Michael Green Audio Forum

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
 
Our Website  HomeHome  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  

Share | 
 

 Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3384
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:19 pm

Hi TuneLand

Recently "enjoy the music"s  Steven Rochlin wrote a memo to the High End Audio industry. I thought it was very interesting and as reading it my own views started to form. I imagine the same happened with many folks in the high end audio biz and it would be great to hear their thoughts but I thought I would tell my take here.

I wrote to Steven and got his permission to copy and paste the article and I will (parts of it) but I also want to share the link so you can see the memo in it's environment and context.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0613/my_memo_to_the_industry.htm

The opening line is what pulled me into the article.

Steven starts

"Have had this article in my head for a long, long time. What you are about to read will have one of two outcomes. These consist of:

1. We all work together to inspire people to enjoy the music to its fullest.

2. We stay happily in our comfort zone, perhaps never truly reaching our potential."

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3384
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:45 pm

Ok, got me sleeves rolled up and ready to tackle this step by step. Keep in mind these are my views and may be different from the points Steven was making. However I do want to say that Steven really cares about high end audio, the audiophile experience and music.

Steven

What spurred me writing this are some personal realizations. Long story short is that while Enjoy the Music.com has done so very much for so many, I personally have failed to achieve my goal. Due to this site I wonder how many people have we truly reached into discovering the joys of music through higher quality audio equipment. How many people hear the music as the artist(s) truly intended when in the recording studio?

mg

There are a few things involved in reaching this level of sound that I believe high end at it's very best has still not done.

Steven

Hearing music with the same passion and inspiration as when it was created. Perhaps my goals are set too high, or ambition has gotten the better of me, yet we know about Rolex. And how about Ferrari? Go up to someone and ask them about Ferrari and see how much they know. Rolex may be a bit trickier, yet they at least know the brand and why it is generally considered high quality. Now let us compare this to an entire industry called high-end audio. Go up to someone and ask them about high-end audio or name some ‘major' audiophile brand. What happens? So yes, if I am to be honest with myself and look back at my personal ability to create and then reach some form of common knowledge concerning high-end audio to the masses, or at least greatly enhance some minor curiosity about our industry, then yes I alone have missed the mark.

mg

When I ask people this question they "do" have an answer... Bose. This may sound crazy and the typical audiophile is right now sending hate mail, but the truth of it is there are companies out there that are able the throw a system together and have it sound half way decent to the common ear.

Michael, how can you say this? Well give me a chance to finish this.

Steven

During the recent T.H.E. Show Newport Beach 2013 event I had the honor of being part of a ‘Meet The Editors' session moderated by the man who literally wrote books on high-end audio; editor of The Absolute Sound Robert Harley. A very important question was asked regarding as to why virtually no one knows about the high-end audio industry in America. While others on the panel gave informative answers, my admitting personal anger toward myself reply was "Because we suck at marketing! I can't be any more blunt than that." At first blush that was a bit, well, not the most delicate answer nor the most tactful. Yet the point still remains, why is it few know about the joys of music via high-end audio? Yes, shall stand by the basic premise of my answer... and now will allow you to dive deeply into my mindscape.

mg

My answer to the question is because the audiophile is asking when are we going to get something better, and H.E.A. hasn't delivered. The difference between a Bose system and a typical high end audio system is not that big. When I have people here to listen or someone stops by a tuned system they are Shocked  maybe even frightened, doubting this as being real compared to their listening to high end. Let's be honest, what's so great about the way the typical high end audio system sounds? Personally I think the high end systems of the 80's and 90's walk all over the ones of today for the most part. I also think some of the lower end smashes the performance of many if not most of the audiophile system's sound. If this were not the case there wouldn't be thousands of closets full of disgarded equipment that didn't make the sound the listener wanted. Rolex and Ferrari did not make year after year bad products trying to pass them off as the best. These companies have a progression to their claims and stake and high end doesn't have the same disciplines.

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com


Last edited by Michael Green on Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:55 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3384
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:29 pm

Part 2 A plan

Steven

A Business Plan We Can All Benefit From
First, wipe out any political or social difference at some point or another, real or imagined, you have had with anyone else (or product) within the high-end audio industry. We are all equals; none of us are saints or sinners. Remove emotion per se. Here is my Jerry Maguire memo. Perhaps a humble business plan that my mind created and also looked at from various emotional, psychological... and yes financial angles and said "Hey, this could actually work!"

We rebrand high-end audio to better reflect our goal rather than the industry itself. The terms ‘high-end audio' and ‘audiophile' are dead to the masses. Don't blame me, I didn't kill it. None of us did! Remember: We are all saints and sinners. We are all equal. What we did was neglected it in the marketing sense and it died. To beat the proverbial dead horse once more, what I mean is, consumers hear those words and.... You know. So rebranding is a must imho. We'll call it, for example only, ‘True Music™' as this phrase came to me in my sleep and the phrase "Be True To Your Music™" rings with delight! After all, we represent equipment that aims to be true to your music. It works on both the mental and, equally to perhaps more critical emotional level for consumers. When you hear this phrase you ‘get it', provided someone tells the public what to ‘get'. (Note, the ™ is... for example only).

mg

I totally agree, High End Audio as such is dead. This is something I said would happen back in the early 90's, but my take is different. The "real" press was more than willing to carve out a place for high end audio in the late 80's early 90's and there were plenty of celebs who wanted to jump on board. But here's what you need that high end doesn't have, "a positive attitude". High end audio is one of the most negative mini industries out there. Try to be innovative on one of the forums and you'll be flamed from here to eternity. The press is closed minded the designers are close minded and as a result most of the hobbyist are close minded. For this reason I have always kept one foot outside of the audiophile scene and kept focused on the music. Egos are one thing, but egos without accountability have all but ruined what started out as a fun hobby.

Steven

What I see within our industry is a vast quality, and quantity, of resources that are being wasted. Said resources could be utilized to achieve our goal. Yes we need strong marketing. Of course marketing without the ability to deliver is stupid and let's face it, we already have the high-end equipment, we already have the ability to deliver apps, we have great guys who have written books to help the newbies, we have the entire high-end audio press literally ‘in our pockets', and, most important of all the high-resolution music from HDtracks, 2L, Naim, etc to support this initiative.

We need to form an audio standard that represents True Music, so the public easily know the difference between mp3 and low-fi products from true quality. Loosely think of THX as an example where consumers saw a logo and this said to them it passed a certain criteria. The kicker here just to tease you before I break down the details and various revenue streams, major record labels always love reselling the same music over and over again. And with mp3 being so, like, you know, ‘yesterday's hardware n' stuff', and so this new True Music™ re-branding with logo will be gladly grabbed by them accordingly. It allows them to resell the same music for some marketable reason, and it helps if some highly respected industry is endorsing it too. Be honest, the CD beat out the LP in the eyes of consumers. Why? You know what format is better. But it was the marketing combined with convenience that won. Yet now we are at the very cusp of high rez audio file playback ability for the masses in all their devices. Now is the time!

Having a great idea is great, but equally as important is timing.

Be at the right place at the right time!

FACT: Soon we are going to be getting mobile devices with the new Wolfson Microelectronics WM5110, the industry's first quad core High Definition (HD) Audio Processor System-on-a-Chip (SoC). This new highly-integrated, low power HD Audio Processor with advanced DSP feature set is designed to deliver HD Audio performance of 24-bit/192kHz for smartphones, tablet computers and portable multimedia devices. Ok, that's only one of our hooks in. It is not key, but it can be big-ish if we want it to be. These cell phone hardware companies are always looking for ways to tout how their technology is excellent because said device can do this, that, and the other thing. Again, this is not key, yet does mean now high rez files will play in many devices seamlessly for the masses on mainstream devices. Said hardware will soon be in new phones/tablets to be exploited to our benefit.

mg

High end audio has a history of jumping the gun, making claims that are not so, performance wise. I do think that technology is on our side but I don't necessarily think that is coming from the high end. Who are these guys making these assumptions about performance? I do listening test "real listening test" with everything that comes accross my ears and systems and have to say that we need to take a couple of steps back because we are losing music info with the last couple of number changes that have been made. This tells me that we need to take a closer look at our reference systems to see what they are doing wrong.

High end audio is limiting itself if they think that a 10 foot wide 6 feet deep and 7 feet tall soundstage represents a recordings captured source. this is something high end audio needs to learn from the tune and until they do they are never going to break out of the better sound box.

Steven

So Now The Details
All high-end audio manufacturers, dealers and press band together, as a bundle of wood is stronger than a single stick. The British have their organizations, Germany has High End, other countries accordingly yet what is reported to be one of the most vibrant economies has no organization. No real ‘voice' if you will to help set the standards. Why? Let us all as proud members of the entire world of the high-end audio industry including manufacturers, dealers and the press, the industry... everyone we can in the world work towards this goal. Let us work together for a common goal of rebranding our industry and thus making everyone aware they can enjoy higher resolution music not just via digital downloads, yet also via top-quality equipment. Achieving this goal will, in turn, help us all in the long run while at the same time bring high quality music and playback equipment to the masses... or at the very least a larger audience than we have today.

So what do we need to market basically? Well, we need a logo/phrase that reflects our goal and how upon them seeing/hearing said logo/catchphrase it triggers them to instantly know what it means and why. Woke up this morning (2nd day of constructing this article) and the term ‘True Music™' and phrase ‘Be True To Your Music™' came to mind. Without a solid foundation for humans to link to, both mentally and emotionally, then there is nothing to build upon. We need music to go along with our scheme, right? Well, I bet that within two seconds you can name three different great guys capable of producing great music who are within the high-end audio industry. The video side is also relatively easy as we also have audiophiles who, as an extension, are videophiles (or vice versa). These are top level people we have within our industry too!

Then we need faces. Very famous ones. Front men and woman – musicians, engineers, etc -- who have a great message and can reach the masses. I bet you if we even gave it half an effort we could get three or four big name musical artists aboard. Am sure Wilson Audio has some clients, or perhaps Manley Labs... or Antelope Audio. Maybe Chad of Acoustic Sounds has the connections we need or some NYC, Miami, Tennessee or LA based reviewer? So we need perhaps three ‘ambassadors' of the industry per se to start with as preparation. One to reach the ‘old guard', call it a demographic from 40 on up. Then we need someone who can reach the craving-to-be-cool youth, say 16 to 25 year olds. Lastly, someone who can bridge it all together with passion and vision that reaches everyone, especially those affluent types who want to aspire to what is widely considered to be great things, including having the best within their home.

mg

This again was something that was looked at years ago but as we mentioned "EGO" got in the way. Might I recommend that we realize that we part of an ongoing industry and stop trying to make ourselves into something we think is better when it is really not so.

High end audio to me represents something that goes beyond the norm in sound. I haven't heard this "beyond" at any shows in the last 15 or so years and neither have the people who have reported to me about the sound. We not only have to talk the talk but we also need to walk the walk. Remember that in the long run the public wants to come in and be blown away and it's not happening. It's not the shows fault their doing a fantstic job. This lies solely on the designer, listening experts and the retailer.

Why would I get excited by a show, store or review if the proof is not in front of me to listen to?

I made this plea to the industry several years ago when I saw that the shows were getting away from serious listening and was greeted with a huge wall of "negativity" from one of the leaders as if the listening was not important. I also made a 350 dealer tour and saw no one stepping up to the good listening table. The industry became box movers, and I ask how is that different from low or mid fi? I can walk into a B & O store and at least be entertained. In a high end audio store all the client gets is a look down someones nose. Not so funny now that the high end is in the dumbster though. The industry need a lot more than snob appeal but this is all it's wanting to offer.

