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 tune trainee's System

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Wed May 22, 2013 1:01 am

Yes, the model number has changed to the 2300 but It's the same thing.

let me go look at the pics brb

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Wed May 22, 2013 1:19 am

Ok, where are the speakers sitting?

And are they sitting directly on the floor?

Grill covers off, put them up on 2 X 4's and pull them more toward you. For the grins, what happens when you move the chair and other chair in to the next room? And if posible what happens when all the furniture but the leather chair is gone?

I can tell you that the furniture and wall hangings are eating a 3rd of the sound right off the bat. You may put it back but it's good to hear what's there. If you do pull them out of the room we should do a near field setup to see how you like it.

warning THIS IS ADDICTIVE Exclamation

If my place, I would have just the one chair no coffee table screen on a different stand and pulled a couple of feet off the wall. Probably a bamboo rug on the floor to get rid of more of the burn. Once the energy was flowing I would find that place for the speakers and start moding (voicing them)

You asked Laughing

I'll tell you though that room could be one yet of a listening room. Unfortunately things like this turn into a one man room, but how fun it is to hear that stage open up.

Do you have any tunes left? If so you might have a hot spot on the ceiling about 2' from the back wall.

Are you using more than one source?

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Wed May 22, 2013 1:39 am

Ok now, don't shoot me affraid but picture this



Now this would be a sound staging machine.

This would mean turning the room around the other way and removing stuff. The speakers could then be pulled into position and your stage would grow tons more than likely.

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Wed May 22, 2013 3:24 am

Your thinking the same thing I had in mind. It is my living room so I am not sure about getting rid of everything but it is time for spring/summer cleaning. I have the speakers and audio equipment on the platforms you made for me out of a special type of pine I beleave. The wall hangings are all gone with exception of the room tunes squares, 3 on each wall center and both sides at ceiling. My mind is in motion attempting to get as close to your drawing as possible. I do have a bamboo rug I picked up a while back. It should probably be somewhere between the speakers for the time being? I am wondering if I should move the tv and stand out away from the wall for now as well.
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Wed May 22, 2013 4:30 pm

What is it I always say "a picture says 5000 words".









nice to see the tools!

thanks

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Wed May 22, 2013 4:45 pm

So folks can see, TT is using one of my all time favorite amps "ma 700's"

here's TT's setup



and here was mine



I was using the Maggie here with only the 700's, no preamp, which is why I was asking how many sources. I used the gain control on the amps as my pre. This worked excellent.

Noticed how the system is pulled into the room. I had images that not only covered the room but went way behind me.

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Wed May 22, 2013 6:00 pm

It is very interesting looking at that room layout. I am looking at each piece and it's location attempting to hear what it all might sound like and figure out how to do the same for myself. One thing that is for sure is each thing is not in the spot for a random reason but that it adds to the sound quality and enjoyment!
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Thu May 23, 2013 6:41 pm

Should I be running each amp directly into the wall power or is it ok to have a surge protector type bar with both of the amps connected and source unit connected?
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Fri May 24, 2013 12:05 am

Hi TT

If you can direct is the best but we have tricked out some units to sound pretty good.

If a power strip is used I like the sound of the double wide bodies. I get rid of the wire and the on/off switch and replace the wire with ours. When you look inside you will see that the bars lay in the plastic very loose and are easy to solder up. I solder mine up leaving the third ground undone (floating the power).





However the hanging unit you had looked pretty cool, I would need to hear it though to tell you where you are.

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Fri May 24, 2013 1:11 am

I moved everything in the room today. I could not resist trying it all at 90 degrees to its original location before moving on to the 180 degree rotation like in Michael's drawing.



There is still a bunch more in the room that needs to find a new home but part of the task is cleaning out other spaces to put the stuff the comes out of this room in. So it is a somewhat messy work in progress but tuning feedback is a great thing before I spend a bunch of time setting things up in the wrong place and what not. The different dvd/cd player sounds much better than the sony dvd player in I had in the system but a maggie replacement is on my to do list. I sent Michael my 90 degree pictures and 180 degree pictures to help him help me understand things better.





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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Fri May 24, 2013 6:13 am

I figured out that the reduced imaging was over tightened feet on the speakers. Which had me thinking if the 4 feet on the speakers can have such an effect I should remove the rubber feet on both amps and use some of the specially treated wood from Michael to rest the amps on.

Differences I noticed from changing the room orientation and adjustments.

