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 Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics

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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:21 pm

Hi Sonic

One area to maybe look at is when the blocks are used on top of things. The vibration that is upward from components is different than those going down. Remember that gravity pulls downward so as things shake out and settle if you have too much mass above touching something the effect can be bigger than if a small tuning rod is coming down touching the top.

For me when I use a block on top of components it's a little much.

just something to look at

 Wink 

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:43 am


Hi Zonees

It might just be that Sonic can go back to the placement of my FS-DTs as in the first picture of Sonic's May 30 post on this thread. I might have isolated what the problem is and while the placement of Low Tone redwood blocks on top of things are part of the problem as Michael suggested, there is more. For now Sonic would like to let some settling occur before saying we have a fix.

Nevertheless the volume is up and there is absence of clumping of images round speaker positions which are always signs of some Tunes done properly.

Since Sunday night, Sonic has heard a 1968 recording on Hungarian Qualiton of Tartini's Concerto for Cello in D major, Vivaldi's Symphony in G major, Corelli's Christmas Concerto -- Hungarian Chamber Orchestra, Vilmos Tatrai cond. Vera Denes on Cello.

Then a Radio Canada international recording of string quartets by modern Canadian composers -- J Papineau-Countre, M Coulombe-Saint Marcoux and A Gagnon performed by Quatuor Classique de Montreal and Four Trumpet Suites by Telemann (all in D major - not that the good Georg Philipp had no imagination...he may have had no choice...back then, the trumpets were valveless so the selection of keys and the use of any chromaticisms were somewhat curtailed), Deutsche Bachsolisten on MHS (W Basch, A Oesterle, O Blasaditsch trumpets and H Winschermann dir).

This is sounding promising  Very Happy 

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:23 am

Hi Michael and Zonees

Sonic got things sounding right and possibly better than before. My FS-DTs flanking the Clampracks are back like where they were on May 30, parallel to the front walls and 40½ inches from the R and L side walls.

What went wrong? The answer may be complicated but Sonic thinks it is something like this – the Low Tone redwood blocks settle at a slow rate, and possibly at different rates for heavy and light blocks and depending on what they are placed under or over.

Sonic possibly piled them onto the system too fast. Now each tune has its own settling rate depending on the materials involved. In the end the tunes one after another with the Low Tone Redwood blocks settling differently probably caused everything to clog up when I moved the FS-DTs into the parallel position.

So the reset helped but for the Tune to return and advance further, Sonic had to go back a few steps:

a.   substitute the clusters of four Low Tone Redwood blocks under each of the two main amp toroidal transformers (three below and two above) with three matt Harmonic Springs per transformer.

b.   substitute the three Low Tone Redwood blocks under the Subwoofer Amp with three MW blocks.  The Low Tone Redwood block on the Subwoofer Amp toroidal transformer is removed because Michael said that the effect of a Low Tone Redwood block on top of something might be too much even for his system.

c.   substitute the two Low Tone Redwood blocks supporting the X-30, replaced by three matt Harmonic Springs.

d.   place three ¾” diameter brass washers under the Low Tone Redwood block (this is based on a  suggestion Michael offered Hiend001) that is supporting the transformer of the Quicksilver preamp, the preamp choke placed a MW piece instead of a Low Tone Redwood block.

Here's what things appear like now:



This got everything sounding great again and the new placement of the FS-DTs is projecting voices and instruments towards me, good width and the tonality is great with neutral shift in toneSonic now has enough Low Tone Redwood blocks in reserve to either re-introduce gradually at the pace I have seen is required for these devices or be placed elsewhere in my room/system.

And Zonees can guess that Sonic has already got ideas for this! But this experience has shown me how much slower Sonic needs to go in applying the Low Tone Redwood blocks.

Playing Lester Young with the Oscar Peterson Trio (Verve CD), J S Bach’s Cantatas 49 and 50 (Nikolaus Harnoncourt, Concentus Musicus Wein – Telefunken, Edward Cohen’s Quintet for Clarinet and String Quartet/Eleanor Cory’s Profiles and Apertures (CRI LP),  Mozart K.581 and Weber Op.34 Clarinet Quintets – Gervase de Peyer with members of the Melos Ensemble of London (EMI).

