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tmsorosk



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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Mon May 05, 2014 8:02 am

Agreed Michael

It's often after people leave and I forget about listening to the audio system and system changes, relax and settle in to hear the music I enjoy, that the real differences show themselves.
I should add, when A/B testing cables or such they do take time to settle in and sound there best but when you use cable's that your familiar with as a comparison it's easier to get a fix on the sonic signature of the cable in question. Although it's only the first step.

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Mon May 05, 2014 6:53 pm

Hi Tim

Yeah, I'm all for that. I'm kind of a "nice to meet you now let me listen" type of guy. I feel a lot more comfortable around a system than I do around people.

It's interesting that when we become more experienced listeners, how we can (some of the time) hear something in part and can sense where it is going to end up. Doesn't always work that way but we can hear it moving in a direction. But then, like you say, it's that real listening where we start to see what's really going on.

Do you have the meetings at your place?

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Tue May 06, 2014 10:07 pm

The old boys club meets at a few different places and mine is one of the favorites - ( the liquor is free).
We try and hear everyone's system but many rooms can only handle a half dozen folks at a time. Really, when I get ten or twelve club members over at one time it's really hard for most to listen clearly as there is way to much nattering going on. The only time they stop shootin off at the lips is when the better half trots out with sandwiches and fresh ice.
Anyway it's always an interesting and provocative evening.

I've learned a great deal by listening to other systems, I've probably learned even more by not listening and just enjoying the music and good company.
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Wed May 07, 2014 1:42 pm

Hi Tim

I always found the meetings to be interesting. The weird part to me is I don't understand why someone would spend all that money and not want to take the sound all the way. I think it must be the way I grew up in music that makes me look at the audiophile and roll my eyes a little. I go through the same thing with many studio engineers. When I'm with someone in the live room tuning (voicing) in the instruments the engineer is no where to be found most of the time. I will be with the artist and piano tuner but no engineer. The engineer many times acts like he is on the clock instead of making a creation based on what is going on. "I'll fix it in the mix" is something I have heard all my life.

The other part I don't get, which you'll see me on the Stereophile forum talking about is the "fixed system". Why do audiophiles have fixed systems? I don't get it never have. Again coming from the studio, I always tuned my playback and when I started in High End Audio many years ago would see people standing around saying what was wrong with a recording but they never did anything about it. You can read what I did in the reviewers systems but still it somehow was never translated to "we can change the audio system to play the signal more clearly". And what blows my mind is that this is so foreign to most high end audio folks.

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Sat May 10, 2014 9:24 pm

Hi Folks

Again I want to thank the visitors who have been coming up and reading this thread as well as the forum. I hope that it is of benefit, and I'm glad that Stereophile has been open enough to hear out my views and the views of others. This is where the rubber meets the road.

I've started posting on this thread http://www.stereophile.com/content/why-does-vibration-control-work-1 and as has been the norm so far there are challenges made against the thought of variable tuning. I hope you will go up and read my responses to this, and as always you are welcome to join in either here or there.

One thing that I have always found interesting in this hobby is when your talking to people about issues you find out sooner or later how deeply they really have gotten into this industry or hobby. Do they speak before really investigating what they are talking about, or have they tried something and built a theory around a change it made in their system? This particular thread that I just refered to gives a fairly good example of someone wanting people to follow them but not doing enough research on their own before making bold claims on things they are selling and their own method of listening. In this case it turns out the the pusher is not listening to an in room stereo at all yet wants to make his claims of products and tweaks as the way to go. I have found this to be common practice among many audio designers. I hope you read it cause it will tell a story that happens often and people buy into it.

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Sun May 11, 2014 7:09 am

I'm not buying it or anything Geoff sells.
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Sun May 11, 2014 10:14 am

Hi Tim

Isn't that remarkable! This is what I have been talking about. I really do appreciate what the designers have given us as a look into part of the soundstage. The signal we have to play with holds so many treasures, but I can tell when someone is trying to "pull the wool". They make claims but can't go much further than that.