Noticed two things that I have never heard before one is some impressive detail to Clint Mansfield "requiem for a dream". The vocals on that track are set back and very low compared to most recordings and it came through nicely even at a low listening volume. The other thing that was noticeable was that the sound in the seating area was louder than where the speakers are. If I walked closer to the speakers they sounded quieter then in the middle of them. I must be discovering the pressure waves of the room and listening environment. This is fun stuff!
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Fri May 24, 2013 11:20 pm

I removed the pre amp from my system and replaced the surge strip powering it with a unit that I tuned with the same type of wire that is used as power and speaker wire throughout the system. I also removed the switch and surge protection hardware as well. It was finished off by putting a new low mass plug and put it together with the screws just shy of tight. More and better defined images are coming through for me.

I have a new maggie on its way this week and a copy of Abbey road.
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Fri May 24, 2013 11:51 pm

Exciting, and the system has not even started to settle.

So now your down to CD Player, two 700's and speakers?

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Sat May 25, 2013 12:30 am

Yeah that is what it left. It will be ma700s and a maggie plus my speakers. Can't wait to hear it! I have never been so excite to get a 35 dollar component to make my system sound better!
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Sat May 25, 2013 8:51 pm

I was doing more listening to my system today and decided I need to dig out the stereo test cd to make sure both channel are balanced since the pre amp has been removed. One time it would seem the left is louder then the right. After getting the cd playing and db meter running to make sure I had an accurate measurement the issue was at a certain frequency one was louder and another frequency the other was louder. So my mind wandered and came up with a list of things it maybe such as interconnect speaker wires loose and what not. These were not the case but in the process I was able to find the culprit. I have loosened my drivers in the speakers to just less then snug to remove tension. I never noticed the tweeter was mounted to a plate with 3 recessed torxs screws. I went a head and checked those and one was super tight almost to the point of cross threading. After adjusting that the db meter could not tell any difference between them at any of the test frequencies. My Image was very nicely define and a bit off to the left. After a few songs the image walked right back to the location it should be and WOW was it better than it has ever been! Instead of just being about to point to the person singing is over there it was like I can close my eyes and point to the persons mouth!

The addiction has bitten me for sure. I hope others get the chance to try and use these techniques to get the best of the the equipment they have. I have cut the entire value of my systems components down to about 1/3 and increased the sound beyond what the audio retailers would sell for 10's of thousands more. this is by no chance my destination but a stop to report progress in the journey of audio.

One question for Michael or others who may understand better than I do why did the image walked over after making the correction instead of just appearing there once the adjustments were made?
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Sun May 26, 2013 2:25 pm

Hi TT

One of the biggest tools of the tune is "settling". This is more than likely why you heard the walk. Amazing isn't it, when you hear settling in motion.

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Sun May 26, 2013 6:43 pm

It was quite amazing to be honest. Like the system was tuning itself while I was listening! I would like to know what cones you recommend for the 700's? I would like to set them up off the platforms properly. I also would like to pick up more of the tuned wood for the system so all contact points with the platform will be cones and or wood pieces.
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Sun May 26, 2013 8:18 pm

Not having a 700 here but knowing it pretty well I would guess

2 AAB1X1
1 AAB1X1R
1 AAB1X1SB

per amp

The R could even be a SBR.

The wood top and bottom will make a big diference but so would a tuning board with spikes.

I would do the cones and wood, with them on a tuning board, then sitting on the platform.

Have you cracked the screws on your platforms lately? Where you are at the wood can swell easy and the screws get tight.

I'm doing a thread on platforms that you might want to follow.

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Mon May 27, 2013 7:32 pm

If you get a chance and can find the words, tell us what it sounded like to hear settling in mid process. It's always interesting to me to hear things opening up at the same time they are focusing in. It's kind of a weird sensation and I often wonder how to explain it cause if heading in a right direction things are getting bigger, louder, and yet the focus is like a camera.

Kinda like a wide lens and the auto focus in slow motion happening at the same time.

I always get a kick out of folks doing A/B jump testing. How can they possibly end up anywhere good?

How long does it take you to make a change and how long do you wait before making the next move? This is something at times I have gotten down to a science but it takes a lot of time to know where I will end up before I truly listen to the move I just made. I personally have learned to have to listen in settling stages.

it's a lot like cooking

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Mon May 27, 2013 8:22 pm

I will do my best to put it all into words for all those who wish to understand better. When I am listening to the music and enjoying it I hear the staging get more defined and my ears pick up on it so I listen to that aspect even more. I went from hearing the person up front in the space to having the person singing to me and I can point to their mouth. When it comes together you have so much more then just right to left image there is height and depth or distance. Then I focus on other aspects and find the same transformations in balance and harmonics. It is sorta like listening to a recording to being there in the middle of it all taking place. Somehow it seems to be so much change so fast I get somewhat overwhelmed. I want to take it all in but have to focus on each different aspect at a time and enjoy what has been gained. It is sorta like when you see a show on tv and but then you dream about it and in your dream you are actually there. You may know your dreaming but everything is so real you don't care colors and smells are like you are there maybe even better. Well if you can capture that feeling and sensory overload, that is the feeling I get when the system settles or tunes itself.

