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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:00 am

I want to respond to the next set of questions which are repeated often by May, but in the way that those threads go I don't think we really get down to things as we do here.

Saying this though I think some of these are legitimate questions and I understand the point of view where she is coming from.

The questions she is asking is in general, these things do change the sound but how and why? For May this may not be a natural happening, but from my point of view I see these changes as a part of physics that makes perfect sense to me. I don't see the mystery of our body sensor systems reactions to everything that we do or are exposed to.

For me, I look at people and how we are all extremely different from each other yet have the same types of sensor systems. We see, and it affects our taste and hearing. We taste and it affects our smell, hearing and seeing. That's the way our sensor systems work, and we all have our own uniquely tailor set of programs.

I think, and I could be wrong, but it almost sounds like May is wanting to point to something specific as making a specific change and for some reason doesn't completely see how it ties in with tuning. She's somehow trying to tie products to specifics when those specifics don't change what "we" do.

May keeps breaking things down to products and we keep saying why have the tweak applied if we can get the same sound through tuning it in. If the dots or creams or shakers were something that we couldn't do we would use them just like we do with the choicing we make with our voicing and tuning devices. Also if there is a particular flavor that someone doesn't have and they have it to give we have no problem if someone uses it or any type of material or setting of lights or what have you.

If someone wants to sit up-side-down while listening to make their senses respond a certain way to the music, we would have no problem with that at all and it doesn't change what we do.

An area where we do have a problem is if someone applies something and there's no way to go back and fix it if the sound gets worse, and that's an area that needs constant attention and the reason why the music is always playing here.

What I don't think May or Geoff get is just how variable a tunable system really is, and I think if either one of them sat in a tunable room and hear the changes that could be made they would freak, just as everyone does who steps in one.

Here's the other part that I probably failed to make clear somehow. Lets say someone puts on a recording and wants to make a change. This is where we come in. We provide a way to make that change. If we run into a sound as I said that throws us or the listener for a loop, we go on the search to figure it out and provide it. It's what we do.

May says monitoring systems can't measure the affects of color change, and on that issue I disagree. these monitoring systems that I and harold are looking at can tell you when you are happy or sad so I'm sure they tell if you are responding well to any particular color. This is an area that I have invited her to check out but that's not really something between me and her.

Let me break down a simple answer though to May that might help.

Your listening to a piece of music and shut your eyes. At that moment your brain is sent a signal to put more response to your other senses. It's the brain and bodies way to keep you in balance. With your hearing being only one level up from feeling on the low end of the cycle scale it responds to all the sensors from those frequencies up. Sight being much higher is a relative of hearing as all the senses are closely tied together and play off of each other in real time. Their all detectives for each other. I think when people try to make listening and audio a fixed thing they loose their intuitive natures some what. They're over thinking something that isn't all that hard. Put on the color red, and if you don't like the sound tune the signal till you like it or turn off the light. It's not that tough but people get too stuck on trying to make things into products instead of making methods. I make products cause they fit the method, I don't make something that makes a change and try to figure out why. I figure out how and if it works with the method of variable tuning. Making something that changes the sound is the simplist thing on the planet. Making something that brings the music to life and able to allow you to explore any part of the recording, now that's special.

Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:34 pm

I found this to be an interesting topic on the stereophile forum and wanted to share it on Tuneland to see if there are any comments to be added.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/funai-dp100-fx4

Top is the NAD516Bee, bottom the MDV2300


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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:22 am

I wanted to add my two cents to what I have been reading on Stereophile forum. Mr. Green you have the patience of Job. They owe an apology for letting you be flamed in the hobby you were part of building. Few people in this industry have your background and expertise and as far as I am concerned Stereophile has given themselves a black eye. Where's the moderators Question If Stereophile thinks they are doing their readers any favors by allowing audio frauds to post on the site I have no idea what they're thinking. Suspect
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PostSubject: A Matter of Taste Indeed   Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:21 pm

All:

I would like to propose a new reference CD player here on Tuneland with a carefully laid out dialogue proving the NAD 516BEE as a worthy upgrade to the Magnavox 2300. I myself intend on tuning the cd player if I decide Redbook is worth keeping vs. high-res FLAC.

I prefer my NAD 516BEE over any other entry level or budget player for several reasons. Here are just a few that come to mind looking at the pictures Michael provided as well as my knowledge learned from careful research before settling on this unit. My budget was $1500. I paid $225 for a "refurbished" unit which comes with the manufacturer's warranty and free shipping.

