the Sub) The two opposing corners seem to be very pressurized.(the front left corner and the rear right corner) For now I'm listening without the Subwoofer. Also the best sound to my ears seems to be coming from about 3 feet forward of my normal sitting area, and a little higher up than I normally listen. It sounds best and the most surrounding/enfulfing at about 65 inches high or about my standing level(6'2"). As I move forward about 3 to 4 feet from normal it balances the mids/treble/bass better as well, then as I move forward again and the bass increases and there's a spot just before in between the speakers that sounds good again, then dead between the speakers it seems to get too bassy and the stage flattens out. So the best spots I would say are about 3 feet from the couch forward, then again JUST before the speaker's front baffles.
I'm playing Pink Floyd The Wall, so that album pretty much sounds great anywhere, but it seems like it is coming from the speakers with just a little bit of a soundstage. It doesn't really seem to extend out past the speakers very much... just a little. It sounds really good when I'm standing in my doorway to the right of the couch, with the door propped open like it always is. I also took some of the pillows out of the cubby hole shelving that I had in there and it seemed to open up the sound a little more.
That corner by the door sounds good and pressurized. I hope this helps describe how it sounds a little better?
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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:18 am

Hi JD

The pillows that you are talking about, is that what I am looking at in the upper shelving in pic 1? What are those pillows?

By what you are saying so far, your room is somewhat close to being in balance but your components and speakers are struggling getting the sound out of the speakers and into the room. Your room is producing good bottom end with or without the sub. This is telling me we have an electrical/speaker mismatch or problem. With The Wall the soundstage should be pretty big with tons of info all over the place and hardly any in the speakers themselves.

With your room being some what fixed it will only help with the signal before it so much, the rest is up to the components and speakers. If the room were wide open without many objects on flat walls it could help the electronics to sound more full, but by what you are telling me they are at least at this point causing blockage and being weak links.

Before we go too far in this talk though I would like to try one thing. Do you have any extra RoomTune? If so I would like to hear one placed right behind your TV. If your room has extra energy to help your center fill one of the spots is right there. If you don't hear a pretty big change when you put one there it means your electronics and speakers definitely have blockage. If you get a decent improvement we might be able to find a few other magic room spots.

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jdparker



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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:06 pm

Hi Michael,
Those Pillows were put in there for no particular reason, just playing with their effect. I think they were having the opposite effect that I wanted... They are standard soft velour throw pillows. I have since taken them out.
I definitely notice the sub when I turn it on, but for now I was trying to tune without it. I didn't feel it was lacking in bass without it, but it hits nice tight and deep when I turn it on and mix it in well. (problem is the neighbor downstairs and not getting her riled up)
Regarding the listening, I realized that the outside painters were making quite a ruckus and I had an inside fan blowing due to on overflowed planter I'm trying to dry. Hardly the right time to make critical sound conclusions for me! No
So Listened again today, and there was a little more clarity. The sound extends out beyond the speakers just a little though still. Not something that made me say wow.. And "The Wall" (Like you said) is usually a "Wow" recording it seems.
Next I tried the "Roomtune" behind the TV. I definitely noticed what I would describe as a boost or an increased clarity overall. Then I tried a room tune above the TV at the ceiling seam and one corner tune in the corner with the big palm.(front left upper corner) and it seemed to open it up a little more...
So that is where I'm at right now.. I'm not really quite sure of my speaker placement... Is that something I should just try to move around and take note? scratch I'm going to take the rubber feet off my components and give a listen...
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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:58 am

Very good! The key to this for me is hearing you talk about the changes. This lets me know what your setup is doing.

Removing the rubber is good. What you are putting underneath them is crucial. When you read through TuneLand you will see a road map to opening things up. The more you do this the more you will have control over the signal path. Hopefully as you open parts and pieces up you will continue to hear the sound stage grow in size and air. This is telling you that you have a ton of music that wants to play. It may or may not sound better at each step but it is a must for a big full stage. Once things do open up you will have much more energy to tune in.


