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 Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics

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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:49 am


Some stability appears to have been achieved to the rack carrying the Rega P5 -- is this a good solution?

But it appears after a couple of days of standing and record playing to be stable.

What Sonic did was level every shelf, making sure each rod is upright and the rods did not touch the shelf thru holes. Then I did the top nuts of the lowest shelf and the balancer shelf finger tight and just a very small bit more, and kept the shelf (top most) which the Rega P5 sits on completely loose, as Sonic normally sets the Clamprack nuts.

So no lean, the sound is not too compromised, pretty good but having known what a fully balanced and loose Clamprack sounds like, this is a Second Place. But once a rack goes out of true and leans, the sound goes far downhill. Sonic remembers that when the Clamprack mild steel rods were used with no cones, the squared off ends resting on the Low Tone Redwood were more stable, the point down of the cone is more on edge but sounds better.
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:07 am

Hi Sonic

a.   In your July 28 diagram, if the Green markers in the diagram indicate where tone wood can add Tone, how should this be implemented?  Use aeroplanes or just leaning wood boards against the wall like Hiend001 did.

mg



The green is where I saw the need for flavoring that would give you something different than the sound of your walls. But this was based on the way you had things setup. Right now I would stay focused on learning what those areas are doing as you move the tunes around.

I would lean wood against the walls to see what you hear, then a design could be decided on. Maybe even something as simple as the kraft paper.

sonic

b.   What device should the panels ahead of the speakers be (the ones in line with the Orange bar which I assume is the listening seat) -- FS-PZCs, FS-DRTs, FS-DTs or aeroplanes?

mg

The orange box is where I see some ceiling tuning maybe being needed.

It's a good rule of thumb to start with deluxes, then trade them out for PZC and see what you hear. Again I like what Hiend001 is doing with the paper to modify the tunes. I use as transparent fabric as I can but still sometimes the use of a little different sounding barrier facing and you can do a lot. Esspecially if the room is stuck on a group of frequencies that have a tendency to distort the harmonics, and that's what I'm hearing happening with your walls. As I've said before I sense you need more wood flavor in the room.

sonic

c.   I notice that no panel products are placed in the corners themselves. You used to advise FS-DRTs and FS-PZCs in the corners earlier, is there new thinking that you arrived at over time that panels specifically in the corners were not found to be as useful if other things were dealt with?  

mg

This is music and room dependant. Right now for example I'm using panels in my small room in the corners in the front. Keep in mind that sometimes I setup things for an over all sound and other times per recording. There is no such thing as "A" room setting. Recordings are all different and all over the place the way they react to acoustical space. Finding how your system works is first and second is learning how to make the adjustments you want in a more predictable way.

sonic

d.   Given the height of my speakers and room, how tall should the wood adding Tone to the room be, and the panels?

mg

This is a little harder to answer and is why you see me sometimes giving others very specific answers and you a little more general. If I was in your room for a day or maybe less I would have it pretty figured out but with it being the size it is and the material I am more careful than to say do this or that. Hard walls like you have can be very tricky, and because they are so big many things can happen to make many changes but I also feel that there are some waves that are stuck in standing positions and to unlock them takes materials that have more tone in the room. How high up in the room, I would really have to be there.

Keep in mind that when I do bigger rooms I try to talk them into using my panels like the picture below.



It's easier for me to know what these rooms sound like cause I make them.

sonic

e. Right now the FS-PZCs/FS-DRT panels are 4+ ft tall, the FS-DTs about 3 feet and a bit. Is this sufficient given the 10 1/2 foot tall room and my speakers being more than 5 1/2 feet tall. However I read that you said that the FS-DTs may be not be tall but their height is not an issue with their effectiveness.

mg

Things can always be made bigger  Smile  When you look at my studios for example you'll see regular size stuff and larger.

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Last edited by Michael Green on Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:51 am; edited 3 times in total
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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:34 am


Hi Michael

Here are some of my findings over the weekend of listening:

a. The FS-PZCs placement along the side walls have a tension. Further out gives richer harmonics but reduction of soundstage width, closer to the corners, more width but less harmonic colour. But both are an improvement of the FS-PZCs across the corners. Sonic will likely move the FS-PZCs back an inch or two and see what balance I get.

b. There is something odd in the zones directly to the Left and Right of my listening seat. Like two dead zones (that's where the doors are). Placing FS-DTs there don't help. This is getting in the way of creating the 360 degree (rather 4 pi) envelopment.