Here are the main advantages I can literally and figuratively see of the NAD over the Magnavox 2300 and its variants:

1. Dedicated audio circuity to maximize performance; from NAD's website:  
NAD wrote:
The C 516BEE gets the full measure of NAD engineering experience with enhanced audio circuitry to maximize performance, resulting in better stereo imaging, tighter bass, and clean, accurate, distortion-free sound. The painstakingly engineered circuit layout extracts the best possible performance from audiophile-grade component parts for minimal noise and maximum detail retrieval. This focused effort results in a vivid, musically rewarding experience.
2. No unused DVD components getting in the way of audio circuitry; as they share the same power supply in the Magnavox, this can't be a good thing.
3. Two separate power supplies can be a good thing! one for the analogue, the other for the digital. Results in a cleaner signal.
4. An improved, beefier transport. NAD themselves stated the transport was improved vs. their previous model, the 515.
5. NAD fine-tuned the analogue stage for lower distortion.
6. Again from NAD's website regarding isolating the Digital from the Analogue circuits:
NAD wrote:
The analogue output has been fine-tuned for even better audio performance, while digital outputs are buffered and isolated to ensure perfect matching and minimal 'jitter'

Finally, endorsements from the likes of Stereophile journalists/reviewers certainly don't hurt:
Stephen Mejias wrote:
I do know, however, that the NAD wasn't out of place when matched with more expensive equipment. Partnered with the Croft Phono Integrated ($1895), the C 516BEE contributed to some of the best sound I've heard at home.

So here we have a seasoned reviewer claiming the NAD 516BEE as some of the *BEST* sound he as *EVER* heard at home.

But rest assured, my only goal here is to illuminate that at the stock level, I have shown the NAD 516 is superior in many ways to the Magnavox 2300.

If we applied Tuning Blocks, Canopies, and any and all of Michael's excellent methods to the NAD unit, maybe everyone here would be surprised in a pleasant way; for that is really and truly my goal.

I challenge readers here to open your minds to a new CD Player, nothing more, and with very valid logic as well as facts.

The only merit I can observe of the Magnavox at the stock level over the NAD is a simpler circuit design...sometimes less is more. But in this case, and from the quotes from Stereophile reviewers and NAD themselves, I think the added complexity of the NAD probably contributes to a superior stock sound.

Perhaps, as Michael said, it does just come down to a matter of taste... I truly do get the whole point of modifying a true budget unit into something sonically very good... but I wanted to offer this community a differing, new view in as neutral a way as possible. I hope some readers find my analysis useful.

Respectfully,

Ronald R. Stesiak, PhD


Last edited by rrstesiak on Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:04 pm

Coming down to a matter of taste I'm not sure you get what Mr. Green does yet Ron. Michael looks for more vibrations to "tune" and not less. We've seen him go through many players and he seems to start at the top and work his way down to the ones that give him the best tonal characters.

I've had the NAD 516BEE in my system and thought it sounded tilted up with a smaller stage than the MDV2300 and even a harsh or grainy texture. I would be surprised if Michael went that direction in sound. I'm not sure why we would want to replace a reference that allows us to experience big stages with warm full body sound going back to that digital fatiguing sound that so many systems suffer from and then blame CD's. I could not see myself going back to the sound it took us so long to get away from.

Have you tuned both the NAD and the Magnavox players yet?

Suggesting a reference change based on what is what I'm asking?
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:36 am


Greetings Dr Stesiak

I wonder if you had a conversation or challenged Sonic with your thoughts or questions. If you did Sonic would have honestly discussed thoughts and experiences which are not anywhere like buying "the cheapest possible components, like old or new Sherwood receivers and $29 DVD/CD players"...you have probably seen my list of gear and what I posted on my thread how I have stayed with my Magneplanars, tube equipment and analog gear (possibly stubbornly to Michael and other Tunees).

How too given constraints of my living conditions Sonic will not be able to go the low platform route yet with what I got is a system that scares other Magneplanar owners. I don't mind the constraints Sonic has to work under.

While Sonic has benefitted from Michael's products I also use acoustic foam in my room, not to mention a very conventional speaker placement (by audiophile standards) which is very different from what Tunees are doing with ultra near field. You may not have had the time to see how wrestled with various system issues and how Sonic reached the conclusions that I eventually did.

"Yes, a better piece of equipment WILL sound better when tuned" thinks Sonic.

Though "Higher Price" is not equal to "Better" is something we should agree on?