6 years, this guy has not had a stereo system setup in a room and is pushing product boldly. Remember I told you about guys in the industry who do this. Guys who are not nearly as serious about the sound as the end user. I have met more hobbyist that have systems that in my book distroy the sound of those who are making products or even reviewing. Not always but many times. I feel if your going to be doing the designing for folks in this business you have got to be one grazed listening animal. And you have to be actively willing to learn. Like for example your system. It takes all of two seconds to see what happened when you removed the system from the room. How would a guy who doesn't even listen get what you did?

I don't know if you ever get chances to come to shows but if you do you will walk around saying "what are these guys thinking". When you walk through the halls and get close to a doorway you can hear the system playing in the room. It sounds slighty out of pitch many times. So you walk in the room and there is sound but no soundstage. The sound is directly in the speaker. You find a seat and if lucky you will find a sweetspot. The music will be playing directly in front of you in this box. The designer will be talking and the guys will be doing what they do but the longer you sit there you can tell that only part of the music is making it's way through the system. Does the designer address this? Never. You buy that recording and bring it home to find that your system does about 3 times more than that show system did.

there is nothing like a listener on a mission

I feel that in many cases the listener has out grown the companies producing equipment. The designer many times lives only in their own reality, and many times inside of that narrow reality they get off track and stop actually listening. They end up applying theory and debate but it stops there. No more roll up their sleaves and jumping in. They'll pick a "part" of the sound to focus on and get lost in that one particular sound or revelation and that's all they can see. The listener on the other hand. He's the guy that puts on a recording and it either sounds great, good, fair or poor. At that point is when the decision comes in. Do I go for it, or leave it alone? Do I make my system have a general sound or do I become the explorer? With either choice a good listener is still in control, and ends up coming up with a system that does what he wants, or keeps going till he gives up or finds it.

The designer must realize that in many ways the listener is just as much of a designer as these audio names are. When I see a designer that is inflexible, I know right off the bat there is some buffalo going on. A good designer knows that the signal is not stuck in a particular sound unless the designer stuck it there. If he really is a good designer he will stop pushing for his sound and be able to help others get their sound. That is one of the things I look for and for myself is very telling. Why would someone want to listen to someone elses sound, with the exception of visiting their sound for a minute, but then returning home.

good to see you

 Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Sun May 11, 2014 11:42 am

A challenge has been made.

Geoff from the stereophile forums would like to challenge whatever it is he wishes to point out. He says that when I applied dampening in the past I did it wrong, but he also says "I don't even know what you're talking about" so this should be interesting. Laughing 

Geoff says that the audio signal is an electromagnetic wave not a vibration.

so lets look up electromagnetic wave

1.wave of electromagnetic energy: a wave of energy with a frequency within the electromagnetic spectrum, generated by the periodic fluctuation of an electromagnetic field resulting from the acceleration or oscillation of an electric charge. Electromagnetic waves can be reflected, refracted, and polarized, and exhibit interference and diffraction effects. You also might want to look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum

oscillation

Oscillation is the repetitive variation, typically in time, of some measure about a central value (often a point of equilibrium) or between two or more different states. Familiar examples include a swinging pendulum and alternating current power. The term vibration is sometimes used more narrowly to mean a mechanical oscillation but is sometimes used as a synonym of "oscillation".

now lets look up audio signal

An audio signal is a representation of sound, typically as an electrical voltage. Audio signals have frequencies in the audio frequency range of roughly 20 to 20,000 Hz (the limits of human hearing). Audio signals may be synthesized directly, or may originate at a transducer such as a microphone, musical instrument pickup, phonograph cartridge, or tape head. Loudspeakers or headphones convert an electrical audio signal into sound. Digital representations of audio signals exist in a variety of formats.

Signal flow is the path an audio signal will take from source (microphone) to the speaker or recording device. It is most frequently in a recording studio setting, where the signal flow is often very long and convoluted as the electric signal may pass through many sections of a large analog console, external audio equipment, and even different rooms.