What do you suggest?

For Zonees reading this -- Sonic is not saying that diagrams for RoomTune device placements are not of any use. They are guides because no two rooms are exactly the same.

The diagrams from Michael will get you into the ballpark and give you very good sound that will make you the envy of your audiophile friends. But to get really Tuned, Mr Green needs to be involved as Sonic is now requiring stage-by-stage advice.

Michael, your comments on my TT rack and the solution I arrived at. And if you can help me get the dead zones to the Left and Right of me fixed, the 360 degree surround ideal of the Tune would be achieved in Sonic's room.

Sonic is now listening to J S Bach's Two Concerti for 3 Harpsichords and String Orchestra and Concerto for 4 Harpsichords and String Orchestra -- Mainz Chamber Orchestra conducted by Gunter Kehr (Turnabout).

This is a Mono recording but sitting back watching the disc spin and hearing the sound, many would not think it Mono.

Yes, there is no pronounced Left and Right images but the soundfield is wall-to-wall.

Sonic
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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:42 am


Michael -- just saw your post -- looks like we are writing at the same time -- good morning!

MG:
I would lean wood against the walls to see what you hear, then a design could be decided on. Maybe even something as simple as the kraft paper.

Sonic:
How do I do this -- use plywood boards or pine from Ikea leaning...how big to start? How to apply Kraft -- stuck to the walls, use cardboard pieces with kraft/aluminum foil over? Can give me a structure and size to start off?

But your views also on the rack for the Rega TT and the "dead zones" to the Left and Right of my listening seat will be valuable.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:56 am

Hi Sonic

First on the left and right. Take a floorstanding tune, any of them, and lean them against the doors and tell me what you hear.

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:53 am

Hi Michael

Test done as you suggested with rather unexpected results. A good experiment!

When this test was carried out, the system was fully warmed up and a “settling CD” played for more than an hour.  Then listening began as Sonic took the measure of the system.  This “settling CD” is some baroque recorder, violin, harpsichord and viola da gamba sonatas.

Good sound as I am familiar with, short of a sense of surround. The music was then paused somewhere through the disc and Sonic detached two DTs from the rear corners and leaned them on the doors.

Two pictures.





Music play resumed.

First effect was I got more sound fanning out on the sides, the bass viol filled the room and it did not stop at the front of the speakers. The violin and harpsichord had more sense of “reaching forward” and there was more girth.

But as track after track played, I started to feel a “character” was being imposed by the room on the music. The atmosphere in the room is somehow thickened. A definite character imposed.

Changed CD to Bob Dylan’s Blood on Tracks – selected “If you see her, say hello”.

Bob’s voice is big and raspy.  I can count the guitars and “see” the notes being picked but again…the transient edges are softened. And yes, Sonic can now describe the effect – its getting to be a kind of “swimmy ambience”.  I can sense ambience round me but it is like rear speakers in a Hafler set up turned up too much. Increasing the volume by a click or two results in irritation and fatigue.

Then Sonic hit the Pause button.  As I suspected -- overhang. The music does not cut off smartly.   Played music again then hit Pause, yes overhang. The thickness and “imposed character” Sonic sensed is from the overhang and this overhang is mostly in a range of bass frequencies.

Next Sonic remounted the DTs in the rear corners.  Dylan again. Open sound, sharper transients. Hit Pause several times, this time hardly any overhang and none in those bass frequencies that created that “character” I heard earlier. Raising the volume with this set up is pleasant.  

Conclusion: Surround is possible in my room but two DTs leaning on the doors is not the solution.

Michael – what does this tell you, what shall Sonic do from here (hear)?

Sonic


Last edited by Michael Green on Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:17 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : added missing word)
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:00 am

Greeting Zonees

While Sonic waits for Michael’s views on what I discovered with the DTs leaning on the doors, here are some thoughts.