First and formost you have to have the sound and have it repeatable, second a nice smile needs to be put on the face of the audiophile representative. The rest of the world doesn't want the name changed they want the attitude changed, esspecially in light of the bad performance. The common man (maybe this is what we are missing here) is not coming to the store or the show and going WOW! When I hop in the M5 I'm going Wow! When I go to the audio showcase I'm (the common music lover) is going, that stuff "looks". Their not going that thing "sounds".

Steven

I'll get to money thing too because... you know why. First it will take effort far more than funds to get the marketing materials and strategic plan ready to launch. Many people within our industry built our companies from virtually nothing and so we can do it once more! But imagine that you are being helped worldwide by everyone within the industry including enthusiasts. Once we have the logo/catchphrase protected by international law; an organization is setup accordingly. Then comes action by members of the press, signage at retailers and logos on products plus the aid of said front men and women plus you, the music-loving public. We have it all to launch at the same time. Sure press coverage within our own publications is easy, buy how about using sister publications and connections we have made with other publications, TV, top musicians, recording engineers, etc. Have everyone write an article everywhere we can with our logo and catchphrase. Connect emopitonally with your audience; inspire them! Meanwhile we go to vinyl record stores asking them to put the logo in their window and on high quality music (quality vinyl pressings, digital 24-bit/88kHz+ and DSD discs). We pull some favors, because we as a group have helped so many yet asked for so very little in return over the years. Am sure many of them are wise enough to realize the fact that this new rebranding will bring them added revenue as they can resell their music, get consumers aware of higher quality equipment, or whatever part of the industry they are in, will benefit financially. Time to cash in some favors folks because it's payback time!

Naturally we'd have social media blitz, with all of us ‘sharing' the logo/phrase to continue consumer awareness/market saturation plus, if you insist, the organization formed will use crowdfunding to kickstart this effort. Said logo/catchphrase will be licensed at a very reasonable rate, as we want to idea of the ‘rebranded' high-end audio industry to True Music™ or whatever we call it to spread to the masses. Market saturation. Signs in the front of high-end audio stores showing they offer True Music™ hardware/software. High rez files on digital music download sites carrying the same logo. Even cell phones that will soon handle 24-bit/192kHz files can be labeled True Music™ COMPATIBLE... with the proper external equipment that will carry the same logo of course. Files and hardware capable of 24-bit/88kHz+ can be silver logo, with 24-bit/192kHz+ being gold colored, 24-bit/386kHz Platinum with gold trim...

If we all join forces to gorilla market with stickers, flyers, articles in magazines, etc, just think of how many people we could reach worldwide, together (this includes you, our loyal readers). When many people hear said phrase ‘True Music™'... they know. Look at Beats By Dr. Dre as an example. Seven or so years ago if you heard the word Beats you probably thought of beets. So why is it we, the entire so-called high-end industry, do not have some organization with a commercially viable phrase/logo so that when people see or hear it, they know.

mg

Not much to say about the last part, pretty straight forward. The industry does have what it takes if we wanted to minus the source talk. High end audio has not source right since the basic CD. All CD's are not equal but this can be figured out without jumping ship.

It's this next part that scares the willies out of me.

Steven

You want more money ideas. Have many yet will tease you with this one that can benefits us all. Every video cable has been through at least two or three versions over our lifecycle, so why are we still using the lackluster RCA connector for audio? Engineers out there know what I mean. We can create a new industry standard connector far better than the lousy RCA. Video-wise, we all went from coax to another coax for composite video to S-Video... to HDMI, so why not have a proper high-end audio connection; licensed for use of course. Let us all finally use something truly high-end for True Music™ signal transfer. Am sure the cable guys are drooling at that plan and knowing the increased sales. Thinking mid-term, about two to three years from now streaming services will also license the logo/phase to show customers they are offering a high XYZ kbs stream or higher once bandwidth allows. Naturally said services can charge their customers more for better quality audio streams accordingly, yet by this time customers have heard the difference, know our licensed-to-them logo and what it means. It is easy to hear, and easy to scientifically prove, that what we represent is the Next Generation of music after the mp3 since, like, you know, mp3 is soooo yesterday! You want True Music™ if you really want the best.

mg

The high end audio industry is making terrible mistakes design wise and if they keep going in this direction will never catch up to low end or mid as they call it. This my friend is a huge mistake and it shows me how much the audiophile design and production is not taking the music serious. In fact right now by mistake or not there are some products considered mid fi at best that are blowing the doors off of the over priced poorly designed stuff. High end audio desperately needs a redesign cause there are some fundamental flaws that are being repeated and as a result buyers are buying up lower priced product and getting much better sound. this is not a "michael-ism", this is reality and I tests this everyday and have been for 25 years. To say High End Audio outperforms is a slippery slope and one that is going to and is burning the audiophile cause they are buying into the stories anymore.

I'm not making this up, look at the pages of tuneland, and I can tell you this represents a tini tini part. When people can buy a receiver and speakers from Parts Express and Walmart and use a Tunepak and blow away their audiophile system this should speak volumes. I don't think the high End Audio industry is ready to be slapped with this, but if they keep making design mistakes the music lover is never going to buy into their claims. People are done buying golden calves.

High End Audio needs to stop trying to move up (their biggest problem) before they get an understanding of where the indistry is. They need to back up to simple again. If you guys want to sponsor a show down I'd be more than happy to accomidate, but I can tell you now there will be a lot of unhappy campers  (egos). Keep in mind, I'm neutral here. I could care less who makes what. I'm just the guy for 30 years that has been giving the sound.

Steven

Reality Knocking
I look at many financial charts daily. Facts and figures and spreadsheets. Historical data, assumed future growth/decline as compiled by leading statisticians (who imho just make things up so they created the result/outcome their client paid for). Now if I take the same generalized equations and do some metal gymnastics as it pertains to the high-end audio industry, factor in birth/death models, currency valuation fluctuations, economic flow/velocity of money, etc it seems to me we as an industry are maintaining. Sure the mobile audio sector is achieving massive gains, but on the whole how are we really doing out there? Readily admit we have immense, perhaps record liquidity sloshing around within the market and high-end audio is benefiting at the top-most level. That's great, it truly is, yet we have a great opportunity for us all right now that can benefit us all for many years to come.

When planning for a year, plant corn.
When planning for a decade, plant trees.
When planning for life, train and educate people.  -- Chinese Proverb

And so I envision us working together... as preparation meets the opportunity we created. This rebranding of the industry helps everyone from those who love music and want higher enjoyment to manufacturers, dealers and the recording labels too! It is indeed something worthy of our time. An honorable goal worth achieving. And that goal is to bring higher musical pleasure to people all over the world. We can do it! You must believe....

Star Wars Episode V
LUKE: "Master (Yoda), moving stones around (using the Force) is one thing. This (X Wing Fighter submerged in the lake) is totally different."

YODA: "No! No different! Only different in your mind. You must unlearn what you have learned."

LUKE: (focusing, quietly) All right, I'll give it a try.

YODA: No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.

LUKE: (Luke tries and fails. He is now discouraged) "You want the impossible!"

Quietly Yoda turns toward the X-wing fighter. With his eyes closed and his head bowed, he raises his arm and points at the ship. Soon, the fighter rises above the water. Luke stares in astonishment as the fighter settles down on dry ground. Luke walks towards Yoda.

LUKE: "I don't... I don't believe it."

YODA: "That is why you fail."



We can do it! Together. Make a good showing and reach out together as a force to make this happen. You are Yoda and you know "There is no try". We have the people; we have the raw resources and virtually everything in our favor including timing. We can grasp at this opportunity and time it right, thus expanding and be proud as the mainstream viability of high resolution music, True Music™, reaches consumers and they learn there is equipment that fully supports their True Music™ desires. It could be those who aspire to having the best (prestige), for those who are deeply passionate about the music.... This is not a debate; this is --- as I see it -- a business logic/mathematic fact as it pertains to emotionally and logically creating something the consumer feels they need, then filling that need with the appropriate products/solutions. Hopefully there are Trekkies out there as we all remember...

Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
KIRK: "I would not presume to debate you."

SPOCK: "That is wise. In any case, were I to invoke logic, logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

KIRK: Or the one.



High-end audio needs you to benefit us all! The above are very broad strokes quite frankly as have far more detail-oriented plans of action and in the order for which they may need to be implemented. Have given us all a possibly workable marketing plan, the way to implement it, how we can create demand and then fill said demand... plus of course monetize it to keep the organization self-sustaining/evolving forward and, most important of all, we finally reach a far broader audience than we of high-end audio have achieved in decades. If not now, then when?



Phew!
So the above is just one guys crazy idea. Before one criticizes it, please also have a proper alternative plan because you have a better idea and way of implementation. At the very least this article will get many within industry talking about what we can do, together. Perhaps, as one personal suggested upon reading the above, I live in utopia. Sitting back after days of working on this 'Memo', perhaps it'll be laughed at like in the movie Jerry Maguire and thus deal with the aftermath.

Me? I just want to be inspired by the music and simply desire others to enjoy it to the fullest. To be able to enjoy it as the musical artists had intended. To achieve this via high resolution music files being played through high-end audio gear, True Music', makes logical and emotional sense to me. My door is always open and welcome other journalists to expand on these thoughts in their own magazine. Feel free to aid in this broad stroke idea to your readers. Make changes to it because you have a better plan. Please feel free to write to me and will gladly publish your thoughts on this site if you so wish. We want to hear everyone's thoughts and feelings on this matter.



"We know your idea is crazy, but is it crazy enough?" – From some Zen book I read years ago.

You may say that I'm a dreamer...

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3384
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:11 am

I'm not finished (maybe haven't really begun) with my thoughts on this memo, but while it's sitting my mind there are a few things that do begin to float around. One of them being what makes Ferrari different?

First thing I think of is that it isn't just Ferrari but an entire industry that has built itself a historical existance. High End Audio has no foundation. For example there was a time you could go into a town and look up McIntosh and get a list of stores to visit. I put in my request for McIntosh in my town and I see a website for security systems. This is the home of High End Audio's most famous trade show and there's no McIntosh listening room? Maybe I'm out of touch, I'll put in Wilson Audio. I come to Wilson Audio's website and put in my zip code for a dealer "your search found zero records, please try again". Ok, I'll try again LA. I put in the zip and get a warehouse looking building that has speakers bunched together with an extremely poorly designed room and equipment piled. I'm going to fly from Vegas to LA and get this? My search continued and time after time the same the of results. If I were a client I wouldn't buy unless I could sit in that drivers seat and take things for a spin, and if I was spending this much it better be quite the spin. Go to these showrooms and tell me if you got a $100,000.00 ride. Ok, I will and did and came back home to a $2000.00 entire system that made those sound like barf bags (excuse my language). I go to the shows, same thing, factories same thing, reviewers rooms same thing. Think I'm kidding lets do this together High End Audio experts. I'm not (please don't get me wrong) trying to be mean here. I'm just trying to give you what a client is seeing and hearing. If these maga systems are really doing what people say they can do I would like to hear it. I hear the talk, I feel the guilt these saleman lay out, but I'm not hearing the performance promised.

Are You?

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3384
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:28 pm

I have been thinking about the state of the industry for a long time and as this memo stays in my head, I keep thinking about things from different angles not wanting to let the thoughts stay still too long. I believe I have touched on the performance side of this and should do more of this and will in time, but I keep getting pulled back into the business side and keep running into the same answer.

