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 Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics

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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:30 am

Greetings Michael

Sonic’s listening to the M Ravel Orchestral Works box set (premier recording of Maestro Maurice’s complete orchestral works by Pierre Boulez and the New York Phil. Orch).  Beautiful and a good recording from CBS Masterworks.  Enjoying every track…till the famed Bolero.  It’s a piece I been slightly allergic to for years.  Basically the same short tune played over and over with different instrumental colours and orchestral volumes for about 15 minutes….

Thanks for the view on the JBL 4411s – Sonic gets the point.  The JBLs might very not likely work here given they are design for studio set up against the wall or in the wall and neither can Magneplanars be turned into sounding like JBLs anywhere easily, particularly in my set up as it is.  

But of course I will try to tune for that kind of cello reproduction without compromising other parts of the range.  

Sonic is checking with the Tune Instinct internally to hear what comes back.

Anyway, here are three pix of what Sonic recently did:







Appear to be moving in a good direction.

Michael, your thoughts?

Sonic


Last edited by Michael Green on Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:42 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : missing text in first post, used clearer words)
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:46 am

Hi Sonic

The transfer looks interesting. Are you able to keep things from getting tight?

How do you like the blocks under the rack cones?

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:59 am


Hi Michael

I can adjust the tightness by raising and lowering the MW 2.5" x 2.5" x 0.25" square which the rod is threaded through. The Harmonic Spring sits on top of the wood square centred over the resitone rod.

In this application, we must be careful so that it is not too tight and kills the transfer nor so loose that the thing falls over and the metal spring lands on the circuit boards and shorts the equipment and then KABOOM!

Right now the resitone tips are not sharpened to a point. They are just squared and press directly onto the circuit boards.

Michael -- to your ears should the resitone rods be sharpened to points? Should they rest on some MW thins?

Michael -- your question how things sounded after resting the rack cones on the Low Tone Redwood blocks. A greater sense of seeing into the going-ons of the musick. A slight heaviness I had before is now gone. The volume rose a bit and the sound was more "here" than "there". All in, good.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:24 am


Greetings Zonees

Sonic might have got a better understanding of the inter-relation of the Magneplanar 1.5QRs with the acoustics of my room.

I have always viewed a tweeter as being very important in defining the edges of transients. However, tweeter position in relation to our ears is important and certainly testing shows the polar pattern of a tweeter, that as frequency rises the dispersion angle narrows. Also phase oddities might come in further off axis we listen. For this reason Sonic toes in the MG1.5QRs slightly by a couple of inches from the straight ahead. But I have found that if I toed the speakers in more radically, the treble increases in brightness but images start to come from the panels in a way that tells Sonic the speakers are generating the sound. More toe-in also creates a banana soundstage. So I kept the toe-in as much and as little as Sonic could to get acceptable treble extension and no banana soundstage.

Then the other evening after my JBL listening session (reported on this thread on July 13), I made some observations that did not occur to Sonic till now:

a. the area behind my loudspeakers all the way to the front wall has been substantially tuned since I set the toe in of my speakers. That might been two years or more.

b. the MG1.5QRs even now sound fine but could do with more “bite”, coherency, less “there” more “here”, mid-soundstage presence.

c. ”every action has an equal and opposite reaction” applies here!!! Sonic sees that when I bring the tweeters more on axis to the listening chair, the more the rear wave of the tweeters and of the whole speaker is going to the side walls with less sound wave engaging the middle of the room and its pressure zones. Could this be what is causing the sense of the speakers as producers of the sound with increasing the toe in and the banana soundstage?

d. then might it be that Sonic should focus more wave to the middle of the soundstage zone?

That logically meant Sonic should act counter-intuitively -- remove the toe-in of the MG1.5QRs completely.

So this Sonic did. No toe-in with the MG1.5QRs measured with care so they were the same overall distance from the front wall and side walls as before.

Hey, this works!