This whole thing has mildly worried Sonic. The overhang and exaggerated ambience might be a case of me setting up a tune approach that was constructed round the room with two lossy portals (the two doors). If these were compensated for, then the system comes apart.

An analogy: A car designer living in Washboard Land where all roads are rutted like the surface of a washboard, so he designs wheels and tires that are Star-Shaped, these fitted the ruts perfectly and gave a nice ride, no bumps.

One day the inhabitants of Normally Flat Land extend their roads and connect to Washboard Land. Once Washboard Land cars drive on Normally Flat Land roads, the ride is intolerable running on the points of the Star-Shaped wheels not mention that no traction either.

Back to reality: Sonic wondered if I had made something of a Star-Shaped wheelie thing. But right now I’m listening to an Eric Burdon LP where he sings the blues – and the sound is realistic and excellent. Big soundstage across the frontal arc of my room. Ambience is there but the extreme zones to my Left and Right are kind of empty.
The Burdon record was followed by J P Rameau’s orchestral suites for the Opera “Dardanus” – Collegium Aureum dir: Reinhard Peters (Harmonia Mundi LP -- 1964). Very good musick reproduced well.

I got a couple of more Tune ideas to be done – to be tried next. But it appears if I want to get the all-round ambience that I know exists and is possible by having things leaning on the doors then Sonic should stop the leakage of sound.

Then Sonic may need to redistribute the tuning devices around the room and may even have to increase the amount of burn in the room. Perhaps increase the reflection/diffusion to my Left and Right, then use some form of selective burn or frequency control to deal with the bass overhang and then extending the frequency range of the ambience.

Hey Michael – what’s your thoughts?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:31 am

Hi Sonic

Sorry for the late response. The whole boo and or over hang is not something that is a bother to me as much as it might be to some. Here's why, the room should and is an amplifier and as with all amplifiers there is a slight delay that is always there (even with electronics). Because I've spent a lot of my time in the live room in studios this "overhang" has been a part of my listening experience all my life, as well as the dull foam or fabric sound that comes from studio materials used in recordings.

I wish all listeners would have had the experiences I did, cause if so the understanding of things like dulling or overhang would make more sense to them and maybe not be as much of a bother. The question is this. What if you put on a recording that naturally has overhang and you shut the system down so it is not there, then put on the next recording that has been foamed and now you don't have enough overhang  Question  Idea  Always good to listen to a recording but also be able to look up the recording conditions to see what the live room was like. Keep in mind that time distortion works both ways, overhang and underhang. I have walked into many many listening rooms that were distorting from underhang.

Sometimes I will listen to my room in a completely sterile mode where, as you were saying, when I hit that remote it stops on a dime. Other times I will listen with flavor added to the sound (a little overhang). Remember that overhang if in tune is not distortion but amplification. At the same time I have heard rooms with what I would call too much of this and in this case a little more control should be done. My goodies are designed to give the control but not go over board and shift the room to dull. Dull is not cool in my book, cause the harmonics really suffer with dull.

The key here is learning the live room sounds, and knowing how to reproduce them, and learning when a recordings are shifting in their balance.

One other thing I have noticed is, and I know this is a pain for some listeners, letting things settle (recording on repeat) sometimes straightens out the rooms zones. Once that room adjust itself to a recording things that sounded loose tighten dramatically. This is a hard thing to detect when you first put on a recording but once you get good at hearing this you learn where the recording is going to go and have the choice, deal with it now or wait for it to deal with itself naturally.

vinyl vs CD

Another thing that is important to think about when comparing vinyl and digital. When you put a vinyl up against the CD player (if both are doing their job) the TT a lot of times will take the CD, but when you let the CD settle with one or two passes the CD (same recording) many times will then take the vinyl.

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:11 pm

Hi Michael and Zonees

Thanks for replying, Michael.

Since the experiment, following the example from Hiend001 the pathfinder, Sonic did this:



The aluminum foil gave a bit more edge to transients and a little more “metal” where there was metal. Sonic likes this, and if I were to characterize things we are moving in the direction of the JBL’s immediacy and snap.

Also over this week, Sonic has been facing thinking turbulence over the experiment (see August 4) where I leaned a DecoTune panel on the side doors.  