Audio signals may be characterized by parameters such as their bandwidth, power level in decibels (dB), and voltage level. The relation between power and voltage is determined by the impedance of the signal path, which may be single-ended or balanced.

audio

of or relating to acoustic, mechanical, or electrical frequencies corresponding to normally audible sound waves which are of frequencies approximately from 15 to 20,000 hertz

wave

In physics, a wave is disturbance or oscillation that travels through matter/space, accompanied by a transfer of energy. Wave motion transfers energy from one point to another, often with no permanent displacement of the particles of the medium—that is, with little or no associated mass transport. They consist, instead, of oscillations or vibrations around almost fixed locations. Waves are described by a wave equation which sets out how the disturbance proceeds over time. The mathematical form of this equation varies depending on the type of wave.

There are two main types of waves. Mechanical waves propagate through a medium, and the substance of this medium is deformed. The deformation reverses itself owing to restoring forces resulting from its deformation. For example, sound waves propagate via air molecules colliding with their neighbors. When air molecules collide, they also bounce away from each other (a restoring force). This keeps the molecules from continuing to travel in the direction of the wave.

The second main type of wave, electromagnetic waves, do not require a medium. Instead, they consist of periodic oscillations of electrical and magnetic fields generated by charged particles, and can therefore travel through a vacuum. These types of waves vary in wavelength, and include radio waves, microwaves, infrared radiation, visible light, ultraviolet radiation, X-rays, and gamma rays.

Further, the behavior of particles in quantum mechanics are described by waves. In addition, gravitational waves also travel through space, which are a result of a vibration or movement in gravitational fields.

A wave can be transverse or longitudinal depending on the direction of its oscillation. Transverse waves occur when a disturbance creates oscillations perpendicular (at right angles) to the propagation (the direction of energy transfer). Longitudinal waves occur when the oscillations are parallel to the direction of propagation. While mechanical waves can be both transverse and longitudinal, all electromagnetic waves are transverse.

A single, all-encompassing definition for the term wave is not straightforward. A vibration can be defined as a back-and-forth motion around a reference value. However, a vibration is not necessarily a wave. An attempt to define the necessary and sufficient characteristics that qualify a phenomenon to be called a wave results in a fuzzy border line.

The term wave is often intuitively understood as referring to a transport of spatial disturbances that are generally not accompanied by a motion of the medium occupying this space as a whole. In a wave, the energy of a vibration is moving away from the source in the form of a disturbance within the surrounding medium (Hall 1980, p. Cool. However, this notion is problematic for a standing wave (for example, a wave on a string), where energy is moving in both directions equally, or for electromagnetic (e.g., light) waves in a vacuum, where the concept of medium does not apply and interaction with a target is the key to wave detection and practical applications. There are water waves on the ocean surface; gamma waves and light waves emitted by the Sun; microwaves used in microwave ovens and in radar equipment; radio waves broadcast by radio stations; and sound waves generated by radio receivers, telephone handsets and living creatures (as voices), to mention only a few wave phenomena.

It may appear that the description of waves is closely related to their physical origin for each specific instance of a wave process. For example, acoustics is distinguished from optics in that sound waves are related to a mechanical rather than an electromagnetic wave transfer caused by vibration. Concepts such as mass, momentum, inertia, or elasticity, become therefore crucial in describing acoustic (as distinct from optic) wave processes. This difference in origin introduces certain wave characteristics particular to the properties of the medium involved. For example, in the case of air: vortices, radiation pressure, shock waves etc.; in the case of solids: Rayleigh waves, dispersion; and so on.