I hope that puts a little perspective on how it comes to life, almost like an organic living thing.

As far as listening I have to wait to listen to any change I make at least let the cd play through and listen next pass. Not sure if it is my source unit speakers or what but it does not come to life until it is ready. Don't get me wrong it keeps getting better the longer I let it play and this may sound crazy but I can even hear it outside of the room. I walk by the open door as it plays and the sound just starts to float in the air is the only way I can describe it. The decay is no were near immediate but the music fades in and out seamlessly.

Keep in mind I don't turn my equipment off so it is already warmed up when I begin but still must wait an hour or more for it to settle. It is possible the equipment I used has something to do with it or maybe it is normal. I am still learning as I go and reality of audio is so far from what we were always taught it is almost like earning for the first time.

I have been making adjustments and reading some more then saying I wonder how something is setup. Then I go back and crack some screws and move on to the next thing that needs to be tuned or setup different. So my system has not had much time setup the same way for long since I moved my room around. I also plan on stripping down a maggie and throwing that into the system once it shows up from mail order.

Does this sound like what everyone else is experiencing with their system once it is tuneable?
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Mon May 27, 2013 9:43 pm

Nicely put

And the part about the letting it pass at least once is very spot on. People ask why I let the same music play for such a long time sometimes. Well you just answered it. The music has it's own life in the system as time goes by and things start to develop.

It's a bit shocking for me even after doing this so many years.

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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Tue May 28, 2013 11:01 am


Greetings Tune Trainee

Congratulations Tune Trainee! You are getting into the Tune when you get into "settling". It might be the spiritual discipline of patience has something to do with it but 'settling" takes time. It is different from the audiophile "burn-in" where the audio-myth talks about how the molecules in the wires need time and signal to align.

The idea of "settling" is a very important part of the Tune. I might suggest that any opinion of a tune/tweak that hasn't been given enough time to settle is likely to be misleading. be careful of first impressions.

For Sonic, I have discovered the 3 - 5- 7- 10 day rule. Recently I made a tune in my system which I will describe in my thread later. But it had to do with how I was top tuning my CD player. After the tune was set up, on Day 1, it did not sound like there was much of a difference. By Day 3, it sounded rather weird, good in some areas, off in others. By Day 5 it is likely we had a good Tune here, I was hearing details and instruments not clear or even heard before. By Day 7 the detail and ambient field started to come together into a large soundscape where I was beginning to hear a performance rather than tracks. Volume may start to increase for a given preamp control setting. When we get past Day 7 the tune will having staying power and by Day 10 I get a good and strong step up in girth.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Tue May 28, 2013 5:51 pm

Hi Sonic
First off I would like to thank you for taking the time to read about my system as it develops.

I was wondering after reading if you leave your system playing 24/7 or if the settling has more to do with time then time played? I have been making so many upgrades and changes lately I have not given my equipment time to settle for more than a day or 2 in between adjustments or changes. I might just leave my cd/dvd play on repeat while I am not listening to it just to see how much it effects the sound. I am not at the level of top tuning yet but hope to be in the near future.
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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Wed May 29, 2013 1:30 am

Hi TT,

Sounds like you are building a wonderfully tunable system with the M700s and the Maggie cheers . You hit the nail on the head noticing the developments over time as your changes settled. And the changes you described are exactly the kinds of things that happen to the sound when some blockage is removed by tuning a part of the system (including the room). Your ears certainly are benefitting from your self-training Cool .

It still surprises me what happens in the settling process. I'll be startled by hearing something very subtle that I never heard on music I'm familiar with, and I'll know it was because of a tuning change I made. I may even hear it while in the bathroom shaving, or in the kitchen preparing something to eat. It comes through that clearly.

You're really getting the hang of this tuning thing and I'm looking forward to learning more about your experiences as you tune your system and get more and more out of it.


jocolor jocolor


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PostSubject: Re: tune trainee's System   Wed May 29, 2013 2:53 am

Hi Drewster thanks for the kind words.

Michael teaches a lot of theory but I sometimes wonder if I am putting it all to work the best way. Been working on coming up with a list of next tunable parts to put into my system. There are some very nice looking cones that Michael offers which sound like like a good idea for under amps. I have just platforms and wood pieces under my amps now. Then Michael informed me that they offer UV tuning board with spikes. If incorporating the tuning board with spikes is there no longer a need for the cones or could they be used together? I wonder if the transfer of energy is better or worse? One thing is for sure there is so much to learn and I know a bunch of it is trial and error but I look at this forum and all of it's people as a great resource to tap into when unsure.
Thanks in advance for all the help and suggestions!
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