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PostSubject: tmsorosk's system   Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:08 pm

TuneLand welcomes tmsorosk (Tim)

Looking forward to tuning together Tim  Very Happy




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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:26 pm

Thanks for the intro and posting the pictures Michael .

As a new member I'd like to say hello to everyone . I'm new here but certainly not new to audio . I started playing around with this stuff in the early seventies when I soldered up my first few amps , the rest is history .

The pictures are of one of my three systems . As you can see the second picture , my revised main system , consists of Revel Studio speakers a  Levinson #532 amp , Ayre KX-R preamp , Ayre C5exMP CD player and Audio Research DAC8 . Power conditioning and cords are by Shunyata , interconnects and digital links are from Shunyata,  Madrigal , Vandenhul and Audio Quest , speaker cables are MIT Oracles . I got rid of my turntables  ( S.M.E. 20/12 and Linn Sondek LP12 )  and all the analog stuff a couple years ago as the CD playback rig left little to be desired . After years of having gear and wires strewn everywhere I decided to tidy things up and the second picture is the result . Sound improved too .

The second / vintage system consists of B&W Silver Signature speakers , A Cary CAD 805 AE power amp , C.J. Art preamp and Linn Sondek CD12 CD player .

The third / garage system consists of Paradigm Anniversary Inspiration speakers , Ayre AX7mp integrated amp , DAC is also an A.R. DAC8 , source is either from a digital cable box or I-pod . Power cords are by Shuyata and speaker cables are Cardas  Clears . All systems have dedicated power .

Look forward to conversing with you folks , have a grand day .
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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:52 am

Welcome Tim!

The Tune is a fun place and we are all on a journey to better musick reproduction in our rooms. Glad you are joining us. Sonic is waiting to see where Mr Green would start with your room and system. Have a look at Harold Cooper's thread for a good description of what the Tune can do. Of course many of us like Sonic have limitations on how far we can go with our rooms and individual domestic circumstances. But every step takes us away from conventional audiophile sound to something really special.

Have you ever tried placing the Revels further out into the room?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:55 pm

"I just realized I may have posted this thread in the wrong category, if are host would like to move it that would be okay by me .

I spent some time this weekend tinkering with the garage system , moving things around , dressing cables and trying to find a way to relocate the speakers so there further apart . No matter what I did I ran into many problems trying to separate the speakers , so in the end I decided to move the speakers as far apart as possible in there current safety enclosure .

The speakers are close to the ceiling ( the tweeter is 12" away ) and angled slightly down, I'm getting a slight bit to much high frequency bite with some music . Would putting a soft wood on the ceiling in front of the speakers make an improvement ? I've also seen multi depth wood defusers , would this be the right way to treat this problem ?

Thanks in advance - Tim"

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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:04 pm

Hi Tim

Have you ever turned the speakers up side down or on their sides?

Yes wood has a huge effect, but if not voiced it can sound horrible. As you read through some of the threads here I'm sure your going to pick up on how some of the voicing is done. We happen to be voicing some clients wood at the moment.

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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:24 pm

Sonic.beaver wrote:
Welcome Tim!

The Tune is a fun place and we are all on a journey to better musick reproduction in our rooms. Glad you are joining us.  Sonic is waiting to see where Mr Green would start with your room and system. Have a look at Harold Cooper's thread for a good description of what the Tune can do.  Of course many of us like Sonic have limitations on how far we can go with our rooms and individual domestic circumstances. But every step takes us away from conventional audiophile sound to something really special.

Have you ever tried placing the Revels further out into the room?

Sonic  

it's hard to see from the picture but the front grills are just slightly over 5' from the front wall . I have tried them just about everywhere , out as far as 8' as well as much closer together and fined tuned the toe and rake . Have not tried them upside down or on there sides .
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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:10 pm

Tim's garage system

The third / garage system consists of Paradigm Anniversary Inspiration speakers , Ayre AX7mp integrated amp , DAC is also an A.R. DAC8 , source is either from a digital cable box or I-pod . Power cords are by Shuyata and speaker cables are Cardas Clears . All systems have dedicated power .


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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:51 am

Michael

Which speakers are you talking about turning upside down? You referring to the floorstanders....why the question, what are you getting at?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:28 pm

Hi Sonic

I was refering to the garage system  Laughing , sorry about that. Tim has 3 systems.

For myself I would have to find a way to separate the speakers from being in the center like they are now.