Other properties, however, although usually described in terms of origin, may be generalized to all waves. For such reasons, wave theory represents a particular branch of physics that is concerned with the properties of wave processes independently of their physical origin.[1] For example, based on the mechanical origin of acoustic waves, a moving disturbance in space–time can exist if and only if the medium involved is neither infinitely stiff nor infinitely pliable. If all the parts making up a medium were rigidly bound, then they would all vibrate as one, with no delay in the transmission of the vibration and therefore no wave motion. On the other hand, if all the parts were independent, then there would not be any transmission of the vibration and again, no wave motion. Although the above statements are meaningless in the case of waves that do not require a medium, they reveal a characteristic that is relevant to all waves regardless of origin: within a wave, the phase of a vibration (that is, its position within the vibration cycle) is different for adjacent points in space because the vibration reaches these points at different times.

Similarly, wave processes revealed from the study of waves other than sound waves can be significant to the understanding of sound phenomena. A relevant example is Thomas Young's principle of interference (Young, 1802, in Hunt 1992, p. 132). This principle was first introduced in Young's study of light and, within some specific contexts (for example, scattering of sound by sound), is still a researched area in the study of sound.

what is sound

Vibrations sensed by ear: vibrations traveling through air, water, or some other medium, especially those within the range of frequencies that can be perceived by the human ear.

My first question to Geoff is. Why do cables sound different from each other?

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Sun May 11, 2014 1:06 pm

The audio signal in transit.

It's great to talk audio theory, but when that's all there is, the message starts to become pointless. The audio signal is in transit: the act of passing over, across, or through.

This is where the witch hunt begins. Somewhere in audiophile or engineering history the word vibration was made into a negative, "kill the vibration". Even though this is what the instruments do, and the mic diaphragm does, and the ear does, the audio techno-nerd can't deal with the idea of the audio signal beinging anything but this somehow non-vibration action. They started developing all these different devices to somehow remove the vibration away from sound. But can we get a little more practical here? Something is moving, and if that movement is dampened what happens? That's right, it stops moving prematurely and that means you don't get the whole picture.

Read carefully through the last post and you'll notice that in the passing of signal there are mediums which I call mechanical conduits (the actual material the signal is traveling through). These conduits do indeed vibrate. You'll also notice where the line is fuzzy between wave and vibration this is because a wave in concept is different from a vibration but this only until it must pass through a material.

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Sun May 11, 2014 2:12 pm

I couldn't help but notice the reference Geoff made to a microscope isolation stand. We have all been there. It is fairly easy to isolate towards a microscopic presentation favoring certain qualities over others. But, you lose the forest for the trees. As you state, what's gone is gone.

We are dealing with areas I doubt anyone truly understands, but, vibration is the foundation of music and must be maintained intact. A music reproduction system is a closed loop and everything affects everything else. To fight vibration instead of using it to your advantage is rather pointless as the vibrations can never truly be eliminated. No matter how much isolation or dampening is applied, vibration will find its way in anyways in other areas by shifting to adjacent components or through air borne influences.
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Sun May 11, 2014 7:29 pm

I hate to say it Michael but this poor fellows about as narrow minded as it gets. I've been reading his posts at Stereophile and other places for years and get quite a chuckle out of his antics trying to sell magic dust and such. Your really chasing your tail if you think you can make him see the light.

But if you do pursue this it'll be fun to watch.  lol! 








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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Sun May 11, 2014 7:52 pm

Laughing  It is funny that's for sure  Exclamation 

I don't really care if he changes his mind, cause I've run into this type many times. What I like is that when these guys come up it allows me and others the opportunity to share things that losens up the fixed thinking.