Sonic thinks my tube gear is fine and sounds great when tuned in my main system. In my other dwelling systems my Rogers LS3/5A are remarkable even when driven by an unmodified Rotel integrated and when given a good 60W from a tube push-pull amp the sound glows.

So I possibly represent someone who uses the Tune to good effect but is not what you might describe as the "Standard Model Tunee". Don't recall you asking Sonic or pointing out anything to me, and I don't mind if you did.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Reply to Sonic   Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:50 am

Sonic:

Thank you first for your reply.

I agree a lot of tube equipment sounds nothing short of amazing and if I had the budget, I would explore tube options. Yes, I also agree that better does not always mean more expensive.

However, I am suggesting a very inexpensive ($225 USD) cd player made solely for the purpose of AUDIO, vs. a DVD player.

I feel very badly if I have offended you or anyone else with my strongly worded initial response.

Kindest Regards,

Ron


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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:30 am


Greetings Ron

Sonic hears of the exploits of those who have achieved great results with Magnavox and Sherwood gear. On one hand if the cost is low and the switching effort is low, I am willing to give it a try. See what I wrote to Heind001 this evening. OTOH it will take a lot of convincing for me to turn my back on the tube gear and Magneplanars I have enjoyed so much and even more since I resolved many of my room's problems with Michael's guidance.

Mind you, if he didn't guide me in his fashion Sonic would have never overcome the worst problems of my room like I recounted in my war with the BOO! which was resolved with a combination of Michael's products, his advice, acoustic foam Exclamation and one or two other tweaks I have applied.

"But I would not be convicted
By a jury of my peers,
Still crazy after all these years"
(Paul Simon)

Sonic
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PostSubject: Magneplanars   Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:59 am

Sonic:

Are you being advised to replace your Magneplanar speakers? IF so, what speaker is being suggested as a replacement, and what model of Magneplanar do you own?

I'll just await your reply before I comment.

Respectfully,

Ron
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PostSubject: Magnavox & Sherwood   Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:24 pm

All:

It seems most listeners who have chosen to modify "Magnavox/Sherwood" equipment seem to be enjoying good results. I can't be critical of positive results!

I will say I subscribe to Michael's general mindset and carried out most of his recommended mods on my Creek; inlcuding internal ones as well as adding blocks underneath.

I did notice significant, positive improvements to my Creek AFTER the mods and the blocks were added.

Respectfully,

Ron


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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:39 pm

WOW Ron, that was not quite the posting expected from a guy who was quoting the "sermon on the mount" earlier, but I'm working on a few projects today and will try to be back up tonight.

Hopefully you will have thought through your comments a little more.

Have a good day and see you soon.

Cool

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:00 pm

This thread is under review for flaming. We may need to edit some of the content.

let's keep these topics peaceful, and positive

thank you

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:04 am

Hi Ron

Looks like we have a little mess here (rare for TuneLand). I think all would agree if you decide to stay you might want to look a little deeper into the success of the tune and be more openminded yourself first before rants. From what I have seen, some of the most well thought of systems professional and home have had Mr. Green's touch. I would hardly call EMI Records as being poisoned. Your comments I think should be editted or deleted, but that's up to you and the Mod, Harold or Michael himself.

I've always viewed TuneLand as more of a celebration of the music experience. It's a place that allows all of us to go further than frankly any of us would have done on our own. Mr. Green giving of his time should be rewarded not condemned. All this anger over a NAD cd player doesn't make any sense to me. Further, I believe Michael is being gentle with you where many would say don't let the door hit you on the way out. If your coming here as a representative of the Stereophile forum I wouldn't see that forum as being a very positive place at all. Speaking for myself I feel like shaking off your posts taking a nice shower and getting back to the music. I recommend you consider reading through your posts again and starting over with that same open mind you ask of others. Mr. Green is the opposite of the blind leading the blind. He also happens to be one of the most positive people in the music business. So positive that I think it makes the close minded angry.

Jim

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:21 am

Hi Members

I want to give some type of ruling on the recent posts that have been reported as flaming TuneLand and myself. First let me say that this is something that doesn't sit well with me as TuneLand was specifically designed to talk about tuning and having a positive place to share in the fun of tuning. This is something that is in our rules of posting and has been apart of my personal belief for many years.

On that personal note, I have spent many nights going over the tone I set through the years and sometimes even now will go back after re-thinking in my own heart and will do edits. It's an easy line to draw for those of us who have been involved in tuning a long time. For us the difference between the starting gate and the finish line puts tuning high above the average system or method. It's clear, to the point and has a huge success rate.