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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:53 am

Michael Green wrote:
Hi Tim

Have you ever turned the speakers up side down or on their sides?

Yes wood has a huge effect, but if not voiced it can sound horrible. As you read through some of the threads here I'm sure your going to pick up on how some of the voicing is done. We happen to be voicing some clients wood at the moment.

I got a chance to try the speakers in some different positions this past weekend. Surprisingly there wasn't a big difference. Getting the speakers about 9' apart imparted a little bigger sound stage but nothing to write home about, of coarse going from one meter Cardas Clear Sky speaker cables to some old crappy and much longer Monster cables didn't help.
Turning the speakers upside down and on there sides had varying results. They probably sounded best upside down but only slightly. I don't know if it would be worth leaving them that way as to the comments one would have to endure. A friend wandered by, took a long look and suggested I was on glue. Two other friends felt I must have got a hold of some bad weed or something. I'll be putting them right side up before Whisky-Night thats for sure.
Anyway I thought I might leave them the way they were but separate them as much as possible in the existing cabinet. I wonder if building some platforms for them to sit on would be of any advantage? I could angle them down slightly too.

I've been thinking about platforms for system number one as well but because that system is in the family room it will be hard finding a solution thats socially acceptable and sounds just right too.

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:50 pm

Hi Tim

The speakers in the family room would love Platforms. One layer away from the carpet with these would add quite a bit of tonal structure.

When you walk up to the upper corners of the room are you getting a lot of loading back?


Sounds like you and the friends have a lot of fun with each other  Cool 

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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:00 am

Michael Green wrote:
Hi Tim

The speakers in the family room would love Platforms. One layer away from the carpet with these would add quite a bit of tonal structure.

When you walk up to the upper corners of the room are you getting a lot of loading back?


Sounds like you and the friends have a lot of fun with each other  Cool 

Yeah my friends are a bit of a caution to say the least.

If by "loading back" you mean loading up of bass in the corners, I would say slightly but not as prominent as some rooms I've been in. The Revels have a three position low frequency boundary control switch which I've used in conjunction with speaker positioning to smooth out the low frequency response. The Revels seem to be very room friendly, do to good design and a neutral balance I should think. One thing I've noticed, I've heard these speakers in several other rooms with similar electronics and they always had a more pronounced bass presentation ( more bass slam ) . That may or may not be a good thing but it's one thing I do notice immediately. My biggest concern is that the speakers don't sit firmly on the floor do to thick carpeting.

Tim


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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Thu May 01, 2014 12:25 am

Yep, I think Platforms would be a whole new ball game. Do the walls have a fair amount of texture?




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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Thu May 01, 2014 8:07 am

Michael Green wrote:
Yep, I think Platforms would be a whole new ball game. Do the walls have a fair amount of texture?




Not really. I laminated 1/2" by 5" strips of HDF ( high density fiberboard ) flooring to excising 1/2" drywall, that seemed to help, much of the back wall is open to another part of the house. I'm still using a couple first reflection sound absorbers I made years ago and one large store bought bass trap. Also have an absorber that fits over the big screen when more serious listening is being done. Ceiling is peaked up about 18' in the center. Seems to be a fairly neutral room. Room measures 16' by 28' x 8' to 9 1/2' ceiling.

I think platforms would be a big help too, but finding ones that are somewhat socially acceptable in appearance and size will be the trick. Are custom built sizes available ?

Thanks Tim


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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Thu May 01, 2014 9:41 am

Hi Tim

Sure, I do custom goodies for my private clients who have some of the big speakers. Because I do mostly low mass they don't necessarily hang around TuneLand. But, I can make products that will fit your style and performance.

Do you have a problem with the feet going through your carpet? With that much weight they will definitely go through. But you want the tips to barely touch so that the wood can do it's thing. The feet are more for the stability and the Platform in this case would carry the tone, cause you don't want the sound of the carpet to go back into the speaker. Surprising how much does even with the big "inert" types. I did a set of Goldmunds where the client liked the look but swore they wouldn't change the sound.  Laughing he freaked. He told me that when the company came to his house that the speaker was completely self contained. I laughed of course and said everything is tunable. Once we got it setup they were pretty amazed. This was a few years ago but I ended up floating their whole floor.