The high end audio business is not much more than a disembodied skeleton at best. For weeks now I keep entering keywords to find searches for audio dealers, networks, manufactures distributors and see that this is a mass of disordered startups that seem to fail after a little effort is put in. It's very easy to find high end audio as being passed off as or replaced by stores who were at one time maybe truly wanting to be high end but have turned into cool looking rooms with very poor sound. I did go ahead and visit my local so called audio dealers and what I saw was a huge departure from what use to be. There was not one, NOT #1 true listening room setup in the town of Las Vegas. I made contact with a few other cities and am finding the same thing. High End Audio for the most part has lost all sense of the listening hobby side of things.

So, if I being a designer of the older generation can't find a real listening room how are listeners supposed to be finding them?

Steven, you should take a serious look at this. The 3000 plus High End Audio stores of the 80's and 90's are gone or have changed so dramatically that you and I would not be willing to spend more than a couple of minutes in them at best, and that would be if we were being polite and making our own conversation with each other. If there are 50 real audio stores in the US I would be very surprised. Please don't see me as putting you on the spot cause I'm totally on your side here and looking at this from maybe a little different view but still from the side of "why" and "what" and "how".

TuneLand, I would love to hear from you on this thread.

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3384
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:11 pm

Hi TuneLand

As you can guess Steven and I are in email mode over this topic and as he is preparing the August issue we will more than likely be one of the manufactures that are responding.

Here is my todays email,

" Hi Steven

Yes, "please do" as well I will be adding more to my thread so that thoughts can be seen. I have spent quite a few years away from the heart of high end audio trying to look at it from not only the inside out, but from the outside in. Sometimes when money is the object "objectivity" goes out the window and the next steps in taking the listening experience to the logical place stalls. If we as an industry are brave enough to allow a new High End Audio to take place and let some of the old school thoughts die, embracing the artistic side we will see (as the group on TuneLand has found) there is another chapter of performance waiting to happen that has always been there but not truly exposed. This has been a shocking revelation for many listeners who have decided to move on from High End Audiophile movement and into a world where the performance levels are raise to a place few in the business have ever gone. My thought is, if this higher level of listening was presented along with the very best of sources and other parts, the industry would experience a rebirth.



In the pages of TuneLand you will find (both in the archives and the techno-zone) listeners who have taken the art of listening to a new level. Basically taking the signal path down to the simplist form and building it back up again. This is something never done in our industry before but has allow me and the tunees to see and hear somethings about the audio signal that the audiophile community has never heard. I've been to many of the reviewers homes and mags and they have not even come close to this sound. Also because this is being done all over the world and with many different ears the proof that has been being put into this pudding is very solid. Even as I write this to you I am at a location listening to a full tunable system with tunable walls, floor, ceiling components, cable, platform and circuit box. If you spent one week or even 3 days with me here your view of high end would be changed forever. This isn't about putting a component in a box and selling it but following the signal path more carefully than has ever been done before and finding what exactly it is doing and then allowing it to perform at the highest level. One thing that we have found is that the typical audiophile setup is maybe giving 1/10 the signal. This seems outragous until you experience it. Once you do though there is no turning back and the way audio systems are put together becomes meaningless. I would so like to show this world to you and the others who have the power of the pen. I'm not so interested in promoting me even though I'm sure this will come, but more to show that there is another way, a simplier way to take this industry to a much different state.





This is hard to talk about but very easy to show and tell.



Here's why this is so important. What I have been doing over the last 15 years is not based on a pretty chassis or other selling points but going after the sound with no bias or loyalities. Steven, if you saw a new way, a new level of performance in your listening that went way beyond anything you could put together from the very best of the best of high end, what would you do? This is what happened to me 25 years ago and 15 years ago I finally had to step away from high end audio and the audiophile myths and seek the truth of music reproduction. It has all but cost me everything, but it has revealed a level of listening that goes far beyond anything you have heard. Here's the magical part, there is no absolute sound but a tunable world that is so revealing so flexible so pure that it makes all the followery descriptive words our writing fathers have put together over the years sound boring. Steven, what if at best you and the rest of the audiophile world have been listening to just a portion of the recorded info? What if there was a reason why everytime you and I have walked and sat at any trade show every room sounded different? For 40 some years we have not taken the next step because we have not explored the full signal and how it works. We are doing this with everything we build and put on the market and this is greatly limited the performance. Then what we have done is make excuses about the sound instead of taking it the next step.



Steven this may not be glamorous or even easy for many of the egos to deal with but I an others have taken this step and have been repeating it for years maintaining the same conclusions. Steven if I showed you this and it was as shocking to you as I'm saying what would you do with this? If this was far more shocking than the new source or any audio improvements that you have seen the audio "golden ears" lol come up with would you be compelled to spread the word? And most of all, what if this meant the undoing of the way we have looked at making components and wire and speakers and rooms and the associated tweaks? Steven if you did and had some of the audiophile experts who were opened minded sit with me for a week of your lives even where I am now the industry would change dramatically. Now only would you hear new levels but you would be able the look at the electrical, mechanical and acoustical signal at every step along the path and see what it is doing. Not another audiophile myth and mystery but actually hearing it and seeing what makes it open up or shut down.



If you took the time to follow me on this I would show you exactly why the industry has gone the direction it has and where it needs to turn around and find the road again. I would also show you a new order of performance and how to get there in a far deeper sense and one that was not based on old man fiction egos, but something you would be able to (or anyone else) lay their hands on and clearly experience. I would show you a system that would out perform the highest of high end with a very "cheap" simple system, and a system where all the energy in the audio chain was allowed to perform at the most efficent level.



Steven whether we do this now or long after I am gone, this is where high end audio is going. Let me make a simple challenge, something that will seem absurd. I will put a $29 DVD player up against the industries best and beat it. This is how strong this method is. How can this be? Very simple, our industry does not understand the mechanics of the audio signal and because of this has shut down the harmonic structures needed to make the music reproduce accurately. I'm not throwing high end bull at you but something that you and all rest rest can do for your self once I show you and you and the rest will come up with the same results.


You probably haven't had the time to read through tuneland but there is case after case of this documented and being explored every day. While high end is collecting dust and looking for the next greatest we are producing sound that goes way beyond anyones faceplate. They can't even come close to this sound cause of the misteps being taken in manufacturing. When I made my departure in "97", I made it with the statement that "if high end audio doesn't make these changes they will collapse and run around in the same circle till the old die". What you are witnessing is this truth. Even if you puplish my writing that I am sending to you on your broader canvas it would ring true for many readers and would spark some of the questions needed to make the change needed.



I so look forward to any response and am so willing to be a part of the new High End Audio world.




never undervalue the difference you can make as the keeper of the pen my friend



"to those who are given much, much is required"

michael"

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3384
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:01 pm



So I'm asked "can I put this into 2000 words or so".

One of the biggest questions in the history of this hobby and I need to wrap it up in an afternoon. This is not going to be the prettiest article ever written and I hope my English teachers are not reading, but I will do the best I can. If Steven would be so kind as to put up my forum thread you can see my whole thought process but if that doesn't work here's some of my thoughts.

The real question to me is "what is wrong?" What is wrong with an industry that has been successful at one time and now can't repeat itself? How has the High End Audio industry failed to reach its people and why has it disconnected itself from the music industry? For years we have had the example of the musical instrument industry doing fine, the computer industry is exploding as well as home hi fi and video. We have PC games being played at record pace and the concert and movie industries are highly successful. You would think that High End Audio would be huge, but it's tiny and we need to get real about this. It is shrinking. Lets face it, our little club is getting old and tired. In '97 I said "if there is not a change, it will come to an end." What was I talking about? Not marketing, not a new front end or any faceplate but a better, more serious approach to the art of listening.

For those of you who have high end cars, for those of you who play instruments, for those of you who participate in just about any equipment-intensive hobby, you know you have to make sure things are tuned or they are not going to work properly. How in the world did we think we were going to take a bunch of cables and boxes and plug them together and it was magically going to produce music? Music, of all things?? One of the most interactive complicated senses.

There was a time that we were progressing and it seemed like the absolute sound was within reach, then what happened? I remember this time well and had 80,000 or so clients going to town on their systems and then like someone turned out the lights, the wheels came off the teaching cart and there was a big crash. I woke up to something that, to me, looked nothing like 'the hobby of listening' and everything like the male ego marketplace selling the golden-calf-of-the-month club. The attitude of the quest for great sound became the attitude of the quest for men's one upmanship. I remember I could hardly believe my ears and kept thinking someone was going to speak up, but it just kept getting worse. I started seeing equipment closets turning into equipment rooms and stores turning from sound advisors to box movers. From '81 to '95 I saw the birth of an industry that was unstoppable. From '97 on, I saw an industry that was guilt and pressure based and the music quality in the average system dropped to something that was so fatiguing you almost couldn't beg someone off the street to listen to it. The proof is back in those sound closets and those forums full of unhappy people who are trying to find anything to talk about other than music. You can get lines for miles if you want to talk numbers or specs, but go sit in a room and expect for a soundstage to be any bigger than 6 feet deep, 8 feet tall, and 12 feet wide, and good luck.

Music isn't recorded in spaces that are 6 feet by 8 feet by 12 feet. It's recorded in real-sized rooms. If a system isn't reproducing the original recording space, it's not reproducing all of the music. Recently I had someone over in one of my rooms and they listened to a soundstage that according to them was, "25 feet deep, 45 feet wide and 25 feet tall". This was with a system that in total cost less than 2 grand. This was not said by someone who hadn't heard 'the best', but from someone who had owned it all, been to see it all, and read it all. A couple of audio buddies stopped by the other day to hear my system and I thought I was going to need the jaws of life to pry them out of the listening chair. This is not the first time but one of hundreds of stop-bys over the years who have said the same thing, "Why doesn't my equipment do this? What's wrong with this industry?"

Well....

Right there in saying "two grand" I probably lost half the readers looking at this. Audiophiles have been trained to think that money equals quality. Many are aware that some lower priced components can outperform some higher priced components, but few are ready to believe that a mass market receiver and DVD player totaling less than $200 can outperform systems costing 100 times as much. When I walk into a listening room, my blinders go on. I'm not thinking about equipment brands or dollar amounts. I'm looking for components that can deliver the sound I need. It just happens to be the case that my current reference components are inexpensive and mass-produced. And truth be said, it's really not even about the components, it's about enabling unimpeded signal transfer through the entire system.

The industry, flat out, doesn't understand the audio signal. I've been taking apart high end audio one screw at a time and finding out how the signal path works from the transformer outside your house to the inner ear. Here's what I have found. There is far more music content that is stored in our music sources than has ever been uncovered with most high end audio systems. Let me give an example. You have heard people write about space between instruments that appears to be like a black hole in your soundstage. This has never existed in any original acoustic environment. Your reproduced soundstage should be as big as the recorded information itself, which includes the air of the entire recording venue, including the air in between the instruments. If you are listening to a string bass recorded in a 20'x30' room, that is exactly what you should be hearing and seeing. How did we lose so much of the signal? By distorting the harmonic content of the fundamental note structures you cause a collapse of the signal, which makes the soundstage smaller. This is acoustical distortion.

Let me give another example: If you are sitting listening to your system and it sounds grungy, bloated, or disembodied, this also is distortion. This can be a blur over your entire soundstage, or attach itself to the smallest instrument. And here is where the audiophile industry has gotten into trouble. Instead of cleaning up the soundscape, allowing the the real space and tonality of the recording to happen, they have applied dampening which further distorts the signal and closes down the harmonic structure.