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jdparker



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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:39 am

Hi Michael,
I've been taking some time out from my questions for you, and trying to read many of the posts and ideas. It sounds like this is a lifetime of trial and error. Thats okay. It's just very tough to know where to start.
I guess the Roomtunes seem like a great place to begin tweaking. My room has opened up considerably placing them in the generic locations you suggest.(and one behind my flat screen) Do you think I should attempt to cover up all the alcoves and wooden box shelving? Are those sound eaters? Or do they ever create any kind of pressure zones themselves?
After I have those(the Roomtunes) dialed in to where they seem to work best, is there another route to begin with? Do you think speaker placement is the next step of tweaking? Or should I play around with taking the tops off my components? Remove the barrels on my interconnects? I thought they were there for shielding? So many questions but I guess I will just take things slowly and deliberately and try to take notice of the sound it is creating...
Your insight is definitely a great learning experience...
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jdparker



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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:42 am

Oh yeah.... the sound. Has widened a little bit beyond the speakers but isn't' quite "surprising" me and making me look way out beyond the speaker yet. I have mostly gained more space and air vertically and the sound doesn't completely come from only the speakers anymore. It has widened a little.
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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:47 am

Hi JD

Here's what I'm seeing. I think that the shelving can be used if tuned so that each one becomes a bit of a diffuser of some kind. This may take ages but is something I would have fun with. First though I would start with setting books (standing up with cover facing you) in them one at a time to see what they did. That is hard cover books and or clay pottery. Clay plates on wooden holders also work good. I have a bunch of pier 1 wooden plate displays here that I set clay plates or tiles on.

Second, I would get Picasso interconnects and Bare Essence wire and Magic Wood Cable Grounds to open your signal path up. This will be a huge jump and tell you how your speakers and electronics are doing.

At that point you could jump into your electronics and speaker platforms. I would look at converting my equipment housing unit into a tuning tool (still keeping the look) and take a good look at my speakers to see how I can open them up or maybe having a different speaker that opened up things a little more.

Have you loosened your electrical outlets yet on your wall? If you can run me through your electrical system from the fuse box to the components (pics always help) and lets set this run free.

So here is a lot to think about and plenty to try. Before you start spending money with me though you might want to try a few of the free tweaks to get comfortable with heading in the tuned direction. Once it starts you will be hooked.

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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:36 pm

Okay, thats sounds great. That is also plenty to chew on... Here are some pics of my system and the front wall. You can see how shallow a room it is but it is also very wide and open on one end. I have read that this kind of configuration can be made to sound excellent, so I'm looking forward to getting dirty!
From what I've seen, there appears to be room for a tunable system rack in my existing component location. I can't really have all sorts of crazy bare wires run everywhere, so I kinda have to be halfway conventional as this is all setup in my living room. My GF said... "You're not going to turn our house into Sanford & Son are you?" No Pretty funny, but I think she meant it. So I'm looking forward to pushing the envelope with you until she shuts me down.... cheers cheers














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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:50 pm

Just to see if this type of setup is possible. I'm not sure if the other side of the cab can be used but if so is this a doable look?



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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:20 pm

Hi JD

Also want to give you a glance (temptation is a horrible thing) at the tunable amps stands. They come in platform models or we can go all out with the signature stands shown.



The Manley's would love these.

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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:19 am

Hello!
So I've been playing around with some big glass covered pictures I had hanging around, by placing them around the room trying to cover up different section of the strange shelving... I'm convinced that the box shelves are sound eating machines. In almost every instance, the glass picture livened up the sound in one way or another. So I feel I've got to cover these shelves.
Sonic (I believe) had a great recommendation of using bamboo blinds or sheets. This could work great however I have the woman to consider and she hates rattan and wicker stuff (bamboo included). Michael suggested ceramic plates, but I kinda hate the look of plates myself. Laughing
I think I should consider getting into some DecoTunes. Does anyone have any experience with them? The great part, if they work well, would be that they are movable and look a little more modern for the living space. Because this isn't my man cave, I have to consider these things unfortunately... queen
Does anyone know of someone who has these in stock and maybe has a good selection of art to choose from?
I also really noticed how much of a difference the rear firing portion of the loudspeakers effect the wrapping around of the sound. When I face the speakers with the vents/ports facing into the shelving.... nothing and rather unlively. When I face them into the solid glass portion of my front door, or when I pull the drapes back and fire the ports into the hard glass of the windows, they come alive and I see/hear a little more sound coming from around the speakers... I hope I'm on to something....
I'd love to see some more pics of the proposed Tuning rack for the PS components! Unfortunately I think my indoor palms are hiding my sound as well, but they are here to stay I'm informed! No
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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:02 am


Hi jdparker

Sonic uses DecoTunes in my set up. They sit somewhere between the FS-Deluxe RoomTunes which have more acoustic absorption and the FS-Pressure Zone Controllers that have the best balance and tuneability between wood-flavoured diffusion and absorption. For their price the DTs are effective but in terms of "strength" the FS-PZCs are tops in my system.