More treble and transient impact. Also Sonic does not observe any change of tonality across the width of the soundstaqe. An improved and relaxed focus in the centre of the soundstage and wall to wall with images nicely located and good presence. On a Deodato (No. 2) recording, there are hints of the sound and image tails extending forwards of the speakers without drawing attention to the MG1.5QR panels. Yet no banana stage, less sound emanating from the speakers than before on recordings that particularly bring this effect out.

The upper bass is pretty good. I played the same CD of Haydn’s string quartets (Quartets op.74 played by the Endellion String Quartet on Virgin Classics) that brought about Sonic’s earlier comments about the cello of the JBL 4411.

Did Sonic end up with a JBL-like sound? Certainly not. But Sonic got a cello that was tight enough, with enough bow tension and “honk” but slightly lower in level compared to the Violin 1, Violin 2 and the Viola when the CD was played on the JBL. Not bad at all.

“There’s something happenin’ here. What it is ain’t exactly clear….” - Stephen Stills

And that’s what Sonic will have next on my turntable…..

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:39 pm

Hi Sonic

sonic said

Michael -- to your ears should the resitone rods be sharpened to points? Should they rest on some MW thins?

mg

If you like this setting stick with it until you hear anything that might bug you. Usually there is a rule of thumb. Bigger transfer point more body, smaller more focus. (usually). Finding the balance between those two is the goal. I find myself leaning to a fatter transfer most of the time.

MW thins are always something to try, but again if it's feeling right stay where you are at.

sonic

So this Sonic did. No toe-in with the MG1.5QRs measured with care so they were the same overall distance from the front wall and side walls as before.

Hey, this works!

mg

What do I tell the industry? Throw away the rule books Smile  . Great sound is made by making the room the speaker and not fighting the room. Always think pressure zones and not audiophile theory.

 Very Happy 


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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:35 pm

Sonic

Tell us more about the new sound  study 




 Cool 

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:09 am

Hi Michael

Sonic is still taking in the "new sound" and will describe it progressively over the next weeks as it settles.  It is early in the new movement of the Tune and the positioning of the FS-PCZs, FS-DRTs, FS-DTs will need to be checked if not adjusted since everything in the room affects everything else.

But to partly answer your questions here some observations:

a.   The room is very even acoustically -- the BOO! is lively, slight shift down in pitch, no overhang and even over most of the room

b.   The treble is more extended and has a sheen and sparkle.  Transients have more snap.  Sonic is particularly happy with this

c.   Most recordings sound louder, a couple A LOT louder, a small number slightly softer

d.   The soundstage is pretty much in a line, with classical music, some CDs where I earlier thought the image placements odd, now starts to make sense

I can hear more details into how a recording was made.  

Like what I am listening to now:



On "Borrowed Tune", the piano is huge and fills the front 2/3s if not all the room.  I can hear specific notes across the front of the stage and the balance between the treble and bass keys.  Neil's voice and harmonica is positioned about six feet in front of me.  The piano is probably recorded with an Omni mike, voice and harmonica with mike(s) with audibly different frequency response characteristics or perhaps EQ.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:14 pm

Hi Sonic

I like hearing this direction of your system. It sounds like your using the pressure of the room.








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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:39 am

Hi Michael and Zonees

With settling the sound is gaining a little size and weight day by day.

What is intriguing is that this great sound lay just a 2 -- 3 inches away. Just re-angling of the speaker toe-in per side did it. The distance of the speakers measured from their centre point to the front wall is exactly the same as before, the distance of the speakers' outer edges from the side walls are the same as before too. So this sound was just this far away (or just this close)!

In some ways Sonic wishes I had followed Michael's lead years ago and ran zero toe-in. But my consolation is that if this was done when the room was in a different and lesser state of Tune, the zero toe-in setting may have not worked.

I guess everything happens in its time.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:34 am

Hi Sonic

I think the audiophile mindset takes a while to get out of the brain. The more we make our own rules in listening letting nature guide us the more our systems are able to play with the other pieces and the room.

You can imagine how many people have walked into my rooms and say "this can't work" until they listen.