A few days on from Monday and the soundfield is getting big, plangent and “everywhere”.  Good again!

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:19 am

You know settling is such a big deal. One of Jim Bookhard's main tweaks lets remember. I try to move very slow in my listening. When "harmonic compression" starts I stop right where I'm at, and either go back to basics or let it sit. Learning how to watch for settling is very key. One I will do my walk by the speaker test and two I listen to the soundstage wall in the front to see if it's closing in or opening up.

If you look to the very back of the stage in any recording it is either going to be bigger than the front or smaller. You want it to be bigger horizontally and many times vertically as if the stage is growing. Keep in mind your only hearing part of it's size so the stage walls should feel like their pushing out. Always keep in mind while listening how notes are spherical and so should be the stage pushing out in all directions.

Here's a trick, if you get the rear hall bigger than the front, the front will come into focus more. Most of the time people focus on the front of the stage, not me, I push for the back. If I get the back going things come up and all around me. The notes go as much front to back and up and down as sideways. The Blocks done correctly do excellent at front to back.

"soundfield is getting big"

This is number one in my book, and is probably why I am an extreme nearfield guy. I've done it with the other fields, but far easier for the lazy man to go extreme.

The other fields have to have the pressure zones even in order to give the deep stage. That's why I know looking at systems if someone is fibbing about their depth. If a pressure zone is collapsed it pulls the other ones down with it and the stage shrinks. It may be super focused but a lot of music is missing. For those who have rooms that we make changes to, even simple ones like move around CD's or anything, it's a good idea to go around once in a while and check the zones. If you have one any where in the room that sounds like a flat tire, open it up and watch what happens to the rest of the zone. They'll sound like your filling a tire.

Signal settling, more energy into the room. Room in balance, endless stage. Endless stage, focus throughout the layers.

Also try to make the notes as big front to back as side to side. I mention this but a lot of times we get into this flat screen sound even if it is layering and this is not what the recording is doing. A recording is thick not thin with it's notes. That's another thing I look for in settling. If my notes sound oval shape to me I know the system is not settled into a good harmonic state.

Well I probably didn't answer anything with my rambling but I sure am tired now. Just saw it's almost 6am. Time to nap  Sleep 

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:48 am

A question Michael:

I am using T1 cables (MGD of course) for my MG1.5QRs, that means one sold core wire for the + terminal and one for the - terminal.

Is it possible to go "over thin"?

Will there be speakers and systems that have not been tuned enough that will sound better instead with T2 (two strands + and -) or T3 (three strands + and -).

What are the sound characteristics of a system that has gone too thin too fast?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:30 am

Absolutely, that's why I made all 3. Because you have fields in your system you need to match them up the best you can. It's not just a matter of signal flow. It's also a matter of mating the fields. When you twist a cable your making a field. With 1 soild core the field goes around and off of the cable, and the on coming fields are either going to be attracted enough to circle around the cable in harmony, or it will jump on board and travel down it like an antenna. The different types are so you can match up the fields. It's nice to have a system that can do type one, cause it's so simple, but there are times I can hear when I'd rather have type 2 or 3 so I had yet another thing to help me tune in the energy. Type 2 or Type 3 doesn't mean one is better than the others. It means it can be worse if you have the twist too tight or too loose. Or it can be better if the fields around your system are too active and are jumping rides. Fields man, they can screw with you. Every part in your system is giving off a charge. Think about it. Look at all those power plants. Anything that has a coil of any kind is a field generator. Well I guess anything that vibrates is a field generator. The whole idea that the audiophiles had in dampening the fields is understandable. They thought they were stopping the fields, unfortunately for them energy needs fields to stay in balance.