I like the peak in the room. Good for loading. Some (most) of the acoustical guys don't like loading. I'm the oposite. I like loading, I just like controlling it and not killing it. If you look at any of the music halls I've done you'll see that all the acoustics are where the burn is not facing the audience or listeners directly. You want to keep your area of pressure clean while the burning is done away from your ears.

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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Thu May 01, 2014 10:02 pm

Hi Tim



If you can measure the biggest footprint that you can handle and let me know, that's the starting point. I can't tell what that is next to the speaker on the right (on floor), hopefully it's not a vent. If it is possible to take the platform all the way to the wall that is a big help for bass response. If not then we'll do the best we can.

Keep in mind the bigger the platform the better the range response. As you've seen in reviews some have had me run the platform the entire width of the room. Of course with the carpet in there your not going to want to do that unless we redid the floor in that area (which people do).

So let me know that measurement and I'll do a down view drawing and start things in motion for you to think about.

Once I get the size I then go pick out the wood and start working on it. The platform is voiced differently depending on the size and weight. Sometimes it is a framed platform other times a voiced tuning board with voicing ribs underneigh it. It's just like a piano board.

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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Fri May 02, 2014 8:13 am

Hello

I came up with a measurement of 30" wide by 38" deep. That is a vent next to the right speaker, it probably creates static and dries out the speaker cabinet, I've been thinking of eliminating it any way so nows as good a time as any. We can go all the way to the wall.
I was a little out to lunch on the weight, what I gave you was shipping weight, they are 112 lb. The ports fire downward if that makes any difference. They have a small built-in platform under the port. They are current models so there is a lot of info about them on Revels site under Studio 2 if you need it.

Thanks again Tim

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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Fri May 02, 2014 10:16 pm

Hi Tim

I have been looking at the model, thanks. Also I have an appointment with the lumberyard to look at wood and voicing strips (ribs). 112lbs falls right on the crack, but after looking at your room some more I'm thinking that the rib design is the way to go. I would voice it so that you have a fair amount of flexibility on where to place the speaker on the surface. However the port is going to love this platform and will probably tell you pretty quick where it wants to be.

Better get out your string bass and organ music cause its going to be a whole new adventure. Your also going to increase the size of your sweetspot and stage. Once this is done, we might want to revisit your "first reflection" cause you will want to treat that area differently (I'll help you with this).

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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Sat May 03, 2014 11:28 am


Greetings Tim

The First Reflection Points idea so revered by audiophiles. M Green challenged this and it took Sonic some time back then to think there could be a better way to get Tone and Stage than this.

After abandoning the First Reflection Point Thought for tunes from Michael then occasionally revisiting the First Reflection Points with acoustic treatment, Sonic can conclude:

a. If your room is untreated, almost anything will work and the First Reflection Point Thought/Treatment will make a difference which is likely to be an improvement over the Start Line Zero.

b. As you start Tune you will find that the First Reflection Point Thought/Treatment is very primary and later irrelevant in the scheme of things. So much improvements can be got from Tuning in many parts of the room, including high up the walls and ceiling.

c. Then as the Tune creates a new listening space for you, the First Reflection Points become irrelevant and later placing treatment in these zones becomes a backward step that compromises the sound of your room.

In Sonic's listening room there is acoustic absorption (burn as Michael puts it) but nothing remotely near the First Reflection Points. It would be appearing that my set up is dealing with flow along surfaces.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Sun May 04, 2014 10:59 am

Good points Sonic.

I should mention, although I'm always seeking improvements with the main system ( see picture above) it sounds extremely good. There are two things I credit to this. First I've purchased quality built equipment that does not vibrate or resonate excessively under normal conditions. Most of the equipment doesn't require excessive isolation or mass loading or other bizarre and unsightly forms of stabilization to sound natural. The second reason is, I've recessed the equipment into the front wall to reduce air born vibrations and stabilize and reduce the migration of vertical and horizontal resonations caused by speaker to floor interactions. After much testing it became clear that the use of spikes, cones, shelves and isolation devices amplified and exasperated the problem. I found every isolation device including spikes had it's own flavor.
As we know EVERYTHING resonates at a given frequency so anything we add anywhere can have an unnatural and in most cases unwanted affect.    

  Have a grand day  -   Tim
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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Sun May 04, 2014 8:53 pm

Hi Tim and Tunees

Count your lucky stars my friend Exclamation  I hardly ever run into someone who has a system working for them without needing an vibratory overhaul. But, as Tim says take a look at the before and after, there's something very important here.