The question for me is not about myself or the seasoned listeners using the tune or seasoned listeners period. The question for me and Harold is about the relationships developed on TuneLand and the desire of puting music and thoughtfulness first. As with any thoughtful family being in a place of diversity and harmony is a must, and even when there is a disagreement there are certain things that we must not have. One of them is a lack of respect for the forum rules. If someone doesn't want to follow the guidelines we as listeners have set they may wish to find another place of fellowship.

In this case, I have found that the flame according to the people emailing me from both Stereophile members and TuneLand alike does indeed brake forum rules, but I feel these were broken out of a lack of understanding what we do here and what I and Harold do and are commited to as well as you who have expressed your concern. On this I'm going to go by the rules.

The comments that were made against the Tunees, TuneLand and Myself need to be edited or deleted. They are not something that is helpful for the industry, hobby, listeners and belittle our efforts as designing. They were statements made out of anger and unreasonable assumptions.

As such we will give 12 hrs to rrstesiak to do any editing he feels is a flame toward TuneLand and myself. At the end of this time I will re-review the posts and go by the forum rules and the advice you the members have given me.

Hopefully this is a wrong that can be righted, and the forum is able to keep giving with the same passion for the love of music that it has always done. I leave the choice up to you the members and Ron to decide and of course the forum rules themselves.

In any case we wish Ron would find TuneLand as a place to call home, and understand that almost all of us here have gone through certain emotions with our systems as we have found certain truths that seem out of the norm to the audiophile way of thinking. Taking the time to read and explore is always the answer to the matters of listening to music, and as our expressions may be ok on other forums we hold ourselves to a certain standard as we explore our sound.

thanks and I look forward to the outcome

now lets get back to listening shall we Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:05 pm

rrstesiak has been banned from TuneLand for breaking forum rules.

Thank you members, both here and Stereophile for your emails and PM's on the issue.


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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:20 pm

This was a wise move TuneLand. I don't think Ron had any idea what is done here. I was excited for him till his tone kicked in. Maybe he has a hard time relating to people outside of a "spirited debate" and when he got here he felt it was his job to get the debates fired up is all I can guess. He didn't take the time to read and ask questions about the systems and the forums general direction. It's an opportunity missed for him. Kool-aid that one still makes me chuckle. We search a very long time to find a place like this because of how open it is. Those who want to tune at what ever level and those who are where they want to be tuning or not have fun sharing in the music. Does it get more open? I wish him well and hope he finds what he is looking for in the way of a forum family.
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:07 pm

Hi TuneLand Members

I'm lifting the banned and ask that we all do a reboot and try this again.

Hey Ron, welcome to TuneLand, how about sometime we check out that NAD and see how far that baby can go. Who knows maybe it will become one of our recommended references. Very Happy

so much easier Cool

now lets get the music started bounce

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:10 pm

Most excellent welcome to TuneLand Ron Exclamation
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:33 am


Greetings Ron!

Sonic has Magneplanar 1.5QRs as my primary loudspeakers. They can sound beautiful and there is adequate bass. The problem is my room -- hard surfaces all round. Hence the long struggle which Sonic is winning with my mixed bag of equipment which demonstrates the versatility of the Tune.

Along the way I learnt a lot.

As you tune (I would like to learn of your experience with the NAD CDP) and we dialogue, may Sonic invite you to the section of this site titled Audio Around the World and read of my experiences in "Tuning My Musical Journey". This is Sonic's more recent work and there is my earlier threads "Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics" and "Restoration Road."

Its a no-holds barred account of Sonic's tuning over the years. Sonic is no sensei/sifu -- those accolades are rightfully Michael's and in my opinion after him there is Hiend001. Tjbhuler has some interesting stuff out of Malaysia too.

Have a look and if you got observations or questions, Sonic would welcome them.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Thank you to Sonic   Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:59 am

Sonic:

I took the liberty of reading your many posts on your own system last night.

I respect the amount of thought, passion, and testing and re-testing you've put into your system, and thoroughly enjoyed reading how you approach and overcome problems.

Respectfully,

Ron
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PostSubject: Apology   Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:04 am

All:

Though I learned it the "hard way", I now truly see how this forum is conducted and run.

Further, I spent most of last night pouring through the many systems and progressions with sound and music many many members have made and I am deeply impressed. This is an entirely new slant on the approach to excellent sound, and I look forward integrating parts of it into my own system.

I guess each forum has a different approach and rules of interaction.. I can truly say I now understand at least how best to interact on this forum and now feel like I was a bull in a china shop and apologize for the way I conducted myself; and can assure fellow members that style of debate and discussion will no longer happen here.