Listen to your mid-highs. Do they ever bark at you? The mid highs are the easiest place to hear if your system is out of electromagnetic balance. When in balance there is a cushion of air around the upper harmonics. When the fields are not getting along you will hear this bark, like this flash of audio lightening shot at you. It's like the music is playing then crack that note or several notes hit that sound like the highs moved toward you just a little and glared. The same sound can happen with mechanical tension but a field imbalnce sound more like lightening cracking.

Another sound that can develope from the fields is all of a sudden the bass is gone, like someone pulled the outlet out of the subwoofer. Three things can cause this to happen. One again tension in a transfer, two a pressure zone collapses and three a field is out of balance. But here's the trick if you listen to this while it happens enough you can tell which it is.

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:47 am

Oh another thing I keep meaning to tell you. When you took the transformers out of the components did you ever straighten out the wires? Instead of having partial twist in them did you straighten those out? And on the QS and Rotel they don't have cables tie wrapped close to the chassis do they?

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:12 pm


Hi Michael

If a newbie to the Tune (after applying 4 Corner Tunes and 2 EchoTunes in the room) wants to change audiophile grade speakercables named after a New England University for cables by Michael Green, where to start -- T3, T2 or T1? In this case, lets say Magneplanar MMGs driven by 60 watt tube monoblocks.

On your other questions:

a. the wires to my transformers are untwisted and straightened

b. all cable ties in the Rotel and QS have been removed and all cables unbundled or loosened as far as can be done. But there are wires that touch the chassis in spots or run along it.

What are you getting at/thinking of?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:25 pm

Nothing really was just thinking about when I had my Quick Silver and Rotel. If I remember correctly there was some awkward cable runs and some of them with a thick jacket around cables and a lot of twisted cables. I had mine recabled. My Rotel was in a fairly light chassis, but I did have my 2 QS put in light gauge cabs, but those were easy to get back then, you could order the gauge of metal and type of finish. I put a few of my amps and pres in those chasses. You could order them with holes and everything. I use real big light weight ones.

That's a no brainer, medium twist Type 2, or if he had a lot of components super loose twist Type 3. I'd have him listen for 6 months, then twist the cable one way or another and tell me what he heard. Then once he had an idea I would have him play with the binding post and report back, then some cable ground tricks. Then I'd have him match his interconnect and electronics cables to work together.

We would work our way through the whole system using 3 or 4 recordings only. Every time he would hit a block we would work around it by going back to start, till we figured out what they should do.

But keep in mind most people don't buy my stuff and want to take my course so I have learned to wait till they ask. I go very slow and deliberate, and it has to be someone who is willing to play the same music a long time.

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:18 am


Hi Michael

Makes sense your recommendation for the MMGs. I'll see if the owner wants to buy the cables, maybe piggyback my next order.

In Sonic's case, given where my system is now and the tuning I have done, do you think my use of T1 for the MG1.5QRs is too thin?

My midrange/lower treble range is very smooth, never barks. The bass is flat down to about 80hz but the lowest bass in the 60Hz and below range is thin and needs reinforcement from the Janis W-1.

Would more strands bring back the bass to the Magneplanars so I can have a simpler system without the complexity of the X-30 crossover filters, Rotel amp and the Janis W-1 subwoofer?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:38 pm

Hi Sonic

I'm going to give you my very first reaction. What is in the bookcase behind you? The way you described the sound it almost sounds like not a cable issue as a pressure zone one. If that book case is not going full range and it's right behind your head it could be limiting the the lower notes. Take a look at people who are using a SAM wall or their resonant back wall. My gut is telling me that you are not getting everything out of the pressure area you have created behind you. If this is where you are storing music or books I'm sure of it. If they are empty we can move on but if not I think we should do an experiment and empty them out just to hear if we have gotten everything out of the zone that we can. Reason I say this is because if the sound is what you describe the Type 1 is doing it's job. The mid highs would be the first place you should hear of the Type 1 is not doing it's thing. Not saying that the T2 or T3 wouldn't give you more or less.

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:43 am

What’s Sonic Listening To?