Let me show you how simple this is: let's take the most basic part of your audio system, a hookup or lead wire. When we take an audio signal and run it through that lead wire, the wire passes the signal with the means of vibration moving within electronic current. These two combined are able to host the audio signal. If you add dampening to this mechanical conduit or allow this conduit to be involved in incompatible external vibrations, you are going to cause distortion to the plus or minus of the original signal. Every single part of your audio chain is faced with the possibility of this plus or minus distortion. Plus meaning too much, minus meaning deleted. Getting a system to the highest level of performance requires carefully controlling the signal through the entire signal chain with attention paid to every material and electrical field both directly and indirectly in contact with the signal.

Our testing and listening has shown that the audio signal performs at its best with a minimalistic signal path which is free to dissipate energy naturally and in pitch. In plain English, an extremely low mass system. We have found that distortion and loss of audio signal happens much more easily with high mass, which interferes with proper energy dissipation.

Until the industry understands these concepts, they are going to continue to build products which don't know how to host and carry the audio signal in its entirety, and in tune. Is there a need for a new source, a new name, a new group of wire designs? I have to say no. Through our testing, we have seen that what we really need is to get back to the basics of audio. A complex signal delivered with simplicity and with all the nuances that make the essence of music possible. If we finally develop equipment as uniformly as we have developed musical instruments, learning how to preserve and then amplify the signal, we are going to complete our quest for the absolute sound.



Thanks to Steven for his openness and being willing to stand by as perhaps one of the industries biggest cans of worms is opened.

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com


Last edited by Michael Green on Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:43 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
Robert Harrison



Posts : 254
Join date : 2010-03-08
Location : Harwood Heights, Illinois

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:09 pm

Well, here are my two cents...

Every time I hear the words "high end" I can only think of "high priced." I recall a friend of mine telling me of a local small chain (about 3 stores) called Audio Consultants. He liked them but he warned that if you don't have some bucks, don't bother going there. Well, that didn't quite turn out to be true.

And that brings me to another thing that has always puzzled me: if, say, a speaker designer comes up with what he/she believes is something great, how do they "dumb it down" to make less spectacular sounding models to hit a "price point?" For when one enters an audio salon, that is the first question asked by a salesman: "How much do you have to spend?" The last pair of speakers I bought were 2 way Magnepans, but be assured I wished I had the moolah to get the bigger 3 way model (although now I await a much smaller pair of MGDs). Now, would it have been any better, sonically, and WHY? Because it cost more? This whole "Price Is Right" thing will always leave one feeling that they have missed out because they couldn't afford the top of the line.

At this point, I have to ask Mr. Green's opinion on various speaker models, seeing as he once championed a model known as The Chameleon which I believe could cost as much as a car, yet, he, too, had lower priced models. Doesn't this really say that a fellow can't stay in business without offering choices? Put another way, could Mr. Green, or anyone, afford to stay in business if he said, "Okay, this is my speaker. It's the only model I sell because it is the only one you need. That is my inventory."

Let's face it: audio companies are like churches in that they all proclaim to teach the one and only Word of God. Who the hell do you trust? Do you really have to wait until Judgment Day to find out if you put in with the proper lot? I believe that THIS is what freaks me out about high end. So here I am in TuneLand where the Howard Beale of audio is yelling "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

Yep, here is a guy who is now espousing the use of what many would consider a cheapass DVD player for a front end CD player. Not a fancy schmancy transport routed to an outboard D/A converter which in turn is routed to a pre-amp (do they even still make stand alone pre-amps?) and finally on to mono block amps which weigh a ton each. And don't forget the garden hose size interconnects and speaker cables. I mean, that stuff just has to be fantastic, doesn't it? Yeah, for the manufacturers who can sell you a whole bunch of items.

How many components do they sell you with a watch? "Well, hell, boy, you can't REALLY know what time it is without these accessories. A watch alone ain't gonna do it! You need a dedicated watch face, routed to a gear mechanism and ten other pieces that will, unfortunately, take up your whole arm, but with the optional satellite, you will always be linked to the Atomic Clock, so you will be the only kid on the block to know the absolute CORRECT time to the millisecond!"

As Mr. Green said, many are dedicated to the thought that high end must be also high priced and that high prices ENSURE performance. If there must be a new logo or catchphrase, I like Bill333's "The guitars are in the neighbor's yard." That says more to me than GREAT SOUND, ABSOLUTE SOUND or SOUND THAT MAKES YOU CREAM YOUR JEANS.

In the end, though, how can a whole industry really band together? Will the Catholics and Protestants ever join and teach the same Gospel? One can only sample the choices, I reckon, and see what speaks to their heart.
Back to top Go down
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3384
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:42 am

A letter to Steven

This is great! These are big steps for the industry and I hope many of the guys you are hearing from are stepping outside of the box and maybe their comfort zones. I also think on going talks and follow ups would be really good so the guys of the industry can not only get together but have their thoughts be a regular thing in front of the listener. Also feel free to grab a quote from me if you see anything useful. I realize that some of the statements I make might be greeted with rolling eyes at times, but I also realize this can only happen from people who have not experienced what tunees are experiencing. In this letter I sent I decided to tone down my words a lot cause I do see that much of this stuff is something many are reading for there are many things I would like to talk about from what I have seen over the years that might help others figure out this hobby they have become a part of both old school and new.

Along with this there's a whole engineering community in the recording biz that is just as fixed and needs to move toward the middle. I have spent my life riding the fence figuring one day I will get a chance to bridge some gaps. To the audiophile I don't talk much about my pro life and to the pro side not much about the audiophile life. I have always seen these two worlds needing to be one continuous chain and some day it will be the same hobby but not yet. I saw you play drums so you know this as well. Those of us who have the entertainment or pro side have a lot to say to the playback folks but it needs to be said not from the angle of the audiophile but more the angle from the pro side being voiced to the audiophile. And not just the fixed engineer but again from the open minded ones, who are maybe even less open than the audiophile. The more we have people who have done it all throw in their hat the easier it is to see the big picture. I wouldn't be able to think like I do if Mick Ronson and David and many of the others would not have taken me under their wings early on. Likewise the playback world has taught me much about what needs to happen on the engineering side. On the audiophile side there really needs to be a few companies who look a lot more like the musical instrument side of things and this will happen either in a new type of high end or a converted one. Engineer vs artist is always going to be an issue but both are needed. Over the past few years though I have seen the need for the artist side in the audiophile world but if it's a musician who is a engineer type that does no good. You need one who can look into what makes the sound and explain a soundstage and a sound wave and pessure like it really happens and not some engineer drawing which has done more harm than good.

Anyway thanks for the open door.

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3384
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:55 am

Yesterday I wrote some words on this topic for enjoy the music that will be published. I had these words editted but still inside of me there is something in the original that needs (for me at least) to be said. So I'm posting the original cut so my more randmon thoughts shine through as most of you have to suffer through every time you read me Laughing 
_____________________________

So I'm asked "can I put this into 2000 words or so".

One of the biggest questions in the history of this hobby and I need to wrap it up in an afternoon. This is not going to be the prettiest article ever written and I hope my English teachers are not reading, but I will do the best I can. If Steven would be so kind as to put up my forum thread you can see my whole thought process but if that doesn't work here's some of my thoughts.

The real question to me is "what is wrong?"  What is wrong with an industry that has done it before and can't repeat itself? How has the High End Audio industry failed to reach it's people and why has it disconnected itself from the music industry? For years we have had the example of the musical instrument industry doing fine, the computer industry is exploding as well as home hi fi and video. We have PC games being played at record pace and the concert and movie industries have never put out so much. You would think that High End Audio would be huge, but it's tiny and we need to get real about this.  It is shrinking. Lets face it, our little club is getting old and tired. In "97" I said "if there is not a change, it will come to an end." What was I talking about? Not marketing, not a new front end or any faceplate but a better more serious approach to the art of listening.

For those of you who have high end cars, for those of you who play instruments, for those of you who partake in just about anything, you know you have to make sure things are in tune or they are not going to work properly. How in the world did we think we were going to take a bunch of cables and boxes and plug them together and it was magically going to produce music? Music folks? One of the most interactive complicated senses. A sense like hearing is extremely unique and has different meaning to all. There was a time that we were progressing and it seemed like the absolute sound was within reach, then what happened? I remember this time well and had 80,000 or so clients going to town on their systems and then like someone turned out the lights the wheels came off the teaching cart and there was a big crash. I wakeup to something that to me looked nothing like "the hobby of listening" and everything like the male ego marketplace selling the golden calf of the month club. The attitude of the quest for great sound became the attitude of the quest for men's one-up-men ship. I could hardly believe my ears and kept thinking someone was going to speak up but it just kept getting worse. I started seeing equipment closets turning into equipment rooms and stores turning from sound advisors to box movers. From "81" to "95" I saw the birth of an industry that was unstoppable. From "97" on I saw an industry that was guilt and pressure based and the music quality in the average system dropped to something that was so fatiguing you almost couldn't beg someone off the street to listen to it. The proof is back in those sound closets and those forums full of unhappy people who are trying to find anything to talk about other than music. You can get lines for miles if you want to talk numbers or specs, but go sit in a room and expect for a soundstage to be any bigger than 6 feet deep 8 feet tall and 12 feet wide and good luck. Recently I had someone over in one of my rooms and listened to a soundstage that according to them was "25 feet deep 45 feet wide and 25 feet tall". This was with a system that in total cost less than 2 grand. This was not said by someone who hadn't heard "the best", but from someone who had owned it all and been to see it all and read it all. This is not the first time but one of hundreds of stop-bys over the years who have said the same thing "what is wrong with this industry."

Well....

Right there in saying "two grand" I lost half the readers looking at this. I can hear the comments from here yet I know listeners from all over the world who are going through the same experiences as me. Putting together $200 to $20,000 systems that tear up the best of.... . Many of them have left high end audio all together and are happy in their new found hobby. A hobby that makes you feel like you are at the concert or in the studio. A hobby that has opened it's eye to real sound and real space that the sound is in. Don't believe me? Look at my forum. Don't believe them then look at the droves of emails I get from folks who are happy to get back to music and away from equipment collecting. Well, lost another 25% of the readers. That's okay because maybe the rest of you will hang on to the end. Maybe some of you have that equipment closet. Maybe some have listened to the words of deliverance only to get back to that same old soundstage with a different arrangement of frequencies and are wondering if this is all there is.

So when I ride in my buddies M5 and go from zero to 100 in nothing and I go inside the house of an audiophile and hear something similar to music but not music, not real music, I have to ask the question Steven did "what's wrong." Many guys right now are writing their answers and making their points known. Most of them I hope much better writers than myself are giving their plan or idea, and I should too. I've been in this industry from every angle possible and have put myself in the client driver seat in over 1000 homes, in over 350 dealers showrooms and over 35 different countries high end audio shows. I've also been in a ton of reviewers rooms and many manufacturers plants. Mainly though while the wheels of audio over the last few years have been turning I've been taking apart high end audio one screw at a time and finding out how the signal path works from the transformer outside your house to the inner ear. Here's what I found. Now go pick up your screwdriver and let it teach you something.