I'm very happy you made this step.

 Smile 

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:24 am


Hi Michael

Even in the audiophile world, there is a school of thought that espouses No Toe-In. This from Harry Pearson and Patrick H Donleycott. Sonic wanted to get to the provenance of the high end and went hunting for the early copies of the Abso!ute Sound.

I remember in an early issue that Donleycott wrote that "facing the speakers straight ahead should result not only in increased spatial depth, but in a sense of enhanced resolution of musical detail as well" Numero 25 March 1982. Then in Issue 51, Harry Pearson sets out his views on why toe-in distorts the soundstage -- as well as why outside loudspeaker outer edge imaging is possible.

Now this is admittedly not the Tune but we need to accept that "out there" we will encounter listeners who would arrive at findings that reflect ours in the Tune.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:25 am

Greetings Michael and Zonees

It has been a very good week for the Tune in my system since Sonic ran the Magneplanar MG1.5QRs without any toe-in. Long periods of playing CDs to settle the system and my earlier report that my stereo images are lining up across the soundstage Left to Right, image sizes increasing, more girth and cellos sounding more right is sustained and not fevered imagination.

Sonic did say a number of things will need revisiting such as the placement of the FS-DTs, the FS-PZCs, the FS-DRTs and angling of the Sound Shutters. Not to mention the X-30 control settings for the Janis W-1 subwoofer – like phase, turnover frequency and level – will need to be revisited too. Also too the distance from the sidewalls but where the MG1.5QRs are now is close to ideal. Maybe half inch in some direction.

Sonic has known that the virtue of patience needs to exercised or the results can become jumbled and I get confused.
So all I did in terms of revisiting is this – the FS-DT pair flanking the Clampracks holding the equipment were moved to the rear corners of the room and the other pair of FS-DTs placed against the Bookcase Wall just to the left and right of the listening chair.



A big soundstage and a little more immersion in the soundfield was what Sonic found.

But here’s a puzzle – the FS-DTs next to the ClampRacks were the newer design from Michael with the slimmer woodblocks for feet, while my other pair of FS-DTs are the earlier version with the thicker almost cube shaped woodblocks for feet.





In testing placement of the FS-DTs pairs between the rear corners and the BookCase Wall, I found I preferred the thicker woodblock FS-DTs next to my listening chair.  The sound was fuller and more naturally projected with the earlier version FS-DTs there.  When I tried the thinner blocked FS-DTs, the sound was not as full.  

Sonic checked – the nuts holding the board and the woodblock feet were equally tight (loose actually) for all four FS-DTs.  Yet there appears to be difference in sound between the thick and slim blocked versions….now this is puzzling because I expected that all the FS-DTs sound the same.  But the two versions sound different to Sonic’s ears in this room.

For sure, many of us Tunees were annoyed no end by the FS-DTs especially how the RoomTune Art boards kept slipping down or coming loose if lifted. And Sonic had a good share of this aggravation.  So not really sorry to see the FS-DTs go but I am getting a feeling that as far as sound, Michael may have got a better sound out of the earlier FS-DTs with the thicker almost cube shaped woodblock feet.

Also yesterday what Michael posted got Sonic worried.  He wrote that tan PCBs sound better than green ones. Why should the colour of a PCB affect the sound (as long as everything else like the material is similar)? If the preference is for tan boards, how do black boards compare?

Michael, can you comment and give your views on Sonic’s observation of the sound of different FS-DT versions and the effect of PCB colour on the sound.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:05 pm

Hi Sonic

"For sure, many of us Tunees were annoyed no end by the FS-DTs especially how the RoomTune Art boards kept slipping down or coming loose if lifted. And Sonic had a good share of this aggravation. So not really sorry to see the FS-DTs go but I am getting a feeling that as far as sound, Michael may have got a better sound out of the earlier FS-DTs with the thicker almost cube shaped woodblock feet."

mg

This is interesting, because I have been through this before and it's something that has haunted me a few times. The bases that are with the thicker feet are ones I did personally.