I am perfectly capable of fitting in, and just documenting my own journey when i perform minor and major variable as well as fixed tuning to my system.

In particular, I will first spend a lot of time tweaking and tuning my NAD 516; as it seems pretty basic on the inside with good components to start with.

Respectfully,

Ron
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:52 am


Hello Ron

You are most welcome to read Sonic's journey which is convoluted and frustrating at times. But I had a richer musical appreciation for all this. I am interested what you will find with the NAD C516BEE. That is a CD-only player with none of the circuitry for video and all the stuff not needed is an appealing idea. It is not heavy and can be lightened quite easily. Double transformers is a Good Thing. Sonic is a power supply robustness and cleanness fan. Get the power supply wrong, interfered or choked then nothing after that point will ever be right. The Magnavox for what it is worth, which so many on the Tune praise so highly, may be for me down the road or it may not. It is not available for the voltage and line frequency in this town, though Hiend001-san assures me this is not a problem.

Right now spinning LPs and letting the evening slip away with musick.

Join the conversation, friend Very Happy

Sonic
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PostSubject: power supply fan   Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:19 pm

Sonic:

I too am a HUGE power supply fan!

May I direct you to my posts of my latest purchase: the Vincent PHO-8 Phono Stage on my system page?

As for the NAD, again, totally agree in dual power supply approach.

As for the Magnavox, I have finally come to an understanding of the logic behind it and many people's success with it. I also want to very gently mention it may not be a "one size fits all" for everyone, and maybe the NAD is available where you are?

Either way, my goal is to no longer influence people AWAY from anything they are having positive experiences with; but to also share any positive experiences I am having with my particular gear.

I think we have a lot in common in how we approach problems and it is a pleasure making your acquaintance.

Respectfully,

Ron
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:31 pm

Smile

I'm pleased to see this, and might be a good time to remind folks as they visit that when I look at systems or components it's from a particular point of view and has nothing to do with, any kind of put downs toward any component. I don't view the hobby like that. That would throw off the methods of what I do for me and get in the way of my goals.

As you will see with the NAD c516BEE when she is in my care I will treat her like a favorite child of mine.

The only way I can learn and share is to jump into a project without bias or at least limited for purpose. I will indeed go off of what I have learned obviously but this is only so I can identify what direction I went and how to get back if I need to. Sometimes I will take different approaches with a component and this depends on getting familar with certain builds. But most of the time it's about some basics and then getting down to a components best state of performance, and moving forward with the designing.

love seeing a happy TuneLand Very Happy


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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:06 am

latest on the Stereophile forum

The Stereophile forum has flat-lined over the last several weeks Exclamation

It's easy to see why. Without music, the Stereophile forum view of the hobby holds about as much interest as a blank sheet of paper. The forums most noted writer has nothing more than a portable cassette player and spouts off meaningless un-true statements about a hobby he has limited experience in. Boggles the brain that's the best they can do. Stereophile really?

After spending time there exposing the lack luster babbling of the few, and watching a few more buy into the "lack", it's pretty easy to see that the listening hobbyist wants nothing to do with the dead and dying of a hobby that has put false God's above the actual art of listening. Stereophile has failed in raising the bar for audio forums. Don't get me wrong, my appreciation for Stereophile Magazine is still intact, but there could be so much more if their forum was full of listeners.

It feels like the same lack, that took place back in the mid "90's" when the great void of listening took place at the audio shows. Fact is, the CES did more for this part of the hobby than perhaps any other part. You had the shows, the stores, the rags and the listeners running on all 8. The 70's, 80's and 90's gave us the Grand Prix of Audio racing because it was based on "listening" and "accountability". Listeners and their fascination for the exotic & extreme provided three camps, the collector, home audio engineer and the doer.

I'm glad that TuneLand actually puts "audio" on the track and races. I guess walking around the speedsters and studying all they hope to do is cool too, as well the tall tales back at the race bar, but the enthusiasm only meets truth when those engines roar around the track, and the performance is realized beyond the talk. All the pink slip posturing in the world comes to an end when the music is turned on. Whether a magazine, a forum, a show or private listening system, the art of doing and the practice of the hobby is what wins this race.

I do hope the audio forums raise their bar, especially the magazines that host their own forums. Maybe we need a few more listeners taking up the walk and not so much the talk. Maybe the hobby has enough.....maybe-s.

maybe this hobby just needs a good tuning Exclamation

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