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 tune trainee's System

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tune trainee



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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:08 am

Ok
This looks good to me. What parts do I need to add to my list in order to achieve this? I removed the pre amp from the system and adjusted the gains on each amp to be balanced. I like the results! Minute details are clear and present. Also I might have found a second or third harmonic because the music does not end after the first note. I noticed this change on the drums first. There was not just a thump but you can hear the internal parts of the drum reacting after the original strike. Cool things are happening!
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:24 am

Good to see you taking advantage of the pots of the 700's, they are fantastic sounding.

Get me a break down of all the sizes so I can give you a detailed plan.

Isn't it fun to look inside of a recording?

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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:11 pm

Greetings Tune Trainee!

I noticed that you found balsa made your sound go flat and lifeless. I had the same experience when I used balsa squares in several applications like under the cones supporting the X-30 crossover. In my system, I found that harder woods like Brazilian Pine, Red Cedar work best with the plain vanilla Magic Wood doing OK but not as good as these other two woods. OTOH I have Light Shutters which are working well now but are some light wood...ooops maybe they're balsa...but they are stained and finished so I hope that made the difference.

You're doing well with your system and at a very exciting part of the Tue learning curve!

Your fellow Tunee,

Sonic
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tune trainee



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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:51 pm

Hi Sonic
Thanks for stopping by to say hi. I have been going over some ideas in my head such as tearing down the ma700's even more but I am afraid the space is limited. I do think that I should put in an order for some of the other woods that you have found work well. Michael has put together a plan for the amps and cd player with a top tunable setup. I need to figure out which things will help my system sound better now that I will still have a use for with the new arrangement. I also have a set of speakers and platforms on order. With all these steps in the right direction I should be in the music soon. Until then every small step helps.
Thanks again for stopping by and feel free to add anything that I should do or know as time allows.
Derek
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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:23 pm

Greetings Tune Trainee

Here's something I discovered -- I've been adding Red Cedar to my system and taking out the MW. At first, the sound got better but after a point, Sonic found the musick got colored. Fast and zippy but some tonal weight is missing.

It seems my system needs a mix of Magic Wood, Brazilian Pine and Red Cedar to sound the best (I've yet to get positive results from balsa under equipment).

Too much of one type of wood skews the system's Frame of Tone.

But this evening I discovered a loose cable (see my thread) and after tightening the offending cables, I need to try some of the tunes again to dial in the sound.

A Tuned system is like a fiddle/violin. You don't tune it once and then play it for years. It goes out of tune and you have to re-tune the instrument. Ditto a Tuned hifi system.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:34 pm

Hi Guys,

Yes, it is definitely a blend of wood, size, curing, and associated parts that makes the formula work. One type of wood is not a cure all.

Here are some pics of tune trainee's system that show some more of the areas that can be tuned.














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tune trainee



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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:32 am

Hi Michael and tuneland
I have been giving my system time to settle since the recent changes and it is getting better and better. I did notice that the parts of tracks that are not busy seem to have quite a bit more detail and sound quality. I am talking about just one instrument or a single vocal it is really beginning to stand out and shine but as it gets more busy I lose some focus overall. My first thoughts would be room and controlling the sound and or speakers might be to blame. Since I have some MGA speakers on the way it seems easiest and best way to work on controlling this is the room. What do you recommend? Am I on the right track in my thoughts as far as making changes for the better?
as always thanks for any and all help
Derek
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tune trainee



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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:43 am

I adjusted the feet of the speakers so the spikes pass through the carpet down to the cement floor underneath. This seems to help with controlling the sound. I also used my isolation cones under my rack to do the same.
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:32 am

Hi Tune Trainee

How's the sound of your system after it settled? For Sonic, I have found the best all round wood is Magic Wood (whatever it is). The cedar and Brazilian pine have signatures that is a little more trouble to sort thru and integrate in to system. Have you seen Michael's chart on how to place loudspeakers and listening positions? If you have your speakers near the front wall and you seat placing you within a could of feet of the rear wall, you can activate 2 pressure zones and it can give you a very big soundstage that extends beyond the edges of your speakers and sometimes outside your room.

Sonic
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tune trainee



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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:23 am

I had a friend over today and he noticed that the image is weak. I listened to it and found the same thing. I tried to undo the last few adjustments I made to positions and such but it did not come back for me. He did notice since his last visit that the detail is considerably better as far as hearing things that were missed and the clarity is great. But is there any reason I should have a week center image? I have not listened to it for a week but did not exspect to hear a dramatic difference. I leave my amps on when I do not listen to it but cd player off.
Any suggestions?
thanks
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tune trainee



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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:52 am

Ok after thinking really hard about what else I might have changed I remembered putting isolation cones under the amp/cd player rack. With points down thinking since it was on carpet that the cones would help transfer the energy downward. I almost lost the center image completely. Can someone please explain to my why it worked that way? I have been racking my brain trying to understand.
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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:42 am

Hi Tune Trainee

Sonic has had a lot of problems with a recessed centre image. Some people in my town think that this is depth but it isn't real....it is an artifact that is quite unreal and annoying once you get to recognise it . I found that the solution was being able to expand and strengthen the pressure zones in the center of the room -- the one at the front wall and the one the next row back at the middle 1/3 of the room. I did this with sound shutters and a tune strip on the front wall, the imaging improved and the U-shape soundstage diminished.