People Past and Present

John Donne 1572 – 1631

Devised by Douglas Cleverdon with Carleton Hobbs, William Squire and Robert Spencer (Baritone and Lute)

Argo ZPL1167 1972 ©

A beautiful record of readings from Izaak Walton’s ‘Life of John Donne’ along with poems and prose from John Donne interspersed with song accompanied by lute.

Sonic likes the spoken word played back on my system. For audiophiles who listen to solely to singing voices, the reproduction of the spoken word may come as sounding as something they are unaccustomed to.  

In this recording the two principal spoken voices are placed ¾ Right and ¾ Left. Sung music with lute is placed the centre of the stage, yet the width and height are unbounded. Inflection of the voices and characteristics of the reader captured realistically. The voices are dimensional and pleasing without added presence or overdramatic puffiness.
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:29 am

Hi Michael

Indeed the bass constriction in Sonic’s system might be due to the bookshelves being not empty.  Situation is the bookcases have books and papers and CDs and things on every shelf but they are very empty meaning each shelf is more than 2/3 air.  

I could unload the shelves but the stuff has to go somewhere and putting them in another part of my dwelling is not permitted such are my restrictions of space I am afraid. So I am leaving things as they are till I can think up alternatives because buying more Ikea Lack shelves and transferring the items over is possibly not something that Michael would think good.

Anyway the sound has come back after last Friday’s post. Another week and images are getting bigger.

This week Sonic initiated payment for my next order of two platforms -- a tunable one for the Rega P5 and a non-tunable one for the CD player along with an order for a new canopy to go over the Sony.

It will take a couple of months before delivery but it will be worth the wait.

Meanwhile, Sonic just made this move – Low Tone Redwood blocks directly supporting the amp with three AAB1x1 cones.



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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:26 pm

Hi Sonic

Yes, my gut tells me there is some sound left in those bookcases. I always try to listen to my gut.

I'm looking forward to the report on the LTR/cone amp tune.

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:40 am

Hi Michael

It sounds promising…but we never know….in a week of settling things will be clearer, but what is your gut feeling?

As to Sonic’s gut feeling, I agree there might be more music in the Bookcases. What say you, I buy two more Ikea EXPEDIT shelvings like what I house my records in at both ends of the Bookcases, place them against my rear wall at each side of the cabinet for the CDs and move everything from the Bookcases into them so the Bookcases are empty?
Unfortunately there will be no “net loss” of mass from the room but the Bookcases will be free. Comments?

One thing Sonic is working towards is now that I got the Rega P5 to play my LP and EPs, there is still a 100 or more SPs that I need a means to playing now that I moved the Audio Technica AT LP120 out of the system. Of course I could build another system in another part of my dwelling but Sonic has only got that much space units and different expressions of existence within my dwelling.

An idea Sonic is entertaining is to have the Audio Technica AT LP120 and Stanton coarse groove cartridge feed a preamp that sends the playback to the Quicksilver with the SP playback table and preamp sited close to Sonic’s listening chair, with a secondary volume control near me so I don’t have to run across the room every two to three minutes to adjust playback volumes. I may also use this table with its detachable headshell to play the 45 rpm EPs so Sonic doesn’t not have to jump up every two to three minutes per side of a 78 rpm disc and about 5 minutes per EP side.

With Michael’s guidance and my experience for sure I won’t do a Japanese set up where there several pairs of speakers and systems that share a room. I tried this and Michael warned that I would hear the effect and I did. So I would go multi-source but everything through one speaker system that is tuned. Wondering what turntable rack might I use that is sonically innocuous….an Ikea LACK table perhaps ….there is a Mana Acoustic turntable stand for sale but the metal and mass gives Sonic pause.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:44 am

Hi Zonees

Sonic has finally got good results from the Cardboard Tube.  Placed like this in the RH corner, this Tube has given an even L to R soundstage compensating for the Janis W-1 in the LH corner. Tip my hat to Hiend001 for this Tune.



The support for the main amp using three low Tone Redwood blocks with AAB1x1 cones under the Michael Green hemlock shelf is still going well.



Sonic is now listening to Brian Eno’s Ambient #4 On Land – a CD that gives a wide and often enveloping sphere of musick round me. Artificial space effects perhaps but nevertheless very nice for a brain trip….