Look at what Tim has removed from the equation. This is a perfect example of pressure zone balancing. By removing the acoustical distortion happening in the front left corner, the left and right corner loading has been evened out more.

Also I'm thinking that there is a little magical room port action going on with the opening behind the right speaker.

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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Thu May 08, 2014 11:42 pm

Hi Tim

I was thrilled at your last post on the Stereophile forum. Absolutely right on Exclamation 

As I said there, people are so use to a fixed way of thinking in this hobby that they are over looking that all of this is variable. No one has to land on a pitch that is slightly out, or something out of balance, or a different recording sounding odd. This whole hobby is and has been tunable.

But here's the thing. The reviewers even though they did reviews on me didn't want to get all crazy over this tunable stuff cause it suggest that maybe a products (speakers, amps and so on) sound is not what everyone thought they were. "it's easier to move a box than a method" is what I was told by several of the guys, so even though I was tuning them in they didn't want to have people questioning the plug and play cause it was generating ads and a market that was feeding the audiophile industry. If you look back though you will see where the reviewers were starting to tune, but it was too big of a step for the industry to turn everything over to variable.

You see, all of this has to become variable anyway. Sooner or later this is going to become the norm for the audiophile, to get a system and tune it in. Right now it may sound like another way among many others, but there will be many companies who will be making components that you buy, bring it home and tune it in. We got part way there by all this plug and play stuff but this only proves the point that systems are meant and need to be tuned.

Why is it taking them so long?

It's taking so long to catch on for only one reason. Ads, and the reluctance of a small industry to risk their cash flow and probably reputations to a degree.

All this time the industry has been recreating the same thing, but now that their market is drying up the timing is right to reintroduce tuning. This time maybe they won't be so afraid of change. The great thing is this, no one can try tuning a say it doesn't work. Of course it does, and everytime someone makes a change for the better or worse their tuning. They not be tuning in the right direction but that will come in time as they learn more about how to.

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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Fri May 09, 2014 12:18 am

If I may, let me share something with you.

If your a reviewer or stereo store. How long does it take to sell a component? An internet sale is 20 minutes. A pre-sold store sale is a little longer. How long does it take to read an article? Not long. Now how long does it take to set up a system and get it sounding good?

That's the part the industry wanted nothing to do with. At first you had components and speakers. Then cable swapping & accessories, then racks and acoustics and other accessories. If you follow the history of all this you will see how the hobby was built. System tuning is a chapter that is barely getting scratched, for one, it takes a lot of time to tell someone how to, two reviewers don't do it, and three it would lead to equipment design changes. look at audiocircle and these audiophile engineering sites. They stay pretty busy swapping parts, but still aren't tuning. So, now you have an industry in a bunch of camps and every camp thinks they are right. Of course they do, their guys. But what happens when you start tuning?

When you start tuning you are now talking about variables and that scares the willys out of the engineer. You read a manual on a stringed instrument and you'll find tons of things to do that are inbetween the notes, you suggest something other than fixed to an engineer and they will swear systems don't vibrate. Scared to death that a change will happen that they can't put a number on. They'll go screaming (I've seen them) distortion if it is something they don't get. And that's what has happened to the audiophile world. It has gone from fixed to fixed and doesn't realize that this whole thing is variable.

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PostSubject: Platforms   Sat May 24, 2014 10:23 pm


Hello Michael

I was wondering if there had been any progress on my platforms ?

I'm not in a hurry and would always rather do things right than fast.

Thanks Tim
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PostSubject: Re: tmsorosk's system   Sun May 25, 2014 8:58 pm

Hi Tim

I apologize for being so slow. Here's the instrument platform. I actually got this idea from making cello platforms years ago for the San Francisco Symphony. I designed a peg for them and ended up making an entire platform. I then try it out on my Wilson/Goldmund/Avalon clients.



Underneath you will see the voicers. Once you get the tone right your set to go.

The speakers sit on the platform and the vibrations make their way to the voicers underneath the top tuning board. The top board and voicers are separated by metal and wood washers. You will get a couple different types of these so that you can get the voicing right if too one way or the other tone wise. You will also be able to adjust from the top after everything is set. The 5/16 spikes are more like grounding rods. So once the tone of the unit is set the rods make their way to ground completing the transfer.

This is a perfect setup for the style and weight of your speakers.

 Cool 

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