Zonees will know what sound I got from Sonic’s description, but the images fanning out and forward past my listening seat was something I cannot get out of my mind.  Sonic misses this after I went back to my earlier set up.  Yes, "it stops on a dime" as Michael says and the sound has good neutrality but now it has gotten into  Sonic’s head what more the system is capable of.
 
Next I aim to try to vary things so I can get to use the DTs or what Michael recommends to be put on those doors.  There is really some leakaqe there.  

Sonic suspects the next step might involve the withdrawal of the Janis W-1 subsystem from the room for a simpler system and to tune for maximal bass -- I have learnt that bass response and extension is a tune issue beyond just room geometry --  even though I have no illusion that the deepest lows like <35hz will be beyond the Magneplanar MG1.5QRs’ capability.  

Comments Michael?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:25 am

Hi Sonic

subs

This is why I made the SW10. In my thinking after using many subwoofers, I didn't want to build a sub, but instead make a logical step from a 2 way speaker to a 3 way.

room

Once you hear that you have a choice to go slightly thicker in the body and size of the stage, once that sound is in your head, it's hard (for me anyway) to turn away from. Some music begs for body to be complete.

Here's something that is tough to get through the brain if your thinking audiophile-ish. Audiophiles in the brain stop at the speaker. They think the amplification stops there, but when one thinks that way they leave out the biggest amplifier in the chain. They think the room will only give some type of distortion, but the room is only a blown up picture of the signal. Everywhere along the audio pathway you and I can make the signal thin or full. We do it all the time with our components and cables. The room is no different, it "is" part of the chain and we are not distorting by using the signal or shaping the signal in it's acoustical/mechanical form. Like I said it's the same signal going through that resistor, And you can change that sound at the resistor or at the room, same signal, same response. The difference is your room is like a huge part that your sitting in the middle of, and the more you learn it and flavor it the closer you can get to your sound.

Lets say we took sonic and put him in a shrinking machine and put him in the middle of a cap. While you were in that cap you would be able to change materials around to change the sound of the signal as it is moving through. We blow you back up to real size again and your sitting in your room. The signal is exactly the same "a vibratory energy mass" full of the same ingredients. Both the electronic signal and the acoustical signal are charged matter, and if you broke down their makeup would be surprised at how similar they are. One major thing that they have in common is how they move and how they carry the signal.

So always think of your room as a part in the chain just like any other, the only difference is the smaller parts you are outside of and the room you are in. Same type of signal though and it's all being driven by the recorded movement. So if it is a little fat or a little thin it's still the signal, the signal interpreted by the interaction of the materials and conditions it is in., and every part is going through the same thing the room is.

 Cool 

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:01 am

Overnight Sonic did a trial run of a simpler system – I connected the Quicksilver preamp directly to the main amp, bypassing the X-30 and unplugged the crossover’s wall wart and the Rotel from mains. Put in my “settling disc” and let it run.

After some hours, Sonic came in for a listen….surprisingly good!

The bass was sounding pretty OK. Next onto the CD tray went some rock stuff that has exaggerated but deep-ish bass that I use as a guide for response in the 40 to 50 Hz and it was reasonably full, certainly not rolled off the way the system sounded the last time I ran without the Janis W-1 subwoofer where these notes were MIA.

This means the attempt at a simpler system without the Janis W-1 subsystem is a “Go”.

Then next I removed the amp, crossover and the Janis W-1 physically from the room, let the system run my “settling disc” on repeat and Sonic went on with life.

Somewhere through the switchover/settling period I had a quick listen. All I heard earlier is largely there, the bass response is a little wavy with a kind of hump in the upper bass which got activated on a track in that rock stuff album I mentioned, that it changes the sound of an electric bass playing in its top registers beyond the 12th fret. Comes over with a honk. Sonic not worried, this can be tuned out.

Oh yes, the cardboard tube on the Right to balance the Janis W-1 on the Left has been removed too. It might come back later.

Settling is going on in earnest this weekend.

You know, the room looks good now, visually free and uncrammed.

While I won’t say how it sounds this way (free and uncrammed) because there is yet a lot of settling ahead, Sonic got a theory that if you walk into a room and see a wall of gear and stuff all round you – multiple pairs of speakers, amps, tubes everywhere, tuner, TTs, several arms, CD player(s) maybe reel tape decks and cassette players, racks everywhere with tons of CD and records all over the place (like in those wonderful Japanese magazines), the music might sound as crammed as it looks.

Sometimes Sonic thinks our visual perception and hearing work together…just a thought, no further harm done (from Wm Shakespeare).

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:46 am

Hi Sonic

I have become so use to hearing rooms that are setup for sound waves to develope that when I walk in a room with all that other stuff in them I can feel it in the rooms pressure. I get crazy about this and when living in a place long enough will start to move things in all the other rooms besides my listening rooms, but what really happens is every room becomes a listening room in time.

Today on Hiend001's thread I was talking about some stuff I was doing around the house. Well while listening I was hearing something strange, so after a couple of passes through the song I walked out of the room and saw down the stairs I laid the thin box the blinds were in at the bottom of the steps. As soon as I moved them I went up stairs cause I could hear the song unlock again.

I think that when we let our senses guide us we become open on many different levels.

I get a kick out of engineers because they talk about how this stuff is nonsense and yet they are some of the most physc-influenced people in the hobby. They really can't hear something unless they see a chart that makes them feel safe enough to let their minds recieve that they actually heard something. Isn't that wild  Rolling Eyes . They're the ones that say we can't listen to things not documented yet they have the hardest time out of any of us when it comes to picking sounds out. While the rest of us are listening they are still wondering if they heard something or not. Someone who plays that game long enough will have no clue how to pick out different sounds. They get brain locked, I've seen it many times. It's like the music is something they can't relate to anymore. Everything becomes a proof it quest and they loose their ability to hear intonation. I've seen it happen in the studio and with audiophiles. They loose their ability to comprehend pitch, phase and stage movement. There's a lot of audiophiles that get this way. They'll start listening for things that are not really music related and things like harmonics to them and halos and really anything outside of a flat soundstage they can't relate to.

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:09 am


Ehh...this is a troubling idea that things beyond our immediate listening rooms affect the sound.

Michael -- the effect you found from removing the box for the blinds down the stairs. Was the door to your listening room closed or open?

Do the doors to our rooms isolate the room to some degree or is there no isolation at all?

This is a troubling idea -- the windows of our rooms open to the wide world...the other side of our listening room doors may open to all sorts of spaces or to the outdoors.

So are doors isolation devices or even if they are closed, the spaces beyond affect the sound?

Then if we live in an multi-storied building what about the apartments to above and below us?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:49 am

Hi Sonic

I have kept my door open so I can use the other space, but I don't always do this type of thing. Doors are usually great resonators, and using them as variable ports is cool, but it doesn't always work. They do some isolation depending on the door itself.

Remember last year when I stayed at the summer place? When I opened up the door to the outside and got it at the right angle my soundstage exploded in size. Huge side to side.

So are doors isolation devices or even if they are closed, the spaces beyond affect the sound?

Then if we live in an multi-storied building what about the apartments to above and below us?

 Laughing  all part of the fun  Exclamation 

But

Your room is so big you have plenty of energy to play with in there.

Also with your new setup have you angled the bookshelves at all and listened to this?

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:15 am


Nope Michael...how shall Sonic angle the bookcases, are you suggesting some sort of V of ^ shape facing the speakers?

Right now I am having my system settle in without the Janis W-1 subsystem. Had a much of a day with my "settling disc". Maybe Sonic is imagining things, but the sound is changing through every hour.

It might be that what I post next Friday will be quite a few changes from where the system is now.

Anyway the objective of a hifi system is not tweaking or the equipment chase but musick to soothe our souls. This late Saturday, on the Rega P5 is Handel's Ode for St Cecilia's Day (Choir of King's College Cambridge/Academy of St Martin-in-the-Fields conducted by Sir David Willcocks, Decca Serenata LP).

Sonic

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:59 am

just thinkin outloud



Oh, and I always hear the music change hour to hour.

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:34 am

Hi Zonees

Another day of settling has occurred. And Sonic made some moves of the FS-PZCs in the forward side walls and moved the DecoTunes leaning on the doors to the Left and Right of me.

It appears that there is more than sufficient bass without the subwoofer Janis W-1 and subsystem.  More so I can hear what the presence of the large subwoofer Janis W-1 box did to the soundstage.  The bass is extended about as far as you can expect Magneplanar MG1.5QRs to go and then some.

Determined this after playing Enya’s Watermark (CD)

Soundstage perceptually unrelated to the physical speakers, bass is surprisingly wide band and maybe slightly too warm sometimes (but that upper bass anomaly Sonic spotted earlier is very reduced or gone with settling).

Here’s what Sonic been listening to:

Handel

Count Basie

Stills – Young

And some Medieval Musick

Sonic having difficulty with the flash of my camera, hence the glare.

This week I will give a try to some of the Tunes implied by Michael's "thinking outloud" diagram.

However, Sonic is much convinced how the Tune is working to make a subwoofer unnecessary using a loudspeaker placement that audiophile claim can never work (half way the length of the room near the walls).  Adding wood for flavor as given in the earlier diagrams from Michael is something to think about in Sonic's mind.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:25 am

Sonic played a CD of Schubert's Trout Quintet (Emil Gilels pno/Amadeus Quartet/Rainer Zepperitz contrabass -- Deutsche Grammophon). I am afraid Schubert is not one of Sonic's favourite composers.  I do like his string quartet and piano pieces but orchestral works not so much.  

The Trout Quintet is nice and this is hard for audio systems to reproduce well. It has a Contrabass playing an octave below the cello.  I could not get it right, sometimes you hear the cello and not the lower bass or the bass is heavy and plodding and the cello is masked. A good test for bass smoothness, balance and extension plus clarity, lack of overhang.

With the subwoofer I could hear both and bass went real deep but there was something abnormal about it. Like the two instruments were playing the right notes but somehow not together in the same place and same time. The contra bass plodded. Fatiguing in a way.  

Now with the tuned room and Magneplanar MG1.5QRs without the Janis W-1 subwoofer,  the piece is coherent.  And the tuning has allowed both instruments to be reproduced, the contrabass not exactly smooth but it has the low notes, heft and it is distinct from and playing in time with the cello. Previously without the Janis W-1 the contra bass was weakened in comparison to the cello.

 cheers to RoomTune and Michael Green

With the extended bass, Sonic notes that the bass from the MG1.5QRs sounds different from the combined bass with the Janis W-1 subwoofer.

Now after these several days of settling, Sonic is getting a slight metallic zing from the aluminum foil on the EchoTunes on the ceiling.

It is one of those things that appears on every LP and disc played.  

Thought too how to angle the bookcases as Michael suggested.  Might be a risk -- Sonic is using Ikea Expedits for record shelves.  These things got no backing boards so records can fall out the other side.  I am using the sides of the BookCase Wall as the backing boards. I'll need to cut and apply backing boards.  But before this, a quick tryout is planned.

Michael, if I want to use wood to flavor the sound of the room (see the green arrows on your diagrams indicating where the "flavouring" should go), how would you apply the flavouring wood -- what will it look like, I could do with some on at least my front and rear walls, how large will the pieces be?


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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:20 am

Hi Michael and Zonees

After more days of settling, Sonic finds the aluminum foil on the EchoTunes on ceiling gives the right tonality, just enough incisiveness.  With the DecoTunes leaning on the doors is a good mix. And the bass is adequate, the settling did not change Sonic's view on the bass is sufficient without the subwoofer and it is more coherent.  So we stay with this combination  Very Happy 

Michael -- give me your views and drawings on how to use wood to flavor the sound at those points marked out by the green pointers.  Sonic is working with Harold on the details of my next order and I have to finalise details in the next few days so he can get on with the fabrication. So quick details from you so Sonic can consider these items because your diagram posted on July 28, 2014 is the blueprint for my room since it worked so well!

Sonic


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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:51 pm

Hi Sonic

I needed to do the test in my room again so I could think about the size. In your room.



I'm thinking 23" x 48" Brazilian Pine Tuning Boards would sound perfect.