My goal in visiting is I get contact from those who have bought into certain things and now after spending much time and money feel stuck and a little like they've been ripped off by a misleading industry. I'd like to see this reversed and restored to the hobby of listening and for each hobbyist to actually get the sound they've always wanted. I think it's true, some of these guys are going to have to get their butts kicked a little, but in the end people are reading and some of those people are sitting there saying thank God people are finally talking about what do I do with this stuff after I get it, or is it the right stuff at all, or can I make it sound better? And for those it makes it worth while. In a way these nah sayers are good advertising for better sound.  Plus it does make for a good laugh  Smile 

Geoff converting? What would he convert to? He's said he hasn't had a system for 6 years. 6 years I think, you and I and other guys have a hard time going for 6 minutes without the jamms on.

makes life interesting, good having you here  Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Sun May 11, 2014 7:55 pm

You would think Geoff would be a big proponent of tuning as many of his products are tuning devices. Other than his dampening and isolation theories he would be a natural candidate for variable tuning. Perhaps he feels threatened as many other vendors most likely do.
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Sun May 11, 2014 8:43 pm

it's true


We've always been like, hey come on in a listen, and would have the fun reviewers and artist in our rooms, and we would do stuff with MoFi Records and other artsy things and there would be TV cameras there, really just a fun time, and some of these engineer type designers and audiophiles looked scared to death when they got around us.

Honestly I think their not very secure with their own listening. I've met some of these guys that were so uptight that when they sat down to listen to systems (if the host could get them to sit down) they really weren't able to let their minds even listen. They could talk tech talk forever but got very nervous around the music.

kinda interesting to watch these guys, and you wonder why they are in a hobby about music, I mean some very uptight people

Reminds me of Herb from MoFi Records (past now, I loved Herb). At a show here in Vegas we did together he looked at me and would say "now they could use an enema"  Laughing . By the end of the show I couldn't even look at him when someone uptight would come in our room  Laughing . I'd glance over and he'd be smiling at me and I'd fall out. I would be sitting there, no kidding, talking to some snobs and Herb would come over and say "you look like you could use" then offer them some wine, but I'd be on the floor dying. He was a crack up for sure. Good times Exclamation 

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Mon May 12, 2014 1:23 pm

Hi Guys

Another thread for you to view http://www.stereophile.com/content/jason-victor-serinus-report-axpona-audio-show .

This to me clearly shows an industry questioning itself.

one step closer to tuning is what I see in the hobbies future  Smile 

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Mon May 12, 2014 10:09 pm

Sorry Michael, I may have stolen some of your thunder on the above mentioned post.

Nothing gets my hackles up more than misquoting a reviewer to add weight to an argument. It may not have been her intention, but, she used it to push some of her products.

She appears to be somewhat friendly with Geoff as she came to his defense when he was recently permanently banned from AudioAsylum for his antics. But, apparently based on AA posts, he was "replicating" some of her products, so who knows.

She does seem to have a few valid points concerning resonators and such but am at a loss as to what they do ... seems common in that vein of the tweaking world she participates in.

I did not appreciate her thinly veiled attempt, though, to push her products and marginalize tuning by putting it at same level as cd pens and de-magnifiers. That's so 80's. How did she put it, oh yeah "vibration problems being 'dealt with'". In other words, dog whistle for the  isolation/dampener types.

Update:

I just checked her website and that is some wacky stuff. Electret cream, rainbow foil, comfort foils with symbols, one drop liquid for CDs and the list goes on. All backed by research into how human evolution provided senses that these products activate or something to that effect. Or front facing light for the one drop liquid.

I want my 15 minutes back from reading all that.

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Tue May 13, 2014 6:16 am

Hi Toledo

Painful, isn't it  Laughing 

All these folks with all these products, but if you want to take Seconds Out and hear "Une fois!" with a tad more or less hall they can do nothing for you. They paint you their picture, but you've moved on to the motion theatre. They don't get that they are only showing one frame whereas you have access to the whole roll of film.

"remarkable" I keep saying, It totally blows my mind that the industry with all their collective smarts has not moved beyond this.


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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Tue May 13, 2014 12:11 pm

Now Geoff asks me to "come over to our side" where the heck is "our side"?

You have a million products being built all giving a different sound and all claiming to be "The Sound" and that's the side he wants me to join? I think I'll choose the side that has a few systems that we can make sound however we want. Sounds a whole heck of a lot easier to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Tue May 13, 2014 12:19 pm

I dont think Geoff really believes in the whole tweaking thing.