sonic

"Also yesterday what Michael posted got Sonic worried. He wrote that tan PCBs sound better than green ones. Why should the colour of a PCB affect the sound (as long as everything else like the material is similar)? If the preference is for tan boards, how do black boards compare?"

mg

This is a case by case thing. When I listen I have learned to hear the materials as they are being played. I know I'm weird  Laughing Different materials and what are used in them change the sound. On that particular unit "the Mag/FUNAI" the tan board has a lower tone than the green. The thing that I like about the new player is off set by the thing I like about the old. The bigger tan board was a part of what gives it it's great tone, so now I have to work my way around this and come up with the tuning formula for the newer unit, and I will.

circuit boards

There are many different types of combos used in circuit boards and they all sound different from each other. Color, yes makes a difference but not nearly as much as the type of board and tone of it.

here's a major deal

One of the reasons I like the sound of the lesser cost equipment is they use boards that tonally blow away the more expensive boards. Almost all high end audio designers lie through their teeth when they talk about the boards they use along with their chassis. The cases they make for using the materials they do are not something they have given serious listening tests to but are basing their designs on isolation being the key instead of using the materials as part of the sound. In fact there many times is a different type of board used in testing than is used in production, cause the production line is a totally different world than the R&D world.

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:37 am


Hi Michael

So Sonic may have not being imagining things when I found that the earlier FS-DTs (that you say you did personally) sounded slightly better  Very Happy 

Can you give me a quick answer to this question so I can try it this weekend:

Q: If you look at my room layout now -- the layout of the 3 FS-PZCs and 2 FS-DRTs -- what can I do to strengthen the Pressure Zone in the middle front of the room? [the two FS-DRTs are 90 degrees to the wall and have the reflective sides facing each other]

Your views quickly -- I think I may have found something significant, and to be sure I need to energise/strengthen the middle front PZ.

Sonic.
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:25 am

Hi Sonic

First thing I would want to hear is the racks pulled toward me a little and the front trio configuration pulled toward me a little too. And I would play the FS'es off of each other with some different angles.

Then when and if I heard any soundstage holes I would go to where they were, both at the side walls and front and lean some wood against those walls to hear what they are doing.

For me, I would want to know what each zone is sounding like and how the harder walls are influencing the zones.

Everytime I look at your room, I think if it were mine the first thing I would do is make the zone where my head is super easy to play the music.

When I'm doing a room for me if I can get that zone where my head is to really play that music then I can make the system come to me till it locks in with all the zones balancing each other.

Now that your using the speakers to build pressure find out if where your sitting is the hotest spot in the room. The great thing about facing the speakers straight is that you can now hear the room build pressure.

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:59 am


Hi Michael

Thanks.

You said, "First thing I would want to hear is the racks pulled toward me a little and the front trio configuration pulled toward me a little too. And I would play the FS'es off of each other with some different angles."

Sonic has started the process of moving the racks, amp platforms, centre FS-PZC and two FS-DRTs forward by 6 inches. Not difficult, if done slowly and carefully the racks should hold their centering.

My question. Please elaborate on "And I would play the FS'ed off each other with some diffferent angles" I take this that you are telling me to move the FS-DRTs on either side of the FS-PZC into a V-formation.

Given that my FS-DRTs are having their reflective sides facing each other, do I leave them like that or turn them around?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:24 am


Hi Zonees

While waiting Michael's answer on how to move the FS-DRTs, Sonic has been listening after the racks and FS-trio have been moved forward about 6 inches.

Its been a few hours of music play and settling. Impression is this is impressive!

Notes of instruments including plucked ones like the harpsichord and the santoor and are round, have diameter and not "sharp". There is a lot...a lot of settling to go. And I need to check that all the rack shelves are not touching the rods and everything is upright and Sonic will do that in a day or two and a little more settling.

Let's see what Michael says about adjusting the FS-DRTs and I will give that a try too.