The wood front and the brass tuning bolt of the FS-PZC also looks good and may suit your aesthetics. Your system sitting in the middle of the room may benefit from barricading, using FS-PZCs or FS-DTs, to keep the pressure zones near and around you and your gear to build the soundstage and ambeince zone.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:43 pm

Hi JD

It doesn't take long to do the DecoTunes. I can do custom art and sizes as well but recommend staying in the easy to ship sizes. If you look at show pictures you can see the different colors we have done but really we can do almost any look.

In your case I might recommend my SoundStages. Their like a FS PZC but have a solid side frame to give you even more control and tonality.

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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:23 am

Thank you Sonic and Michael for your input on the PZC's. I'm currently reading up on all the info, options and methods of attack! Thanks...
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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:02 pm


under the manley


PS Audio setup


from the computer to the system


left corner of the room


power to the rel


Rel's outlet


mac in office

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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:37 pm


rear left of room, into open area


back of Rel sub


left view


middle view


right view


left amp


left amp cable


wire to speaker left side


PS Audio DAC


Right Manley


closer right view


rear right, looking toward computer room


rear wall


RoomTunes on left wall




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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:38 pm


DAC and brains


another look


close up


PS Audio power plant


PS Audio transport


system outlet

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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:42 am

I took apart the PS DAC and the PS Powerplant even further. I took off the nut, cover and washer's as well as crack open every nut or screw I could easily access. Anything that looked like it was a ground, I kept firmly contacted. All the outlets on the rear of the power unit were loosened up similar to the wall outlet although they were unable to be set completely free.
I know this whole unit is causing blockage, but I wanted to see how much ground could be gained by doing this. As a matter of fact, it free'd up the sound even more and resulted in another small soundstage increase and clarity. The biggest change was still the first one without the tops and loosening all the screws of both the transport and the DAC. I also took the two sides off of each unit as well. Everything I did, was done very carefully and labeled so I can easily put it all back as it was if needed.
I think I'm ready for the cables and the stands to see what can still be achieved with my current components stripped down. I'd like to go through this process for myself to see if I'm happy with the end result, or I need to dive into the lighter parts and ditch the PS stuff.
I know my cables are a complete mess, so I'd like to go with the stands that would support all 3 of the PS components. Maybe even a fourth level to the component stands so that I can possibly set up a Mac mini for the server as well? I'm ready for any kind of concept for this when you're ready! I can fully use either side of my built in entertainment center. The only difficult obstacle may be all the cables that have to feed everything. It may be able to be done carefully separating all the cables, but the cables would have to be playable and stiff so as to maintain their positioning away from each other while at the same time powering everything: (TV,Cable box, Blu-ray, Router, DAC, Transport, PowerPlant, Mac Mini?)
I also cracked all the small allen head bolts on the Manleys at the same time. I think this contributed to the small improvement in sound along with the other components. It was impossible to tell which made the most difference, because I did it all at the same time...
Yes, I like what it is doing to the sound! In addition, I also play guitar and have a nice hollow body guitar with dual pickups. I loosened my pickup rings, and presto!!! An incredible gain in vibration and sound. I can't believe I didn't pick up on this before. Its so basic... But a total improvement. Not just a small one either...
I'm ready for some stands and cables!
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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:44 pm

Great Exclamation Wow, nice big steps. This is going to change quite a bit over the next few days.

I'll email you and get those cables started.

Do I have a pic of the mac mini?

In my email I want to break every thing down and figure out placement.

Yep, I love doing guitars, major difference!

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PostSubject: Re: My living room/listening room with strange box shelving and random doors...   Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:45 pm

A look at what is, but what is about to become tuned.





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