There are two very simple worlds you need to know about in high end audio and it will make or break your experience. Take your screwdriver and turn a screw on your system. Can be at a driver, the fuse box, the component chassis, where ever you want. When you loosen that screw if you hear a sound difference you have hope. If you don't you are going to need to start this hobby all over again. The reason why this industry has not gone the way of the Ferrari & Rolex is  Ferrari and Rolex deliver because they produce what they say they can because they understand their "signal". Ferrari understands energy and vibration and how to get the most out of it by using it. Same goes for Rolex, as they are a tuned instrument of precision and timing. High End Audio has not mastered it's "signal". I have spent 30 some years in the lab looking at the signal path. How it travels, where it comes from and how it develops and travels along the conduits and what happens when it hits the air and puts pressure own your ears. I have not been biased by anyone's words or brands. Basically I have taken apart everything that the audio producing world has made and studied how it works as a sound producing device. In those studies I have uncovered some pretty interesting things about the signal and signal pathway itself. These are all things every hobbyist could and should do. I would be happy to show you what I have done and you will see in pretty short order some amazing things about your hobby that you never knew was there. In fact this is such a big deal that some of the listeners I hang with have made the comments that until now they have been listening to "maybe" 10% of the music content.

Before you flame me think about this, no do this. Go in and turn on your system and get out a tape measure and measure off your soundstage. Next sit there a minute and tell me you are truly convinced it's performing like an M5 or Ferrari. So you say it is. Well then lets do the next test.   Let your friend come over and bring anything he or she wants and see if your system still runs like a race car. Don't tell me it's the recording or the Red Book, cause it's not. Your system does not know how to play the signal. It does not know how to produce the signal or host the signal or carry the signal or deliver the signal. If your telling me it does then I want to come over and bring my CD's and if it does my job is over and I can retire. Set up a spare room cause I'm moving in. Fact is I bet you I could bring my CD's over and it would sound pretty bad and the excuses would fly or I would be booted. Why would you want to live in a hobby like that when you can listen to anything you want and enjoy it to the max with a huge dynamic soundstage that lifts you right out of your chair? Oh, your still not buying me? Well while I'm visiting lets walk into your sound closet. My lord, you have a store in here. Are you telling me that none of these are able to produce music? Are you telling me that you can not make that system sound the way you want it? Are you telling me you can't walk into a CD store and come walking out with anything and bring it home and blow you away or me away?

Steven is absolutely correct and I am all in. This industry needs to get on the map, or I would say "back on the map". It needs to back up to right around the time where the bigger is better game got going, and the amp of the month and the egomania writers club and the ad will buy you anything and all the other silly games that took us away from what made us special. A group of guys and gals on a quest for "the absolute sound". We replaced methods of listening with component names. We got in this fever of new products and monthly publications that were tied to ads and not music. We never even tied together the audio chain in a meaningful way. Instead of figuring out how vibrations worked like everyone else, someone stood up and said kill it and we all jumped in. We jumped into it so deep that our sound is sterile and lifeless and anything but musical. We created the WAF and made more excuses about our bad sounding systems than would ever be acceptable in any industry. You would never buy a guitar if it could not be tuned and you would return that car if the air didn't work and the motor kept missing. Your sitting there with piles of stuff that doesn't work and after all this time have not even explored why because some guru said it was the greatest and the industry can't understand or explain why it sounded ok in one place and terrible in the next 50. Well the audiophile says "I have a XYZ", what the heck does that mean. I have a Steinway, but it doesn't mean I know how to play it.

Guys, we lost our way, admit it and move on. We got the big head before we connected all the dots and have to move back to where we were still producing music and make it better.

We need some truly artist systems that produce sound and know how to preserve the signal and ways to test this that relate to more than the scope but the ear. The artist needs to meet the engineer and get away from these meaningless drawings of straight lines saying that's how sound works. Guys, inside a room sound does not travel in a straight line. Where in the world have you been? We have all of these man made audio myths and we're hanging on to them like God's drippings. We need to have some serious "and I mean serious" listening test rooms setup in our industry. Not living rooms full of furniture with these tiny soundstages. No we need places that get down to the sound at what is going on. When I had mine in Ohio, Nashville, Vegas and now Chicago people sat and sit there with jaws on the floor, but not only from the sound we give them but by being able to change the sound in many ways with the same system. Every recording ever made has a slightly different recorded code and if you have a fixed system I can tell you a fact from 35 years of professional listening in and out of the studio, you need to tune your system to the code cause if not that piece of music may not and many times will not match up with the way your system is able to reproduce the harmonics. Now you would think that in the last 20 or so years this would be common knowledge in High End Audio sound, but it's not. If you took a poll right now I bet 90 % of the listeners out there think that it's the CD's problem and not the systems inability to reset itself with the new information. You got guys out there hooking up different systems that make a few songs sound right and play them for their friends instead of guys out there that have systems that can be tuned "yes tuned" like an instrument to match the signal cues. This is something I've have for 30 years and I'm shocked how little people know about this and other things that make this hobby so much easier.

I went into Audio Mag's office one time and talked to one of the higher ups about reviewing my tunable speakers. He said he couldn't. Why I asked? He said "because if I told people there was a speaker that sounded like other speakers the speaker companies would pull their ads". What? Have we become this removed from the music industry? Here's another one with the speakers. This was a somewhat known speaker maker. I said "I'm kind of interested in building tunable speakers using your wood". His response, "we can't build them because they will vibrate". Does this industry know so little about the technology of signal and sound that it thinks that sound of any type whether it be line level or vibrating cones is anything different than a vibrating signal that needs to dissipate to complete a cycle? These are the types of things and many many more that also separates us from the Ferrari's. There are lots of things being sold without being road tested. And we as hobbyist jump all over these things cause we're so desperate to get a fix it and the industry is so desperate to make a sell. Let me put your mind at ease. Everything affects everything else in audio. And let me add everyone has the right to sell an after market tweak, I sells tons, but not every tweak designer or designer period knows the signal path and how it works. Not trying to rain on parades but if you see an audio designer who doesn't have a completely acoustically sound listening facility that is able to deliver all the range of music and a full stage how can you expect for him to make audio products? This industry has virtually no accountability. When you make or buy a car it has to sometime be put on the road (well you would think so). My idea of a systems road test when it comes to high end anything is pretty up there and if I can't put on a simple recording or any recording and have it lay out a decent soundstage and dynamic range I'm a little more than concerned. Hello, remember I'm the RoomTune guy. You know the guy who comes in and tunes your system. Well do you know what I have been taking around to tune in systems and beating up on all the biggies? Well that's a tease but you would be shocked. My point is this. Why is it that Mr. Tune can bring in a modified 35 dollar CD player and blow away every audiophile front end to date in the clients rooms? That's not to my ears, that's to their ears. I've been doing this for 3 years now and not once has the client chosen the audiophile sound over the little tweaked setup. And this has replaced some 7 plus grand big boys. And not by a small margin. This makes me pretty certain that some of the guys are not doing their homework and some of the clients are buying on here say.

There is my first 2000 cents and I invite you to join me in many more.

This industry must change or it will most certainly fade as a more efficient world moves in to take over

Either way I'm gonna tune

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
Sonic.beaver



Posts : 2104
Join date : 2009-09-18

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:32 am

Hi Michael

If the audiophile industry does not make itself fresh and relevant to another generation, it will fade away. Too many times, the young ones think Hifi/tubes/wonderful turntables and tape are their parents' hobby and all the more reason to distance themselves from.

Sonic is an idealist and thinks if someone of any age hears really good sound they will come on board. Maybe, possibly not.

Wasn't some form of High End association formed in the 90s? If any new industry representation is to work it will have to:

a. put aside conceptual rivalries (tubes vs transistors, absorption vs diffusion, analog vs digital) plus include the fringe people

b. demonstrate something that can be admired

c. deliver musick

Edgar Villchur got this right. He had advocates for Acoustic Research -- Louis Armstrong, Herbert von Karajan, Judy Collins, Miles Davis...spanning classical to jazz to rock. It made AR the system play all this great music back on.

It is about music, not equipment, not room treatment, not formats.

The issue is how can manufacturers off all these stripes and themes get together to say "we are cool, we give you music, you hear more with us!"

I think it can be done. We just need to:

a. understand the push and pull factors of our survival

b. get a small active group on board, you don't need everyone

c. get advocates who are not vested in the industry beyond their love for music who can say there is more to music than MP3....look at what I have done.

I like the idea of what Villchur did with his Music Room in the New York Central Station. You could drop in to listen to music -- Ampex tape deck, Dynaco amplification and AR speakers
(3as and LSTs). No sales so no vested commercial interests, only music.

Sonic
Back to top Go down
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3384
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:51 pm

Robert says

"And that brings me to another thing that has always puzzled me: if, say, a speaker designer comes up with what he/she believes is something great, how do they "dumb it down" to make less spectacular sounding models to hit a "price point?" For when one enters an audio salon, that is the first question asked by a salesman: "How much do you have to spend?" The last pair of speakers I bought were 2 way Magnepans, but be assured I wished I had the moolah to get the bigger 3 way model (although now I await a much smaller pair of MGDs). Now, would it have been any better, sonically, and WHY? Because it cost more? This whole "Price Is Right" thing will always leave one feeling that they have missed out because they couldn't afford the top of the line.

At this point, I have to ask Mr. Green's opinion on various speaker models, seeing as he once championed a model known as The Chameleon which I believe could cost as much as a car, yet, he, too, had lower priced models. Doesn't this really say that a fellow can't stay in business without offering choices? Put another way, could Mr. Green, or anyone, afford to stay in business if he said, "Okay, this is my speaker. It's the only model I sell because it is the only one you need. That is my inventory."

mg

This is the type of question that is so needed in our world. I have two maybe three Laughing  answers.

My mind while spending my life doing this has run through 3 trains of thinking.

One) what do I want for me.

Two) want do I need to make for others.

Three) what will sell in the public eye.

The biggest "money" mistake I ever made was saying I didn't want anything to do with a production run of speakers that didn't meet my approval. At that time I didn't think money was the goal, and the ultimate sound was. I was seeing my friends (almost all of them) looking at this industry as a money maker and doing so by giving many choices of half baked product that was appealing but not really the end all be all. Sadly the audiophile was left to figure out this sonic mess, not knowing after a while who was being truthful with their claims and who wasn't. I my book there have been a truck and a half load of audio junk that has been dumped on the audiophile public. Products that clearly had no business being deamed as listenable but more a failed concept, but this is a weird enough industry that people flock to the failed efforts actually forgetting that we are suppose to be talking about sound. A concept to the audiophile many times is even more appealing. The "many" read these articles of "if's" at best and get out their check books. Shocking to me really. It's like an industry creating for their own amusement park of partial listeners, maybe not even listeners if you read other forums but partial hobby addicts. These are folks who are chasing an ego or mythical legends of "might be the one" components. I have looked at this for years and years and am stumped at how the gravy train is able to keep pulling the same wool over the eyes. Guys sitting on the edge of their toilet seats reading the latest issues of what to throw money at. The real designers are completely thrown under the bus because they don't produce things on a marketing rotation. We also see these completely unreasonably over priced "maybe" products (not maybe as in over priced but maybe it might sound kinda good) that do something in part to the sound that is special and leave the rest of the sound on the cutting floor, but these guys run to this as if this was creating music. I think when I see this maybe these guys have 20 rooms and want to jump from system to system hearing a part or piece then sit down in their comfort chair trying to sew them together in their head.

There have been times when I have gone nuts and tried to design everyone elses ideas but with the tuning spin. No one was listening and it was fun to do in my head and in drawings but who am I kidding the industry is so far away from making things that work like instruments and that wheel would need a major Jonny Appleseed to wake them up.