Michael, have you or other Zonees experienced Brian Eno’s Ambient Music?  I got Ambient #1 Music for Airports and like it a lot.

The Tune Instinct seems to be telling Sonic that it is time to put the cones back on the ends of rods of the two MG Clamp Racks, points resting on the Low Tone Redwood blocks.  

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:28 pm

Hi Sonic

I don't know where my Eno is. Might be in Ohio or Chicago. I should find it and check it out in this room.



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PostSubject: Eno   Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:02 pm

Michael,

You should pick up your Eno as he was sort of pioneer. I was lucky to pick up 500 lps from a record producer's estate which included all Eno's work on lp. Sonic, I must pull these lps and listen.
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:57 pm

Hey, Tunesters,

 I loves me some Eno, particularly his stuff from the 70s and 80s. That man has done a truckload of collaborations, also. Worth checking out if it can be found is his second collaboration with the German duo known as Cluster (Moebius and Roedelius) titled "After the Heat." I'm not as crazy about their first one together, titled "Cluster & Eno" except for one track I REALLY like titled "Die Bunge."

 The Ambient series didn't go on too long. I believe #4 was the end of the line. He considered the content to be sonic landscapes or some such. Ambient #2 was a collaboration with Harold Budd titled "The Plateaux of Mirror." Ambient #3 was just a fellow playing dulcimer solo.

 Eno was practically the fifth member of the band on Talking Heads' "Remain in Light." He was featured in at least four Bowie releases, the so-called Berlin Trilogy in the 70s (because they were recorded in Berlin) and they later did some work together in the 90s, I think.

 He worked with U2 a lot. They did an experiment of sorts using the alternative band name of "Passengers" which I believe was called "Imaginary Soundtracks." I think my first Eno purchase was the original "Music For Films." Later there was a second "Music For Films" that was only available in a 1983 boxed set. Later still, was "Music For Films III," which also featured others, such as Eno's brother Roger and Daniel Lanois.

 I dig Eno primarily for his instrumental stuff. I am also quite fond of Mike Oldfield for the same reason. I tend to listen to instrumentals more than songs. Mars Lasar, William Aura, Constance Demby, Ray Lynch and Chris Spheeris are some other favorites, all of which I started listening too in the late 80s.

 Sonic, what is that tube standing on? I put my tubes on clothespins for feet. You might try sticking a piece of Mr. Green's wood in or over the top of the tube. I know you will. You'll try anything. And I'm not making fun because I do a lot of stuff, too, but am just too lazy to write about it.

 I did bring the Magnavox player back into the system, but I have the same complaints as before. It doesn't like DVD-Rs and tends to chirp a lot when playing, especially with CD-Rs, which all of my mix CDs are. But, no lie, after listening to the Panasonic Blu-ray player for some time, the Magnavox does tromp on it aurally. If I could just stay awake long enough to enjoy it!

 Robert
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:12 am

Greetings Robert

You are certainly right that Sonic has tried alternatives! I have listened to the cardboard tube with clothespins (like Hiend001, which is why I asked him) and MW blocks too but in my set up/room having the tube resting on the floor worked best of all. With the clothespins there was a cloudiness in the midrange and a small drift towards the Left.

Good you are having some success with the Magnazox, your saying it trounces the Panasonic Blu-Ray player is not lost on Sonic.

Greetings Garp

Congratulations on your haul of records. And Enos are in the lot! My Ambient #1 and #4 are CDs but I am very happy with both of them the way thy play such huge soundfields.

Next up: Sonic is definitely going to put the cones back on the Clampracks. It will be a task to partially disassemble the system...unless I can tighten the hex nuts really tight, lever the racks up, thread the cones on and lower them down on the Low Tone Redwood blocks. Then I loosen the hex-nuts and check that the shelves are level and the shelves are not touching the mild steel rods. Now that might be a plan of sorts.