My take is that he pushes his ideas as far as he can to see how gullible audiofools can be and then sits back and chuckles. Its all just a day of fun for him in a sociopathic kinda way.

Everything is tongue-in-cheek with him.
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Tue May 13, 2014 3:14 pm

Ok I get it, jokes on me  Laughing 

So we've mentioned Geoff right? Well, he put up a post recommending that someone put their speakers 4' apart. Didn't ask about his room or his speakers, just jumps out with this as a tweak. Put your speakers 4-4.5' apart.

my head hurts  scratch Laughing 

Is this industry really that far off? have I been sleeping  Sleep 

I guess one side of me feels like a snob and the other side their 1st grade teacher. How can anyone call themselves a designer of audio and say these things? I mean I could almost stretch for the speakers close together if there was a reason like occasionally with an MBL or something odd like that and if the system was somehow super open, but that close together and with dampened components. Please someone tell me that the whole industry is not like this guy and this is only a bad dream.

Toledo, I think we should torture him  Basketball 

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Tue May 13, 2014 10:26 pm

I think a little tuning rod and canopy head piece will do the trick Twisted Evil 

No ... Geoff needs to be taken out in public and shown as the huckster he really is.

He has been living on borrowed time and milked his isolation platforms, but, has evolved into retreading others stale ideas and takes pride in privately chuckling about how gullible audio fans can be and has no compunction taking their money and laughing all the way to the bank.

He leaves a foul stench where ever he goes. Like I stated earlier, he was banned from AudioAsylum in April. If you search on google he has left quite a trail there also.
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Tue May 13, 2014 10:50 pm

hi Toledo

Yep I just posted again, and hope that maybe he will back away, but if not well I don't see us letting him off the hook.

I think and hope there are people who look up to places like the Stereophile forum and our happy home who appreciate solid helpful guidence (and a feeling of working together), but when I see people throwing mudd under listeners wheels it makes me sad for the industry. It's the very thing that has killed this hobby for so many. Who wants to have someone who is not even listening to a system give them advice. Now he claims he has a system but I don't buy it.

If you look here http://www.stereophile.com/content/headphone-soundstage it says he doesn't even have an inroom stereo. And that's cool with me, but when advice is thrown at people based on nothing it puts a very bad light on the experts who do have something to offer.

I'll tell you what though, it sure makes me glad I know what I'm doing  Laughing . I'd hate to be in his lost audio world drunken 

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Tue May 13, 2014 11:03 pm

Yup, I left a couple of posts also. I am going to let him hang himself with his own words. I don't see him backing off ... Not with his past.
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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Wed May 14, 2014 12:58 am

I feel terrible and hate to say it, but it is kinda fun to watch one of these guys who hasn't a clue, but yet shares words from the book of nothingness bite the dust.


Now why does that make me feel good? I must be evil or something  pirat 

At the same time though I do like some of the other posting going on there and hope they don't turn all weird. A couple of these guys I think would enjoy Tuneland.

But it is weird being so far ahead of most of the crowd there. How can someone not even stumble across tuning? It doesn't make any sense to me to have all these guys with all these sounds and no one can connect the dots that there may be something going on here. fixed to fixed to fixed How can an industry sell 5000 different sounding systems and no one come up with maybe they should be tunable?

Sometimes I can just see these guys sitting around thinking they have the right sound and everyone else is listening to distortion.

Oh BTW, Harold is here and we were testing stains today.

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile forum   Wed May 14, 2014 1:35 am

You're too nice Michael ... He brought it on himself. But, I admit I do get a little pang of guilt ...

Yes there does seem to be an interesting mix of folks on there and it appears a lot of them don't enjoy BS. Here's hoping some constructive discussions ensue.

Based on view counts, a lot of people are seeing there is a variable tuned solution to the fixed/tweaked system. I really think people have tired of the endless tweak of the week approach not to mention the component of the month club.

Did i hear stain? Cool. Trying it on the new 6s?
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