All this is pointing nicely to an observation I made after listening to a conventional audiophile system and making a comparison to Sonic's system. I'll describe it in shortly once I get Michael's next tips and am more sure what I heard.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:03 am

Hi Sonic

I'm not quite sure what your asking, but here's what I see.



Blue are the zones that need to be shaped size wise, green are the areas that need a flavor givin to them, and red the above build up.

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:37 am

Hi Michael

I was asking if Sonic should go from the FS-PZC/FS-DRTs trio in this config:

l _ l

to either

\ _ /

or even

- _ -

But your diagram is useful  Very Happy 

How do I strengthen the Pressure Zone in the middle of the room (under the second red ellipse)?

Sonic is reasonably happy with the surround effect I am getting from a seating place near the BookCase Wall.

Let me know what your views are on strengthening the centre/middle Pressure Zone.

With the No Toe-In placement, I am getting enjoyable musick. But I am beginning to hear where the Pressures Zones are strong and weak.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:39 pm

Hi Sonic

"Sonic is reasonably happy with the surround effect I am getting from a seating place near the BookCase Wall."

As you've seen me say many times the above statement is key!

First of all if you feel you are close don't let me screw you up. I'm only doing this based on if it were me and I just made the change to no toe in. What I would do is start with my floorstanders and begin moving them to learn each zone.



You might already be way past this but when I turn the room over to the pressure zones instead of facing the speakers at me or toed I learn the room over again. But as I said if your close don't let me mess things up.

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:12 pm

Hi Michael

The point is that I've learnt from my No Toe-in move that being close is not good enough -- I was three inches of angling from the sound that I am now getting, a big difference. So that is why I want to get the Pressure Zones right.  There is still more to be done.

Sonic had the opportunity to make comparisons with another high quality audiophile systems in addition to listening to my own set up.

I was a guest in another listening room whose owner had installed a well known planar speaker with good digital front end and amplification.  The room (not a dedicated room but used also as a home office) was treated for echoes and first reflection points as in conventional thought.

The sound playing jazz was pretty good and not much banana soundstage curvature. But as Sonic and host listened and I walked around a bit to help with some movement of gear, Sonic remembered something that Michael talked about – that in his systems even standing directly in front of his speakers, you did not hear the speaker as a source of sound but the music filled the room when the system/room is properly tuned.  Can this be true?

So as a test, with this system Sonic walked across the frontage about three feet from the speakers’ plane from wall to wall, with eyes closed.  The room was about 12 feet wide and 20 feet long. Speakers 6+ feet from the front wall and about 3 feet from the side walls. The speakers were mildly toed-in.

Strange results. At the wall, the sound (using a mono test CD) was coming from the far front corner, then as I advanced to being in front of the speaker, I could hear I was in front of a speaker.  

As I passed the first speaker the sound between the speakers became less intense, changed tone and fell away in distance to what sounded like five feet or more behind the speaker plane.

As I approached the other speaker, the sound started to come forward, get focused again then when I was in front of the speaker panel, it was obvious where I was -- next to a speaker.  Then the sound fell away again.

So the image placement in this test is like a W – where the two lower points are the speaker locations.

To be fair to this audiophile’s system, you did not hear this when in the listening seat.  We listened to music sitting far field about 10 or more feet away on a sofa and it all sounds rather nicely put together and enjoyable. Carpets in between us and the speaker plane -- office table gear to the back and side.

Sonic then tried this same test on my system in its current state. I have to say I expected better. I could still detect the speakers but to a much lesser degree and happily there was almost no fall back in image location when walking between the speakers though the tonality changed somewhat during traverse.
 
Part of the reason is likely a well-known comb filtering effect as we traverse between the speakers and hear two sources, the frequencies beat which is why solo voices on one speaker sounds so much more solid and real and phantom images between speakers are “phantoms” literally.

Of course one may argue this is irrelevant since we listen from one spot and do not move about and certainly not walk back and forth two feet from the plane of the speakers eyes closed during playing music.