Sonic

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:06 pm

The Berlin Years

Or as I call them, The Tight Rope Years. Here's a piece of history about Natch  Smile

When I got my opportunity to work in music I was pretty young, and I want to tell you on one hand it was a dream come true in a way for a kid, but in another it was an emotional nightmere cause I knew no one around me who grew up this way. My cousin yes but Doc (Doc Watson) was a lot older than me.  When I was 13 my family moved to the very conservative area of Amish country. From Ft Lauderdale to a town of 521 people for me was pretty wierd. I wanted to be in music, but the rest of my family were normal  Laughing  I played  bluegrass with local bands and listened to my Bowie with my underground friends. At 15 I got the chance to get deeper into music so I jumped at it.  It was a mix between gospel and rock if you can ever picture those two mixing. Not sure I did. I made my 3 gospel LPs, one of them with Elvis's trumpet player.

skipping to the Berlin Years.

The Berlin era was an explosion of personalities that involved a huge movement of musicians by the groves who came in to be a part of it. All walks of music appeared during this scene and with that everything else that comes with rock and experimenal music. To me David Bowie was very cool and on his spiritual journey, as well as some of the other folks like Mick Ronson, who was pretty much my rock father. I never know how to write about this part of my life because it is personal and spiritual and formative, and yet odd. These guys all of them were incredible and I hope I always paint the right picture cause so many have painted different stories from what I saw.

All of these guys to me are genius and in some ways I can hear a small tiny incy bincy piece of me in their stuff.

Cool

I feel the same way when I listen to Atlanta Symphony or the early Criteria sessions.

So Robert thanks for the memories, they were good ones, and ones I can look back on with a smile seeing how they were a part of shaping modern music.

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:49 am

Greetings Robert and Zonees

Like Robert, Sonic has been hard at work and dozing off during at listening sessions. So with limited time in this week to work on the system, I did a few things at one go – not always advisable I admit – but since they are technically along the flow of the Tune, Sonic took the chance.

First, Sonic replaced the cones on the two Clampracks, points spiking on Low Tone Redwood blocks. Then I top tuned the Quicksilver preamp and the X-30 with resitone rods and bright-plated Harmonic Springs from Michael. Very good dimensionality developed in the days following, the centre image is more around the plane of the speakers consistently, or the plane of sound is in a near line across the width of the stage a little further back – just what Sonic prefers. Bass tightened and deepened. Interestingly I found that with forward centre images the apparent width of the soundstage seems slightly narrower but on more thorough listening it is just as wide or more so. This is something Sonic knows about in conventional audiophile speaker systems that have the banana soundstage give the false illusion of depth and width.

In relation the tone in my system, the overall effect of this tuning was to make voices and instruments more “definite” and less “soft” – just like moving from the sound of a soft old tube sound to a high quality transistor amplifier…. OK, Sonic has no desire to start a tube vs transistor debate so it is like alternatively a move from an old tube sound to one of the modern tube amps that are able to deliver bass slam and transients like, but in a slightly different manner, from their high powered transistor counterparts.

So it has been a good week listening (and nodding off).

Now that Sonic has listened to so much digital and analog serially evening after evening, I have to say that both formats have their strengths and I am no longer conscious that “this is digital….that is analog”. Sonic is enjoying the programme and wonderful performances in front of me channeled over long decades and no longer interested in the format per se.

Robert: you are certainly right! Sonic has tried the cardboard tube with clothes pegs and MW blocks but in my set up/room having the tube resting on the floor worked best of all. With the pegs there was a cloudiness in the midrange and a small drift towards the Left.

On your comments about the noises from the player, Sonic is in agreement with you. I found this too in many cheap CD/DVD players after the transport is loosened or lifted from their casing. The plastic transports need coupling to the casing and then damped with rubber feet to the table surface to not rattle and make odd noises.

My caveat: I have no idea how the more expensive and massive CD players would behave when their transports are loosened. Sonic been only working with $50 Sonys, Philips, Samsung and No-name units.