The real crazy man in me is not crazy at all but understands space and vibration. This guy basically looks at the need for small medium and large, and a sub. If I had my own driver company you would see me with speakers based on the driver sizes and how they mate to the size of the wood and types of wood and cabinets responses. They in my mind are more like violin, cello, string bass or a guitar family from small to large or keyboard. I have a hard time getting my mind around models like regular speaker companies do. And like you say companies seem to build their best and then go upscale from that model and downscale to meet the marketing.

In my book I have found that very few companies are able to do a good job at going less and more from their best. I am almost an expert at finding the component in a companies line up that is their best sonic effort. Obviously in High End they are struggling to make a living so start building around these models to sell as much as they can. This is pretty easy math. Look at how many audiophiles there are and how many models there are. There are easily more models than audiophiles. Talk about crazy, this is nuts Exclamation . And what's more nuts is that this group of people have been supporting this all this time. I think part of this is the nature of the hobbyist beast and many people are hobbyist consumers and not really music seekers. They yes may like music but they like more telling the story and playing out the audiophile hobby. Easy way to see this for me was visiting the audiophile forums. It took all but a couple of seconds to see that these people (sorry for speaking generally) were not really into the search for the best sound. Sometime google keys words about the hobby and you see stacks upon stacks of equipment being collected. You also see systems that can not possibly work, and this is what concerns me.

I can look at a system and see how it sounds. I can see how things are matching or not. Here's the shocking part for me. As I look at these systems I can clearly see that these audiophiles have been sold a bill of goods and in many cases is more of a salesmans inventory than a designed system. Things that to the trained eye should never go together are being thrown at these folks and it looks to have no ryhme or reason. Are these clients stuck buying all of their hobby trial and error? Who is leading them I think. I see one philosophy thrown in with another and done like a shake and stir. It's like the listener bought into a very narrow pathed belief and is trying to mate it to another one just as narrow. This never results in good sound. I hear these systems and the distortion jumps off the page at me and I struggle to say any word but "distortion" as to not send the person into a panic attack.

There are two types of clients I mainly run into. People who know they got it wrong and people who defend the wrong to the death. I rarely run into a person that has been taught by the audio community properly or has been self taught, finding a method to listening instead of buying up different parts and pieces trying to force fit them. This is one reason I truly regret stepping away from the public light of High End Audio for those few years. I think I should have got in the middle and taught folks how to do a system, but I was so discouraged by the politics I needed a break. I really did think certainly by the late 90's things would grow naturally into a great listening chapter for the industry, but when I returned saw it had been taken over by some very greed driven people and bad sounding stuff. There were a few clubs hanging on but I couldn't figure out why the dots still were not being connected.

Thank God I ran into some very simple products that were easy to tune and I was able to begin to piece together some quailty sounding systems.

Sorry, rambling as I always do, but back to your point. Wouldn't it be great if there was a lot less stuff? Wouldn't it also be great if designers really knew how the whole audio chain worked? It sounds like I'm picking on them but in reality I also feel more comfortable going to a general mechanic that knows the whole car than I do someone who only knows one part. What if he's fixing the tranny and the strut right beside him is shot and wheel is about to also fall off? Is that driver any further ahead. He's going to get in his car make it a couple of miles and be hitting redial to AAA. This is how this industry is treated and there's really no AAA in sight let alone many full service stations. You hear about people being audio experts but when you go to listen, the same ole tiny stage and limited music choices. This is one of the first things I would think that would make people want a change. There is so much music on Red Book that we really have no need at all for another source. We should be jumping right to computer sound from here and not messing with anything in between. SACD was a huge waste of money and time and we should be looking at how to make our systems work. If we go another source route we are still not going to solve any of the real issues of the soundstage size or bring us any closer to tonal balance. We're barely using what info is on a RBCD, why not figure out how to make systems that are raising this level of info instead of thinking we are magically going to change the sound of something (system wise) that sounds bad. This could really throw high end audio back years and end up with a ton more pieces of equipment in the closets. How many folks do we know that if they had their way would scap this whole digital thing and head back to vinyl? I don't blame them. How many number hoops and formats is digital going to make us jump through? I'll tell you this. I'm taking advantage of my CD buy outs and going to stock up on maggies cause at 54 in a couple of days I can only see myself going CD's and computer. Building another collection is not of interest. Not with the level of sound I'm getting. If the audiophile highenders have gotten to this level they need to be looking at why. The same problems they have now are going to be carried into their new source as it did with SACD.



_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3384
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:50 pm

Sonic.beaver wrote:
Hi Michael

If the audiophile industry does not make itself fresh and relevant to another generation, it will fade away. Too many times, the young ones think Hifi/tubes/wonderful turntables and tape are their parents' hobby and all the more reason to distance themselves from.

Sonic is an idealist and thinks if someone of any age hears really good sound they will come on board.  Maybe, possibly not.  

Wasn't some form of High End association formed in the 90s?  If any new industry representation is to work it will have to:

a.   put aside conceptual rivalries (tubes vs transistors, absorption vs diffusion, analog vs digital) plus include the fringe people

b.  demonstrate something that can be admired

c.  deliver musick

Edgar Villchur got this right.  He had advocates for Acoustic Research --  Louis Armstrong, Herbert von Karajan, Judy Collins, Miles Davis...spanning classical to jazz to rock.  It made AR the system play all this great music back on.

It is about music, not equipment, not room treatment, not formats.

The issue is how can manufacturers off all these stripes and themes get together to say "we are cool, we give you music, you hear more with us!"

I think it can be done.  We just need to:

a.   understand the push and pull factors of our survival

b.   get a small active group on board, you don't need everyone

c.    get advocates who are not vested in the industry beyond their love for music who can say there is more to music than MP3....look at what I have done.

I like the idea of what Villchur did with his Music Room in the New York Central Station.  You could drop in to listen to music -- Ampex tape deck, Dynaco amplification and AR speakers
(3as and LSTs).  No sales so no vested commercial interests, only music.    

Sonic  

Hi Sonic

I'm glad to see you guys here and think that the whole industry should be "where are they?"

The road to turn around is a long one, the road to dying off is a shorter path. If High End Audio actually turns around and cares to do this right, steak dinners are on me. In my book marked calender I see the downfall happening around the years 94-97 then the slide into the abiss.

There was an association formed in the 90's. The AAHEA. I was thrilled when I got my golden notes. This was in the middle of the best of the best of High End Audio in my book and I could easily see the industry making the jump from a small crowd to a widely accepted one. Everyone had their chance to make this happen and we had 650 mom and pop audio stores carrying our products alone. What we didn't have was enough audio experts to blaze the trails and a community effort for audio excellence. In visiting the stores I could already see the box moving happening and the fact that many in the stores had no meaningful systems at their own homes to keep them hungry for good sound. It was very poorly organized and outsiders (the home stores) were all but blackballed. Big mistake cause these were the guys that were listening to music. Another big mistake reviewers started doing the amp of the month club that flooded the market with too many choices and most were poorly designed and ended up shelved within a very short time, some less than a 6 month season.

a) conceptual rivalries is what makes an industry thrive but must be done with class, for example Ford, Chevy, Dodge. In my day it was ASC, RPG and RoomTune. The down side was the huge flood of so many equipment and speaker choices. There were way too many thrown at the public and reviewers in such a short period of time. No way was any given any time to have the dust settle.

b) My personal biggest heart break. Many in the industry were not about the sound but played like they were. Basically cars salesman doing audio. Very few real demos, and almost no demos that reached any sonic nirvana moments. The reviewers made this worse through embellishing. On my travels the serious listening clients had far better sounding systems than the press did, but they couldn't see this from where they were sitting so when they read they felt like they were missing something and would get caught up in the buying game. The clients were getting the short end of this stick and felt constantly like the new things the reviewers were saying would result in big steps and so they made equipment changing replace a method of listening that would work, if worked at. Systems never became a wholey viewed product but instead it was source amp speaker and the rest. System parts equality became very unbalanced and the focus left the sound and became one of those 3 main components.

c) is much like (b) in that the music was never what was being sold, and as the 90's rolled on this got worse, and after almost an after thought. I believe at least most of the clients I met were more equipment junkies than listeners. They would maybe listen for 20 minutes tops and be gone unless they were entertainly an audio club.

A note on the topic of Edgar: this is what made audio so much fun and the day that this went from listening to components was the sadest day in audio. My place has always been like a musicfest and when I use to visit audio clubs it was really cool, then that "thing" happened "male ego or something" and going to a place to listen either became a sales pitch or full of some kind of tention. For me it became very uncomfortable and I can clearly recall this taking place. It was like the equipment flaceplates removed the soul of the listener. You could no longer tweak and make it sound good, but instead have to tip toe around the new baby. A very strange feeling for me. It was we would do anything for the sound, then all of a sudden everyone had an excuse why their prize possession sounded bad. You want to hear something funny. Do you know I never heard about the WAF in the 80's. I remember rooms being all about music in the music rooms of the 70's and 80's. The WAF was created as an excuse to cover up bad sound. Guys were terrified their investments were not going to pay off sound wise and created every out phrase in the book as this was actually taking place. In the 70's and 80's it was about exploring the things that we loved and finally had a chance to do them. In the mid 90's in changed to all about the name on the front of your car, the school you went to (who cared about majors or if you used them) and the faceplate on your audio system. During this time it was more of a change in culture than it was persuing music excellence. More people were into taking pictures of their systems for the online audio galleries than they were listening to them.

"The issue is how can manufacturers off all these stripes and themes get together to say "we are cool, we give you music, you hear more with us!"

This is about all involved and not only the guys making the stuff. Everytime I walk into my record shop (Zia Records I love you) the cool factor is there. I feel like I'm in the world I use to be in when I did the shows before the fall. I'll tell you what, you hang out with Tom Miiller and Guy Lemcoe and Les Linton and your hanging out with some really cool music lovers. I had a blast with these guys and others that were into the hobby and telling the story of the hobby, but when the change happened the industry turned into an icecube. I swear the downfall is mostly do to power struggles and egos and designers scared to death they were not going to get noticed by the mags. This huge ego distroyed many of the very cool designers and never gave them a chance to shine. I would say that the really cool products I saw and heard never made their way to the ears of the listeners because they never got a chance. Some of them have but most never made it and should have. The 80's had a ton of weird designer types and things were about exploring sound. I had a great time, but always saw this certain few grouped together and you could feel how they wanted to cash in, and they did, excluding or even stepping on some very creative minds. I must give credit though, cause these mags before I would say 95 are who put High End Audio on the map. I don't think the day the music died was all about one party or the next but more an overall tone. One that really fell apart when the internet audio forums hit. These are 3 times as political as the mags ever were. Holy Smokes Exclamation  most of them should say "entrance to hell straight ahead". Laughing  holy smokies Laughing  Why these people are allowed in those forums I'll never know. I've even tried to buy my way in to spread good cheer and sound and they would have nother of it. If any place is currently keeping the industry in stall it is the audio forums.

sonic said

"I think it can be done. We just need to:

a. understand the push and pull factors of our survival

b. get a small active group on board, you don't need everyone

c. get advocates who are not vested in the industry beyond their love for music who can say there is more to music than MP3....look at what I have done."

You know, I'm not even sure I would dump on MP3. I think even MP3 and computer audio or any source has a place. I would take 90% of MP3 sound over 10% of HD. I don't think I'm all that crazy about bringing on yet even more new (I'm in no position to stop them) sources but what is, is and I'm here to make it sound the best it can be. I find there to be bigger problems than source, much bigger. Like for example the over built products are a far bigger problem than MP3. Speakers that are lead balloons and cable as thick as your leg. And rooms that kill every sound around. If these things were addressed and debunked we wouldn't be so fussy about the sources and would be surprised at how far we (even in the cheap seats) have come. It's not the new technology that is killing us, it's that we having grown in some of the areas that we should have by now.