However I am told that this comb filtered tonality upset some audiophiles in Merrie England who would not listen to their BBC newscasts on a pair of speakers but on one of the pair!

Michael, how does your system sound in this “traverse test”?  Is it true the sound is seamless across the speaker plane with your set up that a listener cannot tell he is in front of speakers.  I guess there is no fall back in image between the speakers and is there any change of tone, I wonder?

Among the works Sonic been listening to is Joseph Haydn's The Creation:



Mono, 1954 recording probably before original instrument/early music performance started. In Sonic’s system a cursory listening won’t tell you it is mono.  A wide, tall and deep soundstage.  It is only in the lack of definite L and R images and the nature of the record noise that signals that it is a mono LP. A great find of this twin LP box set on one of Sonic’s digging sessions.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:22 am

Hi Sonic

Just did the test for you. I've got my center pressure zone so big that you can hear it as soon as you enter the room. The first 2 or 3 inches it is smooth but as soon as you barely get your head in the room it is all soundstage. At first I thought more of the sound was coming from the speaker but when I shut my eyes I would have looked around the room forever before I found them. My stage is even side to side and you can walk through it. Kinda like being able to walk up to the image.

There is a difference when I sit down though. I've got it tune so when I sit down it's even more full. Like you know how people have it so when they stand up it gets more full, mine is the opposite. My room sounds full but when you sit down it's like whoa, everything just became a headphone, a huge headphone.

I do want to say though that when I first hooked up the new player it did a little "I'm here speaker" thing, but that was more of a tonal issue, and it did jump to the speaker on old recordings that were direct pan mixed instead of behind them like usual. Now it's about a third as good at disappearing over the old one but ever day disappearing a little more. I would imagine it will take about another month before my caps breakin. But I was surprised to do the test a few minutes ago. I thought there was going to be a lot more in the speakers, but nope. Right now with Paul Simon the speakers are gone gone, but I'll try something else later and see if anything is jumping into them.

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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:43 am

Hi Zonees

Sonic will be next trying what Michael indicated in his revised drawing (posted July 28) where he marked out in Purple how I might place the FS-DRTs and FS-PZCs. Having the FS-PZCs ahead of the front corners seems something I want to try soon, as soon I get my racks to settle. During the 6 inch move forward, the CD/preamp rack was moved and retained its balance perfectly  Very Happy 

Not so the Rega P5 rack, it started to lean and Sonic had to go back to basics and get it vertical and with no rods touching shelves. It used to be a horrendous task but after some practice Sonic can get a leaning rack sorted in under 30 minutes. But I have learnt to leave them overnight at least with the hex nuts in contact so settling can take place then fully loosen them and check again.

Sonic likes what Michael suggested ahead of the speakers....it is getting close to something I discovered of my room. Sonic is not being deliberately mysterious. Just not sure what I am hearing, not being able to describe it in words and I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill that Michael can help me correct with say a 20 degree turn of a panel somewhere.

The TT rack is settling so far and this evening the Rega sang with the second part of J Haydn's The Creation. Conventional audiophiles will say "this is MONO?"

Looks Sonic has an active tuning week is ahead. And I just PM'ed Michael about how to increase the size and intensity of the middle Pressure Zone.

Also been discussing my order with Harold. Faced with the complexity of the sound of brass versus zinc, Sonic had a fuse in my head blow....too much. I cannot decide. My thoughts are blank. Need a rest.

Sonic
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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:42 am

Hi Zonees

Maybe it is that Sonic does not need to increase the intensity of the Central Pressure Zone after all.  After a trial of placements today following Michael's diagram of July 28, things may be coming into place without need to work on the ceiling in the room centre.  More in a couple of days when Sonic is more sure of what the room is telling me.

Hi Michael

In your July 28 diagram, if the Green markers in the diagram indicate where tone wood can add Tone, how should this be implemented?  Aeroplanes or just leaning wood boards against the wall like Hiend001 did.