The thing to watch out for is a forward soundstage with no dimension in the images. I hear this sometimes and Sonic is working on it. Try listening to some horn and single-ended triode systems and see if there are lessons to learn and apply in your system. They have flaws but they capture something which many other systems don't. Planar speakers have a lot of potential and they do throw a huge soundstage in the room but they can be difficult as I am finding out. Some planars need a higher volume to fill the room but they are OK if you have a big amp with good transient response -- 200W is about right. I have heard some ATC and Proac-based systems where the owners that play music at volumes that may cause damage to hearing.

Sonic
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tune trainee



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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:00 pm

The description of a recessed center image fits perfectly. I tried a more near field listening setup but the image recesses yet again. I do not have the proper equipment to shape a pressure zone in my room yet. I have some platforms on the way and some speakers being built as well. I look forward to getting more tunable as time goes on.
I do not know any audio places around that have these systems. Here in Manchester NH there is a very limited amount of high end equipment available locally.
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:35 pm

Balance is the key to staging!

Hi guys just starting to get settled in here in Vegas. Sound staging is an act of balance. It has little to do with volume except for the fact that every room has a volume performance range. This range is created when all of the basic parts of the system are working at the same output threshold. In other words if a system is straining on any level (amp to speaker, room to source, so on) then the center stage will jump into the speakers or fall back in the sound stage creating a U shape.

U shapes are caused by something transferring too little or transferring too much somewhere along the audio chain. When this happens a feedback is created in the system that causes the music to sound "grouped".

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:33 pm

After all this time the Canopies are finally on their way to TT's system. I'm very sorry I was so slow.

I have to tell you guys I wanted these for myself after the 6th coat. They really sing!!

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:51 pm

As Trainee steps into the world of Canopies those of us who use them should be there for a tour guide.

I'll try to grab some pics


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PostSubject: Spentsome timelistening at a local audio shop   Mon May 20, 2013 12:09 am

I got the audio itch the other day and went into the one local high end dealer in the area. I listened to pretty much everything they had there and noticed some very strong contrasts to what I was expecting. If you have the time to read through my observations i would be interested to see what your thoughts are.

The first system they setup for me to listen to was a musical fidelity m6i (3000) dollar integrated piece and paired it with a Cambridge audio cd player (1800) dollar unit. They played them through a set of thiel speakers in the 4k dollar range. I have no idea what they were running for interconnects and power cords. The sound quality was reasonable and it imaged fairly well. One thing that stood out was the there was very little decay to the softer sounds like breaths and sliding fingers of guitar strings.
I was listening to Nora Jones for each setup for the day. It was in the cd player in my truck when I decided to go check it all out.

I went into a higher end room with 10k amp and a 15k pair of monitors. I did not get brand or model numbers on these. They were running them from a musical fidelity cd player 6cd (2500) dollar unit. The clarity and decay were like I have never heard before and quite impressive (to me). What surprised me even more than that is there was literally no image center or otherwise. I moved around the room to see if i could get any image at all and there was nothing!

I went to my house and picked up my old arcam alpha 9 cd player and b&K reference 4420 both in moth balls for a while now. (I have the ma-500's and a torn down cd player in pieces as my currently hooked up setup.

I went into the high end room and listened to the arcam. the mid range vocals were over exaggerated and there was no decay and fading out of any sound. The guy said we have a musical fidelity dac in stock (800) dollar unit. We hooked it up and the music was more natural no vocal exaggerations this time but no decay still.

I asked to have the musical fidelity 6cd cd player that had great sound and decay hooked up to the musical fidelity m6i integrated amp that was used the first time with the thiel speakers. The imaging was unreal easily to the 90 degree from either side of me and a full stage. We lost the excellent decay that I noticed with the same cd player matched with the high end equipment that had great decay and no image.

I also hooked up both my cd player and amp to the speakers and it sounded very much as it did with my paradigm studio 100's at home but not the imaging I was hearing with the musical fidelity cd/intedgrated amp combo.

I made sure that all tests were done with the same interconnects and power cables so they would not flavor or change the sound in any way.

So my question is why would the high end stuff sound so natural and detailed but have absolutely no image at all and why would the musical fidelity amp and cd player through the thiel have an image that spans to 90 degrees on both sides of me even though the detail and decay were just not nearly as faithful to the original recording?

I have been scratching my head over it for a few days now but why not use the "phone a friend" option on this one because I am out of ideas or reasons as to why?