I can't even grasp how audiophiles don't have the room as one of their number 1 concerns. This is completely backward, along with the mass thing. Do you realize where we would be as a hobby if the big box scam in high end audio would not have taken place? If back in the 80's when we got the technology to go smaller (like computers and flatscreens and everyone else did) high end audio would be light years ahead of where it is now. We created dinosours when we should have embraced the times and improvements. We can not go around the fact that we blew it and certainly if we think there will be any heavy equipment standing come 2020 we are fooling ourselves. I hate to break it to HEA but magnazox just kicked your butt and only a fool would be blind enough not to hear this.

So this brings another question up. Will high end audio even make it or why should they? If there are more maggies selling over any high end audio component (which easily there is) why do we even need high end? Or can we take the component out of high end audio and go back to making it a sound? My thought is the hobby should be about the tools at this stage and not the components, which to me looks like they are being replaced and BTW purchased by the mass music lover. This one is clearly a matter of ego and not music.

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3384
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:21 pm

"enjoy the music" August issue is out and you can see my memo response here http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0813/

This is so very important and I am told by Steven that he is already getting response from the readers. For those who find there way here "welcome to TuneLand". On these pages you are going to see what we "tunees" have been doing for many years. Also visit more on the www.tuneland.info archives.

I want you to know that you have not been over looked or ignored but there has been a listening movement going on all the time that was looking at audio at it's deepest form and we have found some answers to great sound far beyond what you have had delivered in the boxes that make up this hobby. I have literally turned this hobby up side down to understand what makes it sound the way it does and also to make it recover far more of the music that we all know it should and can.

I'm going to really dive into this so I hope that the industry will take a little time to walk through this with me. It will and is worth your while and is going to make your hobby more accurate and more enjoyable.

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
audiodog



Posts : 1
Join date : 2013-07-31

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:24 pm

What we need is straight talk Exclamation 

I've followed RoomTune from the beginning and was sad to see Michael get out of the business it seemed around the end of the 1990's. This thread explains why.

It takes more than one man and back in the day Michael moved the industry to a higher level of listening. Will it happen again? It should.

I looked at Enjoy The Music today and think we need far more of this. Put our minds back to what is important.

jim
Back to top Go down
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3384
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:16 am

And so my friends, I've been recieving emails on the response to Steven's Memo he put up from me and it's great to see the listeners speak and be able to speak without the heckling that comes with some of the clubs (forums) that have some how seemed to loose the joy of the music. This is refreshing and I've been told many times "I wish I could be a part of something positive".

It really wouldn't take all that much to have the industry get back on a positive foot again and I know how.

What listeners really want to see is a demo. Yes the audio shows do demos but we all know that 3 days is not enough for a system to settle into good sound, and we also know that the trade shows are more showing than telling. The last show I had a room at besides being a supplier was back in 2005. Well at least that was covered by the press to any extent. Here is a preview

"Greetings and welcome to the 2005 CES show coverage from the Vegas Towers,


No one puts out show coverage pictures like the people at Audiogon. I'd like to personally thank Steven Clay and Albert Porter for their excellent pictures and visit. What is it I always say? A picture is worth a thousand words and here are the ones that Audiogon has displaying on their site for you to view. After this article, please visit Audiogon.com and take a look at the 2005 CES coverage.

Audiogon is a true equal opportunity company that I have had great pleasure in getting to know over the past year. They not only do great show pictures, but they also help expose companies to the mainstream hobbyists. No matter what your view is on high end audio, you will find a piece of it on Audiogon.

Let?s get right into the show coverage at Vegas Towers:


# 1 - Classic 60's, Jolida 1301, Magnavox 456, PZCs, Bare Essence Type 1 speaker cable, Picasso Interconnects, custom Brazilian Pine Tuning Rack, Magic Wood Cable Grounds, Harmonic Springs, Performance Tuning Boards, and Magic Wood.





#2 - Music Series F-6's, MS SW-10's, Toshiba RPTV, Outlaw M200, Marantz Mod A/V 600, Magnavox 455, Bare Essence Type 3, Picasso Interconnects, Magic Wood and Brazilian Pine Platforms, "A La Carte" Rack featuring Magic Wood, Ash, North American Pine, Brazilian Pine, MTDs, Harmonic Springs, Harmonic feet, RoomTune, Sound Shutters, PZCs, Magic Wood Cable Grounds.





#3 - Music Series Chameleons, Michael Mod amps, Magnavox 456, Magic Wood Platforms, PZCs, Harmonic Springs, Bare Essence Cable Type 2, Picasso Interconnects, MTDs, Magic Wood Cable Grounds, Brazilian Pine Mini Tuning Board.





# 4 & 5 - Music Series M-5's, Basic Rack Speaker Stands, Parasound dual mono amp, Samsung DVD, Brazilian Pine Tuning Rack, Harmonic Springs, Brazilian Pine Tuning Boards, Bare Essence Type 2, Picasso Interconnects, RoomTune, Magic Wood Cable Grounds, Magic Wood.








# 6 - Back views of Chameleons, crossovers, and Floor Standing 48" PZC.





# 7 - View from entrance.





# 8 - Racks "A La Carte" -- Walnut, Ash, California Red Cedar, Brazilian Pine, Mahogany, and Cherry; Mini Clamps, Canopies, Magic Wood Platform.





# 9 - The S.A.M.





#10 - Music Series f-6, Sound Shutter.


_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3384
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:25 pm

In the last post kinda funny seeing the "big screen" and yet in a way representative of what has happened around us. If we fast forward from 2005 to today we would find many things changed over this time in our tech world including some products I have had the joy of tuning. Among these my reference source the Maggie Mod CD player which many tunees use. What you don't see in these pics should speak volumes and concern the mainstream High End Audio manufacturers.

When putting together these systems I wanted to demostrate going all the way in several types of room and system settings. The people who came to visit were blown away at how much better this part of their visit to the show was than what they heard at the other locations. Not one person though asked about the absence of high end. The people who came here talked about music and enjoyed the music. They didn't have to guess how should it sound if setup correctly and pretend if it would sound better or worse when they got it home. None of these systems gave the tiny stage that people were use to hearing at shows and their home. Why? What was different about these systems than what was being shown else where? I can answer that in one word "balance". These systems were made to be tuned in and not sit there looking pretty. These systems were using the entire audio pathway from electric to acoustics to make the sound and doing it in some what good proportions.

For example: the Jolida based system didn't need an over built unit to power up the 60's. There was tons of gain and when tuned even in this the smallest setting there was a bigger soundstage than any other system (besides the other rooms here) at the show. Again why? Because I stripped away the blockage to the signal. If I would have gone through the CES and grabbed the highest of high end there and put them in these rooms and tweaked them the best I could the sound would not have come close to this.

This throws you for a loop? It shouldn't you have been dealing with this for a long time it this industry and each time someone somewhere talks you into another chapter of the same ole thing. At some point we have to say stop and take a look at what is going on. Why am I spending so much time defending the products? Some of you have been professional collectors for 30 maybe 40 years now and instead of someone stepping in to give you good sound you have the industry trying to step you up. Step you up to what? Most of the time it's step you up into something you can't make sound right or "pretend" (the ego game) it is doing something it isn't. "If I own it, it must be sounding good" Really? You want to base this hobby on ownership and not performance. You need to remember who's speaking to you here.

I'm the same guy who during the early 90's did more traveling to trade shows and peoples homes and clubs and stores and reviewers and designers than anyone else. I've had so many reviewers hand me the keys to their systems that I can't count. Go look at your back issues of TAS and Stereophile and the others and you see how much I put into this. This isn't all bad and you shouldn't jump to conclusions, but you should realize that it's very posible that you haven't seen the designers best efforts yet.

Years ago I had pick up a product that was a revelation from one of the inovated designers. Stan Warren "Superphon" came out with the CD Max. A simply designed minimalistic looking thing that clearly looked tweaky but not so glamorous. With the smallest of tweaking this unit was transformed into a music monster. Stan was not alone. There were some briliant designers who presented products but they got over shadowed by the way over built very expensive products the boys were clamering over to review. In doing so the true music making toys started to get overlooked and people who could have been great listeners were turned into collectors of relics. I was tuning systems as fast as I could but it got to the point where products were not able to open up.

How many of you guys reading this have had me to your homes and the products you thought were destined to be in your room ended up in the closet? Your desires for turning these into great listening tools are noble but the music is waiting and you shouldn't have to settle for something costing you your life and still not producing. Come on guys time to be honest here. There are thousands of toys and the cycle has gone on forever and if you have a product that really does what you say send it to me and let me see how it stacks up against my reference. If it does I will certainly brag on it cause being honest it's a lot easier for me to be pushing High End Audio than Walmart.

In the beginning of this Steven's words jumped out of his publication and into my heart. Oh how I wish it was as simple as a small adjustment like a new source but you and I have lived with this hobby and know we are not getting the whole picture yet from High End.

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
enjoythemusic



Posts : 1
Join date : 2013-08-01
Location : Worldwide

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:02 pm

A most humble thanks Michael and Jim. Seems to be much interest in this and have been fielding quite a bit of e-mail! Of course in the end what REALLY matters is that we all...

Enjoy the Music,

Steven R. Rochlin
Back to top Go down
http://www.EnjoyTheMusic.com
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3384
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:04 pm

Welcome to TuneLand Steven Exclamation 

If folks wonder where the rest of the listeners are, there here and on www.tuneland.info . Info was my first forum and got a little hard for me to handle as an admin but I'm slowly learning the behind the scenes of forums and how phpbb works. TuneLand represents maybe 2 or 3 percent of the tunees but I'm thankful to these guys for being willing to share their tuning adventures with the world.

Slowly the tunees are coming out of the wood work and as more people feel comfortable with this part of the hobby I'm sure this will be a hopping place.

A couple thousand audiophiles (that I know of) have made the jump from what is considered the High End norm and have converted their systems or replaced them to ones that give more. This is no doubt a shock for visitors of course but as they start to apply the tune they are turned on to a side of the hobby they didn't know existed. This is huge! And the timing of the industry change is at our back door.

Imagine with our designers what could happen (and will) when they take this industry the new light weight way. We have found only a very small percentage of equipment that is so fixed that it won't get out of it's shell. The rest of the product when they shed their weight and materials become bad boys and all my guys and gals are stunned that this hasn't yet become the "New High End Audio".

My thanks to you for being the first of the press to take a look at this on tuneland itself. I can understand that it looks like going backward for many of the guys but with so many people now doing the tune and us (TuneLand) being willing to help we can begin the process on a bigger scale. We don't ask anyone to jump on board without trying these methods on their own. There's no smoke and mirrors here, simply uncovering the sound that has always been there and beginning the designs of the future.

RoomTune was a shock to folks as it told them that sound travels differently then they were taught before. Believing or not proof was in the pudding. Then came the Tuning Racks, Tunable Speakers and then "The Tunable Room", the ultimate expression of this hobby. A room built like a musical instrument to make sound rather than dampen it.

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com


Last edited by Michael Green on Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3384
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:08 pm

Our friends at "enjoy the music", take a peek at this.



MGA designs and builds our own rooms. I've been building my own reference rooms for over 25 years and contracting the designs with some of the worlds foremost studios, audio salons and private clients. I do both core designing that are finished out later and the Tunable Room that is adjustable every 16" on center. My favorite sounding rooms are the ones done with Nevada cured wood and hand voiced by us. Check with us on my curing and voicing schedule so that we can fit you in. We are always curing wood but don't keep a large supply.