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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:37 am

Hi Michael

Yes, Sonic is interested. I’ll PM you on the details for the Brazilian Pine tuning boards.

In the meantime, here are pix of Sonic’s simple(r) system without the Janis W-1 subwoofer, Rotel amp and X-30 crossover. Notice the simpler support for the main amp:





I returned the DTs to their bases and back to the rear corners (here’s the Left rear corner).  With the DTs leaning on the doors Sonic got a kind of surround envelopment but as settling progressed, some recordings like my Harmonia Mundi CD set of Haydn’s complete works fortepiano is too echoey and reverberant, far more than it will ever be acceptable in a live concert.  Also on pop music, there are some exaggerated piano notes that show there is ringing.  



Michael’s suggestion of something on the door to control leakage makes a difference but DTs is not the right thing. Thoughts Michael?  Oh yes, Kraft paper on the DTs sharpens the sound up too much.

But in this present configuration the sound is nice – big in stage, decent bass (surprisingly deep for MG1.5QRs), extended treble and a slightly incisive midrange. Pleasant to listen to for hours and hours.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:35 am


Hi Zonees

Sonic is adjusting my next order and it will be made up of mostly 23” x 48” x ¾” Brazilian Pine tuning boards. Been on email with Harold on the details of the order.

One thing Sonic wants to comment is the excellent customer interaction from Mr Cooper. He more than supports the customer through their changes but thinks for them.

With a customer relations front-end like this, if the production back-end delivers the quality and consistency – add in Michael’s stream of ideas, RoomTune can become much greater than it was at its last peak! Sonic is optimistic.

Till I get the serious amount of wood in my room, Sonic tried something that, while a compromise, is pretty good. I moved the two FS-PZCs back to a placement across the front corners, and then brought the DecoTunes from the rear corners back out and leaning on the doors to the Left and Right of the listening seat.

Let it settle, we will see how it progresses through the coming week.

Sonic is listening now to Woody Herman and The Herd's Jazz Hoot (Columbia). Nice musick and didn't know to now that Herman was a competent singer too.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:11 pm

Hi Sonic

" Oh yes, Kraft paper on the DTs sharpens the sound up too much."

Does the paper on the RoomTune Deluxe do the same thing or just the DecoTunes?

I'm interested to hear this flavoring.

Good move on the Tuning Boards  Very Happy , Shifting the balance in your room is going to be a big deal.

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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:46 am


Hi Michael and Zonees

Sonic has just finalised the details of my next order with Mr Cooper. Like I said...great responsiveness!

Sonic is glad that the pictures are again visible after the site maintenance. For a couple of days, I could not view the pix from my laptop (just got Xs) but could see them on my mobile device...

Now Michael's question: the Kraft paper does not give the same over-sharp sound when stuck to the reflective side of the FS-DRTs. Quite promising but settling must happen before Sonic can be sure, but for now it appears to be better detail and an improved sense of what's going on "within" the orchestra more so than presenting a wall sound.

So the sound signature for both application trends similarly but on the FS-DRTs it is works in synergy while with the DTs it seems to be at odds. A few more days and things will be clearer.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics   Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:58 am

After more settling and time to try describing the sound, the Kraft paper on the top 15 inches of the FS-DRTs (reflective side and in my application facing each other) reduced front-to-back depth while emphasizing inner detail. So Sonic got a wide, very lively but flat orchestral perspective.

Sonic likes my orchestras, and other musick, a lot fatter than this. Give me thick harmonics!

It also seems like Hiend001's discovery of aligning the grain of the Low Tone Redwood blocks is showing benefits in Sonic's system. I sort of knew it would -- if Hiend001 hears something, Sonic takes notice. And if Michael weighs in saying that it his own experience too, then it is really something.

So the questions Sonic raised on Hiend001's thread becomes more real -- because this is a real effect, it is not some audiophile nonsense to be ignored, some reasoning why it is so needs to be developed.

Sonic maintains there is no weird science in the Tune, just a practical reapplication of established laws of acoustics approached with a fresh mind (Michael's primarily), not the approach taken by audiophiles and an audio industry that is losing its future because it is not delivering to new generations.


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