What device should the panels ahead of the speakers be (the ones in line with the Orange bar which I assume is the listening seat) -- FS-PZCs, FS-DRTs, FS-DTs or aeroplanes?

I notice that no panel products are placed in the corners themselves.  Michael used to implement this earlier, is there a new solution that you arrived at over time that panels specifically in the corners were not found to be as useful if other things were dealt with?    

Given the height of my speakers and room, how tall should the wood adding Tone to the room be, and the panels?

Right now the panels are 4+ ft tall, the FS-DTs about 3 feet and a bit.  Is this sufficient given the 10 1/2 foot tall room and speakers more than 5 1/2 feet tall. However I read that Michael said that the FS-DTs may be not that tall but the height is not an issue with their effectiveness.

Sonic


Last edited by Sonic.beaver on Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:49 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Additional question for M Green added, one superfluous line deleted)
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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:22 am

Greetings Zonees

It is great when Michael starts steering Sonic’s tuning move.  Based on his chart of July 28, this is where Sonic went – see the FS-PZCs moved down the side walls?





This works.  I started the FS-PZCs at about 20 inches out, with good effect immediately.  Then an additional 5 inches forward and I found the whole sound field expanded R to L and front to rear, it affected the centre Pressure Zone too.

However the trio of FS-PZC and two FS-DRTs had to stay in the l _ l configuration. By going to  \ _ / flattened the middle zone.

One thing more and this one is a problematic one. The rack for the TT is unstable, Sonic found that after every action to get the rods vertical, the front one start to lean forward and the lean seems to follow in the direction of the rotation of the turntable platter. The other rack carrying the CD player and preamp is absolutely stable and holds its stability even though the upper hex nuts for every shelf does not touch the shelf surface.

I wonder of my wayward turntable rack is due to an effect posited by 47Lab’s chief Junji Kimura who said that the torque of a turntable transmits from the platter to the bearing, through the plinth, down through the feet to the surface below. So if you placed a turntable on a boat in a perfectly still lake, eventually the boat will start to turn as well.  He said this in relation to the design idea for his 4724 Koma Turntable which as two counter-rotating platters driven by a long looped belt.

Michael, what do you think?  Is my rack rotation due to this or just that for this rack, the greatest weight is the TT sitting on the top shelf.

Also could you answer my earlier questions:

a.   In your July 28 diagram, if the Green markers in the diagram indicate where tone wood can add Tone, how should this be implemented?  Use aeroplanes or just leaning wood boards against the wall like Hiend001 did.

b.   What device should the panels ahead of the speakers be (the ones in line with the Orange bar which I assume is the listening seat) -- FS-PZCs, FS-DRTs, FS-DTs or aeroplanes?

c.   I notice that no panel products are placed in the corners themselves. You used to advise FS-DRTs and FS-PZCs in the corners earlier, is there new thinking that you arrived at over time that panels specifically in the corners were not found to be as useful if other things were dealt with?    

d.   Given the height of my speakers and room, how tall should the wood adding Tone to the room be, and the panels?

e.   Right now the FS-PZCs/FS-DRT panels are 4+ ft tall, the FS-DTs about 3 feet and a bit.  Is this sufficient given the 10 1/2 foot tall room and my speakers being more than 5 1/2 feet tall. However I read that you  said that the FS-DTs may be not be tall but their height is not an issue with their effectiveness.

As I write this Sonic is listening to a recorder, harpsichord and viola da gamba trio on my system and the recorder is rendered big, yet the sizing of the three instruments are proportionate like in a real concert.  And the Dance Music from the High Baroque (Ulsamer-Collegium with Konrad Ragossnig [lute] on Archiv).  The sizing of the different instrumental combinations is obvious and the bass is BIG on some pieces. Wow!

What this tells Sonic that with the Tune, close-up advice from Michael is vital - plus some out of the box thinking.  Buying gear and plastering them around the room even following charts is not the way.  The difference between a good audio presentation and virtual reality is maybe a couple of inches and degrees of turn away!

Sonic
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