If this thread belongs in a different location feel free to move itt or advise me on how to.
Thanks for the info and help in advance
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Mon May 20, 2013 4:02 am

Good to see you Exclamation

There are 2 simple answers and one long answer.

The Cambridge MF system was over damped giving you the part of the music that was able to give, solid food without the gravy. I was a dealer for Cambridge and if you look inside you will see tons of dampening. Their idea is to shut down all the fat and get to what they call the truth. It's a very sterile sound and if you add the other components to it you will end up with a very dry impact type of sound with little body content.

The second setup had a phase problem. If something in the setup is out of phase it will cast a lot of air but nothing solid will appear in the stage.

The long answer

High end audio for some years now has not been able to deliver the entire picture. You can travel around the world and listen to everything and not get all that is "faithful to the original recording" and Nora is very simple music. The industry is based on mixing and matching but their only giving bits and pieces of the whole. It seems shocking even unbelievable that this can be the case. After all these are mega dollar systems. Fact is they are so over built that most of the music is left on the cutting room floor. Were I am at right now you can take a walk into rooms with simple systems setup reproducing sound from whatever tuning angle we want to make them, but if we go back down the the storage room and dig out the high end gear and throw it in you will hear nothing but parts. Like your saying big parts of the sound are not their.

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Mon May 20, 2013 2:52 pm

I am intrigued by the new MGA cones that you have listed and the different varieties. How can I use them to help with my sound? If I can focus on one aspect particularly how do I get that 3d sound stage that wraps completely around me. Something I had never experienced before and would love to incorporate in my own system!

Second question I have is would moving my listening position from just a few feet off the back wall to a more central location in the room help or is it all about that room and setup of the audio equipment?
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Mon May 20, 2013 11:29 pm

Hi TT

Have we done any listening tests together? If not when I get back to Vegas (plane leaves in a few hours) we should do the abbey road experience to hear what is going on and I can have you do an acoustical field trip so I know what your system is and isn't doing.

Do you have a recording of Abbey Road?

Here's the first thing I need to know though. When you are playing music can you walk around the room and see a soundstage on your front wall or when you get up from your seat does the sound run into your speakers?




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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Mon May 20, 2013 11:54 pm

We have not had the opportunity to do a listening test together yet but I would love to. I will pick up that cd so we can a good reference. I will listen to my system tonight to let you know about how the sound stage is in different locations. I need to move a few things out of the room since it has been a catch all for extra stuff for far too long.
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Tue May 21, 2013 1:29 am

This is excellent Exclamation

here's a thread to get you started on the AB experience http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t66-abbey-road-experience

We can take the songs and follow each others sound.

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Tue May 21, 2013 5:00 am

I listened to my setup and was able to hear the sound stage when walking toward the speakers until i was about a foot in front of them. If I move from center either left or right the staging crumbles and I get just left and right speakers.

If I take an mp3 and convert it to burn on a cd would that do the trick or should I just wait until the cd is in hand? Ordered a copy of Abbey road and it should be here by the end of the week.
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Tue May 21, 2013 10:00 pm

Hi TT, lets try to do most by CD then we can look at other sources.

Your Maggie made noise? A common problem if the transport is just even slightly off balance (the maggie can be a chatter box), however the amount of music info and musicality off this player is far better than anything out there so if you get a chance maybe we could give it another try but we won't tear it down quite as far. Look at some of the other setups and we should maybe take it down to that state only.

This would mean the top cover off and a hardwired power cord. Let me know if you don't find good pics to show this and when I move in the next couple of days (moving into a better listening area) I'll take pics and show you. Brdges mini platforms and canopies all work well with the maggie.

OK, so if I'm getting you, you are walking straight ahead in the center (between the speakers) and can walk up to the center plain about one foot from the speakers but still in the center correct? And when you move just a little to the left or the right the sound jumps into the speaker? This tells you 2 things to start with. One your system is in phase, and two your room is over damped and system has blockage.

It's not hard to over do the room cause we have furniture in there, but this also means that our speakers are not being allowed to operate in a space that is letting them disappear.

When you stand up do you hear a little better open sound stage than when you are sitting down?

I'm guessing by the look of your space that your best stage is when your ears are about 50 to 60" from floor to ear. Is this correct?

When you sit back down into your sofa how much music do you loose from having your ears at lets say 55" from floor to your seating position?

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Tue May 21, 2013 10:40 pm

My maggie made noise even before it came out of the case. I think it might have been a dud to begin with. I don't have an issue with picking up a new one since the old one ended up in the trash. You are correct the image is better when standing up then sitting down. The room only has room tune squares in it as far as tuning is concerned. Does walmart still sell the maggies? I can pick one up in the near future. Not sure there is still have enough extra wire to hard wire it. Will look through my supplies tonight. Is there anything else I can do to help myself out before we start the tuning process? It has so far to go and I want to get back to enjoying the music!
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