Going further I found that if we prop the casing on cones or springs or separate the transport from the casing more noise can be the result. The worst was an ultra light and cheap Philips that Sonic tuned – I could watch it vibrate and walk across the Clamprack shelf with most CDs! This was observed to a greater or lesser degree on all the inexpensive players in my experience like those Sonic named earlier. With some CDs played, the noise can be heard across my room.

Some history and Sonic's Observation: the old (1980s/1990s) CD players had rigid cast alloy transports and were more massive and of course which cost more. I don’t know how those would tune but Sonic knows that with every new generation of cheap player that I see, the transports have used more plastic and become flimsier.

Now transports are coming without a top bar, just a thin plastic cover where a bearing is sort of mounted underneath like in my Sony blu-ray. That it now gives such good musick when tuned is thanks to Michael and the Tune Method.
At some points in this Tune journey, Sonic wanted to deep six my cheap player, give up and get an audiophile player but I am glad Sonic listened to Michael and persevered….but you should see and hear how even my present player rattled when the transport is lifted and the casing supported on AAB1x1 cones…..

Sonic's Solution:have the transport mounted in the casing but loosen the mounting screws, cut wire tie clips, loosed PCB screws (use Michael Green cabling everywhere possible), remove the four rubber damping pads under the casing and in the exact same spots apply/adhere MW squares using thin double-sided 3M tape.

Perfect! This gave tuneability, got rid of rubber that kills music and stopped the transport vibrating completely  Very Happy 

Sonic


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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:25 pm

Hi Sonic

One of the first things I look for is a linear stage so I'm glad your getting that.  Smile  Banana staging is a sign of too much mass somewhere in the system and many audiophiles go with a pancake stage because whenever they do a setup to give the bigger stage it starts to collapse and the banana happens. Soundstages should go as much front to back as side to side. good job!

I'm so use to the sound of the FUNAI any kind of chatter doesn't even register anymore. As far as I'm concerned, bravo to plastic. That is, plastic in the right portions. Sounds like you came up with a good trick to make things more stable.

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:10 am

Hi Michael

A question:

I listened to a JBL studio monitor with a ported 12 inch woofer. It was a three-way speaker with about 90dB/1m efficiency.

On familiar CDs of classical music I found the presentation intense and dynamic though I suspect the projected mids and highs may get fatiguing compared to the Magneplanars after the initial novelty wears off.

But what was outstanding was the reproduction of cello within a string quartet context.

My system reproduces the cello in way that it sounds slightly loose. The JBLs give a projection that is closer to reality -- a tight sounding draw of the bow and a "growl and honk" that is typical of the cello that lets it cut thru the other instruments in real life.

On my system there is more emphasis on the lower harmonics so it is closer to the very high hand positions of a double bass.

Is it impossible to get my system to do the cello right? It is not a low frequency problem in the Janis W-1 subwoofer range -- that "bow draw and honk" is above 100hz. If I asked my audiophile friends they will tell me to x4 or x5 my amplifier wattage to achieve this.

What is the Tune's perspective?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:21 am

Hi Sonic

The JBL is a different animal than the Maggies for sure. It was designed to bring out and handle a lot of dynamics in the control room and was usually mounted on the front walls. In that setup where they are placed on or in the wall and slightly higher up they do a very good job and mate well with a lot of studio gear. Keep in mind they were designed as a zero compression environment speaker so this means playing both the live sound and the control room mix. How they work in a home setup may be a different ball game. Their one of the monitors that almost is a crossover from pro to home. You'll see them in a lot of musicians homes on the floor somewhere against the wall with stacks of sheet music siting on them. I speak from experience on that one.  Cool 

I really like the sound of JBL woofers and because I have used them so much accept their coloration. If I had them though in a home setting I would probably have them modified with a different tweeter for long term listening. Knowing what I know now it would be hard for me to listen outside of the tuning family for very long without being bored so who knows what I would think of them now. Getting the Maggies to sound like the JBL's with that sub and the bookcases, I wouldn't bet on it. Maggies aren't really designed to do that and you have already tried the stands. Not saying they couldn't but it would take some doing. However will the JBL's do what the Maggies do? Not with that tweeter I don't think, but you have a big room.

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