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 tune trainee's System

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tune trainee



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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:14 pm



That is the same setup but more pictures to come.  I had planned on finding a place for more stuff than has been moved out of the room so far.  As time allows more of the stuff in the room will get moved out.
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:29 pm

Sorry if I repeat myself. How many pillows do you have up and where? Looks like there is nothing in the main corner mid-seams.


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tune trainee



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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:51 pm

I have the square units that you show in your last picture.  They are in the same locations you show.  I do not have the longer models in my room.  Is that a good next step for me?  I am loving what is happening with my system but as with most I am always looking for more and better sounding music.

 On a side note I was taking apart my speakers to remove sound killing foam and insulation.  The other was playing having been finished while working on second one.  At one point the sound moved around the room and I would have sworn the music was coming from the speaker I was working on that was unplugged.   Not sure what causes that but it was very interesting.  Is this something other have been able to experience?
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tune trainee



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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:24 pm

I have a set up mga canopies that need to be setup properly. There are three in the set one for each of the ma700's and one for my maggie.  If anyone has some set up pointers or a link to a thread to point me in the right direction.  This will help me hit the grown running so to say and save a bunch of trial and error!  

 Have installed the legs and a nylon point in the middle I will lower the spike down to just touch the top of each component.

Wish me luck and let the tuning begin!

bounce
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:17 am

Hi TT

Can you take pics standing over each component for me? Try to find the place on the components where you feel the energy is making it's way to the very top. Like on the maggie the cross bar.

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:34 am

Greetings Tune Trainee

As you remove the damping foam/felt/fibre from your speakers, go gradually and once you got your sweet spot...don't worry, the spot is large in diameter, you don't have to sweat if a 1 inch more or less piece of felt is the ideal or a failure...then consider a few more things:

a. remove all gaskets behind the bass, mid and tweeter unit

b. don't over tighten the driver bolts

c. cut all cable ties holding down components in your crossover.  If you have concerns fix new ties but loosely

d. hardwire all connections in the speakers --be careful with the tweeters, it takes little soldering heat to destroy them, heatsink when you work

e. remove the crossover board to outside your speaker cabinets. Use different cable to address tuning of the tweeter, mid and bass units

Try some or all of these and IMO you are going to get a speaker pair that will make many wonder how manufacturers with all their test gear and investment could not do better.

Sonic
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tune trainee



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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:41 am

Ok thanks for the great feedback!  I sent Michael a picture of the top side of an opened ma700 for him to let me know if there is a better spot than the transformer to use as a top tuning point.  



Sonic you bring up a great list of what to do to tune a generic speaker.  I have removed insulation in small amounts each time and loosened the drivers.  The crossover removal and rewire is on my todo list.  

Other things I need to do as time allows are tune the power outlet as much as possible. I feel like I still need to do some reading to see how to best do this.
 
I need to figure out why the binding posts feel very loose if I don't crank them down,  I know the prefered method is just snug but I fear they will cause a poor connection due to how loose they become?

Next I want to understand why my speakers have bi wire capability and does this mean there are two crossovers in each or do some of the drivers just directly wire in?  The speakers have a tweeter, midrange and a pair of matching woofers.

Last but not least I need to understand top tuning more or better to know what to try and how long to let it settle before making changes.
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:50 am

Your speaker has only one crossover but the woofer and tweeter sections are designed so that they can be effectively separated units if the jumpers are removed.

This allows bi-amping, that is using separate amps for the low and high sections. The amps are ahead of the crossover sections so in the event of a failure and an amp goes DC, the damage is limited.

Bi-wiring may be an audiophile myth.  That is, one amp but two separate cable runs for bass and treble and the jumpers removed. 

Some swear this sounds better but I have not heard any convincing scientific reason why.  Perhaps it is a plan by the wire companies to get audiophiles to buy twice the amount of cable?

It appears that real Tunees don't bi-wire.  Sonic doesn't.  After settling, there is no difference.

Throw away the factory supplied jumpers, substitute with solid core wires from Michael joining the main terminals to the tweeter terminals. Don't be tempted to use one cable to join the main to midrange to treble units.    

For binding posts, use a wrench and tighten the cables down tight by 1/4 turn to seat and compress the strands, then loosen completely and then retighten to just snug the terminals by hand.  Sonic goes turning the posts by hand till they just seat then give 1/16 or at most 1/8 of a turn more.  This will hold nicely but only if you have done the earlier step to tighten and compress the strands.

The let the cable and system settle, check tightness a couple of days down and snug again.

If the cable is too loose you get a defocussed sound.  Too tight and it is small and too focused with ambience in the wrong place (like the front when it should be in the rear of the room) or too dry.
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:28 pm

Ok more great stuff and thanks again to Sonic for taking the time to lend a hand. 

I have removed the speakers to take pictures of the crossover units.  Not sure why it is so large and complex?  I have two seperate pieces one mounted to the back side of the binding posts and the other inside the cabinet further up.  Perhaps the pictures will tell more of the story?

I have had a set of Michael's speaker cables split so that one of each wire from both positive and negative to each of the four terminals.  I will take that appart and put jumpers in that I have of the same wire type. 

We shall see how this works out.
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:52 am

Latest pics








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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:05 am

TT

Have you undone the ties on the 700's yet?



If you take the wires out of them you can play with fields.

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:33 am

Hi Tune Trainee

Complex crossovers can be due to many things but in the end are to fix one design issue or other.  For instance - the woofer and tweeter may have very different efficiencies, so the crossover design is used to pad one down to match the drivers.  Sometimes it is to give complex roll offs so the drivers match in either the frequency or time domains.  The ideal speakers will match without any crossover but that isn't going to happen....however much efficiency can be lost through a crossover network.  

A basic rule is the more complex and more components your crossover has, the more energy you need and the greater amount of musick you will lose.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:09 pm

I agree with sonic with the exception of one point. I do believe speakers can go crossover-less, but this requires a lot of driver matching to do. My speakers for example only use 2 parts (cap & resistor), and sometimes not even the resistor. These driver parts are getting harder and harder to find though.

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:26 pm

I removed the zip ties from the system but the hard plastic clips in the pictures are still there.  They  fit loosely but I can cut or break them off as well if that will make a better sounding system.  

I also tried putting a spring behind the nylon point touching the components on the top tuning boards.  At first it sounded like a ruined the staging all together but I will let it play and settle before making a judgement.


Looking at the crossovers the hope originally was that I could replace the caps and or resistors and let more of the music through.  Not sure if this is possible or if I should just change the wiring and see if I can remove them from the cabinets?


One last note I seem to need the speakers toed in to get a good center image.  If they are pointed to the back wall the stage gets wider but i lose focus.  Is there something I am not doing as well as I should or is there a blockage in the system?  

It seems the more time I spend with my system the more questions I come up with but I only have room tune squares for room or wall treatments.  Reading the paper that came with them said put the burn side toward the wall.  Since I have a ton of burn going on with the tall carpet would I be better balance the burn or preserve as much as possible?


Thanks again for all the help and info! It is very apparent we have a bunch of great people who are dedicated to the tune and helping others!
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:38 am

Hi Tune Trainee

Your centre image projection and focus has more to do with the tuning of your front Pressure Zone -- the wood, the damping, the FS-DRTs/FS-PZCs along with the rack position in the front zone.  Sonic learnt this the long way.  The toe in of the speakers affect the width of the soundstage but if the centre is de-focused or you get the dreaded Banana shaped soundstage, work will have to be done in the front centre of the room.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:40 pm

As Sonic is saying, you will need to get to know your pressure zones in the room. They are your best friends and when your system energizes them you can do a ton that you never thought a room would do. As things keep coming out of your room your going to find all kinds of magic going on that just needs to be tuned in. This is why I like starting with an empty room. Much easier going forward than backward.

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:11 am

I have since removed all but the tv and a small table from the room other than audio equipment and seating. Wow what a huge difference in the sound quality. I was able to then replace my top tuning boards and all I can say is wow. The walls of my room have moved back several feet and each sound takes on the reflections of the room it was recorded in. What an amazing thing to witness! I am quite interested in learning where the pressure zones are and how to shape or control them. I have attempted to use my ears and a db meter to get a feel for it but I may need a bit more information or tips to get me started.
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:34 am

Hi TT

copied this from the archives

might find it helpful

"Harmonics have been in your room way before you ever hooked up your components. Harmonics rule the world of energy flow and control. You cannot name an energy that is not supported by a harmonic structure. In my other life I show people the effects of harmonics on everything. You should see the looks on people's faces when they experience harmonic control and effect for the first time, especially engineers. They grovel for an explanation. They fight for absolutes that don't exist. And when they try to find an answer, I will variably change their world again until they have no understanding. It's no wonder why the high end audio industry doesn't spend a lot of time talking to you about this. I think it's because they're busy figuring out how to sell a box or maybe they're not as deep into the music as you are. We should assume that the designer of audio stuff today knows the art of audio. This would be naive. You my friend are entering the deep.

In my last post I talked about listening and getting to know your surroundings and then I had to stop. I had to think about how I was going to tell you about something that comes completely natural for me. I listen to harmonics more than I listen to fundamentals, BUT HOW & Why Lets start by turning that around, WHY First, If we get a grip on the space we're listening to first, we know what the system has to do to get there. We also know if the system will get there. Many times, when you guys list your systems, I know if it's going to even get close to what you are wanting or not. This is why I try to get to know how into this you really want to go. Most guys I have found want to go a lot deeper into their music than they admit. This is where that EGO thing can come in again. It's kind of like true love; everybody wants it but is more afraid that they're never really going to find it so they work out a safety plan in their minds instead of being totally open to the vulnerable situation that true love can put you in. True love or anything true, does not know a second place, but many times second place seems safe enough to go for. In other words, the fall is not as hard. If you are looking only at the fundamentals of your system you will miss the true meaning of the music. The truth or emotion of the music lies in the Harmonics. This again is why you see me react so strongly against dampening.

I was talking to a competitor of mine the other day and he was telling me "you know this stuff isn't rocket science" and I wanted to tell him so bad, "Yeah, that's because you only want to kill the sound." Restoring the sound is far more involved. If you get the fundamental before the harmonics, chances are you are not getting the whole picture. How can you tell? Run to your local music store and grab ten CDs, don't look at what they are, just grab them. Now come home to your system and make all of them sound good. We use to do this in my stores -- 10 CDs, ten nights. The guys would get off work, come to my place, and see how the CD of the night would sound. The only rule we had was that there was no such thing as a bad sounding CD or LP. Next experiment, play your system for an hour. After you have been totally into it, turn it off. Now talk in the room for the next 5 minutes. Hear the air? Feel the boundaries of the room? Hear the live and dead spots? If not your not letting go. When I just did this I can hear so much. Do this. Are you pinpointing things (sounds) in your mind or can you hear the whole. Now let the room pull your mind into each little area. Look at your room as if by Braille. Now sitting in your listening chair, clap your hands very quietly or click your fingers. Do this one foot out in front of you. Raise your hands one foot an do it again. There, hear the harmonics? Now raise you hands one more foot; even more. Now stand up, move to the center of the room, make the same sound. Don't listen to the echo, listen to the room. Focus on the different notes that are being produced by the room. In my room, when I do this, I can hear 3 upper harmonics and 1 lower harmonic very easily. What do you hear? Get used to this sound, this structure. Now sit down again. Make the noise again. Can you hear it? Even though the volume of the upper harmonics has changed, teach yourself to open up until you can hear it. Take your time; we're not going any where. Now get up and speak. Hear those same harmonics? Notice that whether you do a high note or a low note the harmonics are still the same. This is your room's harmonic signature. This same theme will carry through your whole house even though the rooms sound different. Walk into another room and listen to these harmonics. See how the same harmonics affect the sound of your voice? Same voice, same harmonics, different harmonic signature. As you walk through your house listen not to the change in your voice just yet or even the feeling of your body changing, but pay only attention to the harmonics. Surprised at how different your voice becomes from room to room? These harmonics are what are changing your voice. The harmonics are so strong that you can actually feel your voice moving from your chest, to throat, to nasal, to head, to diaphragm. How are you doing? are you still with me?

Go back into your acoustical listening area and listen to every sq. foot of that room and you will find the mechanical acoustical answers to your system. Take your time. Are you relaxed? Don't force it, everything has its own time. After you have explored the harmonics of your room, go back to your listening chair (remembering what you have heard) and see if you can hear the harmonic structure as a whole. LET GO. Listen to the depth as you turn your head toward different objects. I'm not going to cover pressures zones tonight, I want to see if you got this or not. Now right where you are at in your chair, talk facing the wall in front of you. Say the words, "Let go". Do this three times facing forward then point your head up and repeat yourself. Hear the difference, both fundamentally and harmonically. Remember that it was the harmonics that made the change in the sound.

Now that you've done this, walk around your house or wherever you have to go and realize the importance that the harmonics the part changing your voice) are. Spend the next while listening to the spaces you are in and how they affect sound and feelings. If you grab this you will enter into a new world of understanding and sensitivity. I listen to these harmonics so much that sometimes I almost have think about fundamentals, and their existence. If they are changed so easily why do people get so stuck on doing them first? Think about it. The next time you go to the supermarket, take it all in. See, or hear, how much is really there? A LOT . Once you start letting loose the harmonics in your system, you can start to see the bigger picture of the recording. Hint -- if the recording is not at least as big as your room, you've not unlocked the door yet. That's no big deal, but remember that there's a lot there for you to hear. Also let your system play sometimes and don't worry about the focusing of the fundamentals, here's why. If you get your system to reproduce the fundamentals first, and then snap your soundstage into focus, then you will experience a far bigger picture and the instruments will be full-size and very focused. "SPACE" IS THE KEY TO REALITY IN LISTENING, IF YOU DON'T HAVE "SPACE", YOU'RE NOT GETTING THE PICTURE. Who wants to listen to the nasal cavity when they can have the whole thing?

Advanced Listeners

As the high end world seems to live in the dark ages, you have decided to forge ahead into the deeper parts of listening and understanding. Pressure zones are a big part of this. Pressure zones are simply the areas of the room where acoustical pressure builds up. The shapes of these areas are spherical and can be all different sizes.

In an empty room, you can find the major pressure zones in the corners, mid seams, center and thirds of the room, but they are also found on every multiple of the room. You can also create pressure zones by placing fully or partially enclosed objects in the room. This is why you always hear me giving advise about furniture.

I like starting with empty rooms, then slowly adding to them so I can hear the effect the objects have on the room. Many listeners biggest problem with their systems is their furniture. Pressure zones are highly sensitive and control much of the room's sonic signature. Pressure zone also take on the character of the room's mechanical make-up, such as materials and humidity. Shaping your pressure zones can yield bigger sonic results than almost anything you can do in your system.

Let me give you an example. I love sitting right on the edge of my room's pressure zones. It not only yields me a great three dimensional soundstage, but it also allows me to find my tonal balance spots. Once you learn how to use them, you can literally shape the sound. This is why I never let anything in my rooms dictate the placement of my system.

So many times, when I see people's systems, I can see that they have the furniture in the wrong place and the pressure zones are stifled. You see, pressure zone work off of each other. You can decrease one by decreasing another one. When people see me clapping in a room, they think I'm listening to and for echo slap. I'm not. I'm listening for how the pressure zones are setting up and how they're affecting the other pressure zones in the room. Once you get used to hearing them, you can start to play them off against each other.

There is something that you never want to do with a pressure zone though and that is to absorb it. When people use absorbers and traps, you can bank that part of the harmonic structure is missing resulting in a loss of signal. Another thing pressure zones hate are bookcases. Sorry guys. Bookcases are a no-no. You don't necessarily want to break up pressure in your room. You want to guide and control it. Are you following me so far


Pressurized People

While we're talking about Pressure Zones, I've been interrupted buy a building inspector. This gives me a chance to tell you what happens to Pressure Zones when you open up your electrical system. With my system in shut down mode (not turned off) meaning my wall plates back on and stuff, I could clearly hear my Pressure Zones being affected by the lack of signal energizing them. I know my zones have not changed positions, but you can hear that the system has been squeezed by the fuse box and outlet plates which makes me say once again that if you have anything blocking your sound, don't make excuses for it. Set it free or learn how to live and work with the compromises.

I have been flying through this system like a mad man. Every time I hear the harmonics let loose, I take the next appropriate step in opening things up then making them musical. Balance is the key word here -- making your system balanced through understanding the wholeness of it. How do you explain being able to hear pressure zones? It might be easier to explain their effect on the sound, but I want you guys to really understand them. Once you do understand them, it will make your job a lot easier. For example, in my listening position right now I can tell where I'm at in relationship to the pressure zone by my head and the one by my rack which is on the wall directly across from me. I play with the position of the distance of the rack to the wall behind it and the distance from my ears in relationship to wall behind me. For those of you who don't have a wall there use a PZC, SAM or Floor Stander as your wall. It's important that you don't think of each part as separate, or each pressure zone as separate. All of these parts are pieces of a whole, DON'T LOOSE THIS, we're coming back here.

Go to the most echo-y, boomy room you have. Now walk or move around til you can hear the rise and fall of a pressure zone. Got It? Now stay there 'til you get used to it. Pay attention to the rise and fall of it. These will sound different depending on the materials of different walls. They will also sound different because of the size of the walls. I should really teach you guys this stuff in empty rooms, but what the heck. OK, without getting too crazy here, go back to your rooms and create the same type of sound around your head by moving close to your walls or by using your "Toys". Once you have a little buildup, start playing with the size of the pressure zone. Now if this is going too fast, please tell me. I know I'm racing through this; I don't want to lose the thought because I do this without thinking. Here's the deal. As you change the size of the Pressure Zone by your head, you're also changing the size of the other pressure zones of the room . Yes! Did the light turn on for you? OK, get used to this change in the pressure zone on the other side of the room opposite you. HEAR IT. OK, DO IT AGAIN TIL YOU GET IT. Are you lost? OK, listen to some music then. Change the pressure around your head, then get up and go to the opposite pressure zone and listen. Make them sound the same tonally and in size. FORGET ABOUT THE SOUND OF THE MUSIC. LEARN THIS. When you get them the same, then change the one by your head. Now go listen to the one opposite you. HEAR IT? It has changed. When you change one you change them all. You're probably cursing me saying I can't hear it. Don't worry you're just uptight, relax, you'll get it. Your room is one big divided number. Just as all numbers are a part of all other numbers, your room is a part of itself. Everything is affecting and being affected by everything else. I can see the hate mail "You have ruined my easy hobby". Well then, don't read this part. This is how it works.

Now you see why I laugh at measurements and certain testing. OK, one last thing and then I'll let you think about it awhile or even play awhile. OK, sit down after you adjust yourself to your back wall or fake back wall (do this with your voice, not the music). Make it so your voice is very full. Now turn on the music. DON'T JUDGE IT. JUST LISTEN TO IT. Commit it to memory, then go change the position of whatever is in the front whether it be PZCs or rack, pull it out from the wall just a little then go sit down. Hear how the sound opened up? Now go put it back. Hear how it closed up? Now do the same thing, only this time do it with the area around you and the area opposite you. See how the two areas are affecting each other. GET IT? OK, OK -- ONE MORE THING. Do the same thing with the speakers on the side walls. Now you're playing with four pressure zones. Get to the point where all of these pressure zones start acting as one. Make these pressure zones work together. "



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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:10 pm

The speakers have now been rewired with the proper wire. I noticed a cd that has the sound fade off until the next track began was playing until the dbs were quite low with the sound clear and clean. Good things are happening yet again. I am happy to have read Sonics thread so I will now pull my rca cables out just a bit so they are not on all the way and see what magic will be released.

I have reached an amazing place with my system now. It has better detail and sound quality than any system I have listened too in the past at any price point. Each thing I do brings me that much closer to the original recording. I find that it is some what overwhelming at times to put into words something I am discovering for the first time (for myself). It makes me wonder how many light years ahead others systems are that have several years or more tuning?

I will press on and go where the tune takes me.

Keep your ears open and your systems playing Smile
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