The largest contributer to the sound of our music systems is our room, and the most advanced listening rooms in the world are MGA Tunable rooms.


The Tunable Room was the first room designed like a music instrument specifically to reproduce music. While doing work for Steinway, Conn, King, Martin and other prestigious musical instrument companies Michael refined a room that could reproduce all the fundamentals and harmonics of every note/frequency/sound from 12hz -33khz.


It's about the wood! The technology in mechanical transfer is what makes the tunable room work but it still comes down the the hand voiced wood that makes the magic happen.





_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
Drewster
Admin
avatar

Posts : 111
Join date : 2009-09-17
Location : Ecuador

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:53 pm

Steven's advocating a concerted marketing approach in his article I think is a good idea. Certainly it would be difficult to achieve as the industry is far from united in philosophy and business goals, and the mostly small companies are so competitive with each other it would be difficult to get a substantial group aligned. Still, what Steven suggests is needed.

However, it would be fruitless to try to replicate the 70s-80s-early 90s era in current times. Perhaps a truly new model is needed. Back in the early days of high end, it was easy to distinguish good sound from bad. Obvious even. You could hear it and feel it.

Nowadays, with Dolby digital in movies, CDs (perfect sound forever) and other technologies, people think they're getting good sound, or at least sound that is good enough. So the question the industry should be asking is why should the average joe or jane spend the time, attention and money for better sound (better than what?)?

The industry has moved to marketing jewelry and status, and average people, consciously or unconsciously, recognize it for what it is.

That needs to be addressed before any real change in how the high end is viewed, so people will have an open mind and ear to the possibility of better sound, can occur.


jocolor jocolor 

_________________
Drewster
Andrew Staub
Techno-Zone Administrator
Back to top Go down
Sonic.beaver



Posts : 2104
Join date : 2009-09-18

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:43 am

There is also another shift that needs to be taken into account.

It might be many shifts at once. The mindset and expectation of musick listening.
It is the shift in how music is stored and replayed. We used to have vinyl records and tape as our carrier medium and there was distinct and dedicate equipment and spaces to play music in. Now there is a shift in domestic space utilization and prioritization.

Today, living spaces are for all sorts of activities and most will not want or see the need for dedicated spaces.

There is a shift to interchangeable equipment -- play your CDs on the computer you take to work, music and video can be streamed/played thru gaming consoles. And yes, streaming. While there are fairly strong counter currents, software is seen as something that is virtual/invisible, carrier medium (tape/records/CDs/SACDs) are restrictions rather than prized objects. So the music is seen as something you store on the hard disk or the SSD.

There is also a shift to multi-tasking and social networking of which music is one part.

I set up a concert on my listening evenings. The day's work is done, the phone is set to silent, ipad not in the room, lighting set to bright end/dark end. Appropriate beverages for the occasion and the playlist starts.

Younger people who may be good listeners with taste may find my practice strange. They have music while tweeting, doing some work, whatsapping, planning the next day's activities all at the same time.

I might propose that this is not a way of living that is hostile to good music but it might be lethal to the audiophile approach we see today. The good news is people still want music and in the future they will get it in some form. The question is what part will today's audiophile manufacturers, products and storage medium have in this future.

What might the road ahead portend? It is certain the audio industry cannot call music lovers back to an earlier golden age because that is a nostalgia that the next generation listeners cannot relate to. It will have to take into its product framework how people live and play music.

The future may lie in small, lightweight very good equipment with the music delivered by headphones -- the entire chain from storage to earpieces being tuneable by Michael's methods. It could be the creation of virtual spaces that exist within multi-purpose rooms.

Of course, being a collector of analog, tube and such stuff with a dedicated room leaves me disturbed by such a future. But getting real, I look at how homes are designed in the city where I live, and look at similar urban centres around here -- apartment living spaces just don't allow any dedicated space, so that restricts a whole age band of listeners, arguably the most important age band who will adopt our hobby and grow with it.

Those who have houses are better off but how many will set aside and build spaces if they did not see the need before.

Then there is a plug and play mentality. Everything must fit and work from power up. We expect this of our computers and whatever we buy. I recently bought shelves from Ikea and the panels and the dowels fitted perfectly (see my thread on this). Will the need to tune and almost create something with our own hands while trusting our ears be outside the time and emotional compass of the next-gen listeners?

What do you all think?

Sonic

Back to top Go down
Drewster
Admin
avatar

Posts : 111
Join date : 2009-09-17
Location : Ecuador

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:23 pm

Well put, Sonic. Music is not listened to discretely, as a goal in itself, as much today as it was in the past. It's integrated into other activities. Special devices are no longer needed to listen to music. It's accessible in so many more ways than were even conceived of in the 90's (cell phones, ipods, youtube, pandora, spotify, iTunes store, band web sites, Napster (though no longer), internet file sharing, etc). Young people are used to immediate accessibility, but due to the sources they use (think iTunes, mp3, youtube) and playback devices (computer/computer speakers, ipods, phones) they don't know what quality sound is, and they don't know what's possible.

To attract them to quality sound reproduction, equipment has to be made available for an attractive cost, and be easy to begin using, and not cumbersome.

Entry level for a complete system that offers significantly good sound should be around $500. Not the $2000-$3000 that the industry considers bare-minimum entry level.

As Michael has said, the technology to get good sound inexpensively is definitely out there right now. And when done well can sound better than the overbuilt expensive gear now available.


jocolor jocolor

_________________
Drewster
Andrew Staub
Techno-Zone Administrator
Back to top Go down
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3384
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:52 pm

Hi Sonic

My numbers may be way off so this response needs to be treated with measure. A couple of things I think are clear. Audio in the future will be about computers. Computers are getting smaller and far more light weight. Secondly, the audiophile world is at it's highest numbers (may be wrong) about 250,000 people world wide. That number right now is probably a lot lower than this.

If the audiophile world thinks that another CD format is going to change the mind of the average music lover they might be surprised. If anything the music community is going to want something small that stores tons. Thinking that we are going to turn them toward vinyl and tubes is going to continue to decrease. There may be fads but never a resergence. Lps and tubes are cute at best let us be real. Again my numbers, but I do believe there were more CD's bought than the entire vinyl history within a few years of them coming out, so the Redbook world will be here for at least the next ten years or so. That's good enough for me as I can get focused on the amount of info on these and feel pretty asurred that most of my clients are going to be using them. During that time we will see the future unfold and in that future I would be very surprised if the "house" will change all that much. Making changes this big takes a ton of money and work and this will not happen over night. Again I feel pretty secure.

Remember the "home theatre" ? Remember how this room was going to in a couple of years replace the listening room? 25 years later and there are probably more listening rooms than there were before the theatre. Why? Because the home theatre movement got people thinking about what to do with their rooms instead of having idol spaces people are more into using the spaces they have. If anything people are going to move toward rooms (maybe smaller rooms) that are going to have an entertainment value attached to them. What that entertainment is, is up to the way music, movies, games, skype, computer push themselves. But I don't think our media rooms are going anywhere. And if their not going anywhere the chances of the listening room being around is pretty stable cause dad's room is always going to be a part of the plan and because the rooms are starting to change function dad's room being converted into what he wants is more exceptable than in the past.

The space part of this is not in danger cause the mindset of "how to do our house" has changed. Even if the living room did become something else the spare bedroom is perfect for listening.

My thought is this. People are thinking about home entertainment more than they ever have and the portable world is only going to make this bigger and more exposed. People are not going from home audio to pads and pods, pads and pods are making home audio more visable. We in this insdustry shouldn't be worried about something else taking away from our numbers. We are the ones who have decreased our numbers by not producing something that attracts people to us. Bose, Sonos and others are doing just fine and growing. In fact Sonos is exploding.

Here's a thought and I've done this at TuneVilla. Instead of the audiophile world buying things and setting them up incorrectly or using products that can't produce we start making rooms that fit the function. For example: do you guys know how many rooms I walk into and the first thing that comes into my mind is "why is this guy using floorstanding speakers".

guys have such an ego Laughing 

If someone is going to sit there on a dampened sofa with furniture all over the place they should not have floorstanding speakers in the room at all. What they should have is wall mounted speakers. Take a moment and look through audiophile systems on google images and tell me these speakers are working properly? Their not. The guy is sitting there listening to a speaker firing into furniture. This is the dumbest thing on the planet and makes me want to scream.

The very biggest problem we have is the listeners have never been taught how to listen. their listening to systems based on the golden calf and not even looking to see if the type of system is best for their environment.

My wall mounted setups sounded every bit as good as my floorstanding setups!

This industry could do itself a big favor if it would take the time to help people get good sound first and foremost. If they did this our industry would turn on a dime. Every month all I see is equipment, speakers, source and this just keeps going in this circle till no one ever gets real about sound. If we want the bigger real world to find us there is one way to get there. Stop thinking they want our golden calves. They don't, they want great sound. The equipment game is such a small part of the listening industry but the High End Audio world has built it into the biggest part and no one out in the real world cares. these people are not going to walk in and say "what was I missing" in enough numbers to make a difference and at the same time Bose and Sonos and their copycats are making a killing and think, get a load of this, the people out there think these companies sound "high end".

As I said in my response, we are disconnected, and our minds are stuck into thinking people want one thing when they are clearly saying something else. I'll save this for my next post.

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3384
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry   Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:26 pm

Hi Drewster

You said a mouthful!

Do you know that in "92" I had a reviewer come into my show room at the CES and said "this is the best sounding room ever at a show", but don't expect much mention. I had reviewers hanging out all show long in my rooms once I stopped doing them with the High End guys. J Gordon and Guy, and Les and many others use to make the room a hang, but the reviewers were not there on a mission of great sound. They were there on a mission of new toys, and most of those new toys were way out of consideration of the average listener.

"price means better" was the biggest boo boo they could have made.

Years later I tried to do a thing at "The Show" (love what Richard has done BTW) called "Tweak Alley". We pushed as hard as we could but no one wanted to have a part of the Vegas show showing people how to tweak. I was on that phone calling favors from anyone I knew and it was not going to happen. This is what I mean when I say disconnect from the music industry. The playback part of this industry on a High End Audio level is almost invisable. Why? Cause we started to believe and promote that great sound could not be produced at a level of exceptance to the not only average house hold incomes but way above. What's wrong with us? I've been producing great sound for a low cost all along and it's not even because it's less money, it's because it sounds better.

Look at the huge gap High End Audio has built between itself and what we call lower end. You can march an army through this hole. This is the article that should be in print and I'm the one to tell this story cause I've tested this price and sound difference thoroughly. Who was that pro magazine who said RoomTune was 5 times less expensive and 5 times more effective than the nearest competitor? This is what the industry needs and it should and will hit the minds of everyone that the change has begun, and watch this thing start to grow again.

Are you looking Steven? Why don't we review a low priced High End Audio setup. You would be the right guy to get this rolling. And afterward we set this system up at T.H.E. SHOW for all to hear and see. If folks saw this system as being an equal and then start to make this hobby reasonable again this would alone start to pull in fresh blood.

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
 
Steven Rochlin's memo to the industry
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next
 Similar topics
-
» Steven Wilson - Grace For Drowning updates and free MP3!
» Steven Baldwin
» DVD - Steven Patrick (former HOLY SOLDIER) Bang la Desh
» Steven Patrick Red Reign
» Memo to Pickled Tink

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Michael Green Audio Forum :: Audio Chat :: General Audio Chat, staying in tune-
Jump to: