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 Toledo's system

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Toledo



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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri May 02, 2014 1:27 am

I picked up the paradigm x-20 while I could. Not too many crossover choices anymore ... Just about everything has gone powered subs.

I was thinking about the paradigm sub amp with integrated crossover but would prefer to choose a low mass tunable amp.

Hopefully this will allow the use of speaker B outputs on receiver and will keep sub woofer volume in sync with receiver volume. It all depends on if the subwoofer output can be be hooked into an external amps input. I don't see why not...one would hope that this acts like a variable preamp output. Also hope the impedance load is similar to the K-ohm range a line level component would present so that the receiver is not taxed driving speakers A+B under 8ohms.

Any ideas for a small, good low mass mono amp?

Michael, how much power do you figure your passive sub needs?

I won't use the satellite output to the mains, though. Want to keep the signal as clean as possible to main speakers.


X20 speaker and line level inputs




X30 line level only crossover


Last edited by Toledo on Fri May 02, 2014 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri May 02, 2014 8:26 pm

Hi Toledo

I have not used the X-30 in a while, how is it different than the X-20?

The best amp I have ever heard on the SW10 was the MA700 by Marantz. The Outlaw is good and the AudioSource was surprisingly good as well. Once the SW10 is broken in it's pretty easy to drive, however because it does something I've not heard any other Sub do it's important I think to use an amp with true fidelity.

The SW10 harmonizes music notes produced by the mains like no other subwoofer or passive radiator I've ever used. One time in Nashville I had the system in between setups and a client came before the dual SW10 subs were removed from the room. I wasn't there and the system was shown. When I arrived the listener was just coming out of the room and said, those were the best subs ever and ordered a pair. Later that day I was doing something and wanted to make a change so I went behind the room where the electronics were and saw that the subs during the demo were never plugged in at all. I (while laughing) went in the room and played. He was right, those were the best passive subs I had ever heard, and they were truly passive.

to be continued......

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri May 02, 2014 9:35 pm

Hi Michael,

I updated post with pics of x20 and x30. The x20 has speaker and line level inputs, the x30 is line level only. The front panel adjustments are basically the same on both.

The x20 is the best choice for a receiver without variable pre outs to keep volume in sync.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri May 02, 2014 9:39 pm

So the X-20 is in production?

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri May 02, 2014 9:41 pm

Sadly none of the x series is available anymore... Except for sub amps with integrated xovers. Found it on ebay.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri May 02, 2014 9:58 pm

SW10 part 1

The SW10 harmonizes music notes produced by the mains like no other subwoofer or passive radiator I've ever used. One time in Nashville I had the system in between setups and a client came before the dual SW10 subs were removed from the room. I wasn't there and the system was shown. When I arrived the listener was just coming out of the room and said, those were the best subs ever and ordered a pair. Later that day I was doing something and wanted to make a change so I went behind the room where the electronics were and saw that the subs during the demo were never plugged in at all. I (while laughing) went in the room and played. He was right, those were the best passive subs I had ever heard, and they were truly passive.

to be continued......

part 2

As with speakers (the mini 6's are coming along nicely BTW) I don't understand why the fear of free resonance. The clarity and tonality is something to behold. With the SW10 you can hear the effects and support all the way up into the mid high note structures. It's like listening to the violin, then the viola, cello & bass kick in. Even talking about it I'm wanting one or two. Rats I need more rooms  Mad . But alas I must design.

The free resonant satilite sub though is really something. There is not a sub on the planet that plays soft music like the SW10, and for the guy who may be struggling a little with fill in the SW10 makes listening easy. A lot easier to go from one piece of music to the next without a lot of tweaking. I find myself going back and forth on the issue of sub or not. I typically do not like subs but the SW10 is completely different as it really turns the system into a two way (counting the mains as one unit) setup instead of one way, and is not so much as a main speaker then a sub as it is the main speaker then another extension. I guess I'm trying to say that if my main speaker is a two way, than adding the SW10 feels more like an adjustable three way than it does a main and added sub.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri May 02, 2014 10:02 pm

So your saying the world has moved to plate amps with built in crossovers? Hopefully they will have bypasses, or can run independent from the mains.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri May 02, 2014 10:19 pm

Lots of plate amps and a few dedicated subwoofer amps with integral xovers. 

The subwoofer amps appear to be able to run independent .. some have ability to have the amp feed back a signal with cut off low freq.

This sub amp is an end point subwoofer amp with line level inputs.
http://www.paradigm.com/products-current/series=x-series/model=x-300/page=overview



The adjustment pots are hidden behind front panel which appears to attach using magnets.







What seems to be gone are outboard dedicated crossovers like the x20, x30.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri May 02, 2014 10:40 pm

"The free resonant satilite sub though is really something. There is not a sub on the planet that plays soft music like the SW10, and for the guy who may be struggling a little with fill in the SW10 makes listening easy. A lot easier to go from one piece of music to the next without a lot of tweaking."

I think I fit exactly in this category. I struggle to get good even  body and weight in my room.

In these situations where do you normally crossover the sub?
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat May 03, 2014 12:06 am

Hi Toledo

I'm a 80 guy but have played all over the place and all the way up to 250 (with soft music) with the SW10. Honestly though with this sub it may be different for others but for me it kinda plays itself and sounds pretty good at wherever but maybe that's something I do somewhere else in the chain that makes that happen.

I like all music but being a pop/rocker/exploration-rock guy that loves the soundstage first and foremost I think I like that bottom thud, to even slight boom sound. I say that and people might think mushy, but it's more of a tight bump on the kicks, tom toms and bass guitar. Also a little rumbly on the bottom of the piano (thickin), and the bottoms of the stings instead of the tops. The middle to lower harmonics are my favorite.

Where some may focus more on the upper part and maybe hardened strings on a guitar I'm more this.



I design my stuff to tune whatever but when I do it for me I like to hear the body of instruments sorta pop.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat May 03, 2014 12:15 am

So that X-300 is a stereo amp/crossover all in one thing?

Do you have an inside view?

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat May 03, 2014 12:36 am

I think you and I basically have same goal in the sound we wish to hear. If it does not have foundation, everything sounds off and unnatural and tizzy to me.

I like my air and delicacy and detail but without the fundamentals, meh.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat May 03, 2014 1:15 am

Yep, I'm not crazy listening to a system and wondering where the rest of the instrument is.

Like some guys have it so that it looks like a frequency instead of a note attached to an instrument. I've seen a lot of guys do this and when you show them the whole instrument it's kind of a shock to them because they have gotten so use to a sterile sound. After a while I think sterile replaced real in their minds eye. The sound to them became the Hi Fi and not so much the event.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat May 03, 2014 11:36 am


Those of us who with X-30s may have a treasure in our hands.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat May 03, 2014 7:50 pm

Yeah, Sonic, that x30 is getting rare. You should keep an eye out for a spare. I know I am going to be keeping an eye for an extra x20.

I just found a pair of ma700u in really good condition. Going to put one away as a spare.

I normally design systems for the long haul of 10 years or more, so I should be good to go.

What sort of tuning works for the Ma700?
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat May 03, 2014 8:42 pm

You found a MA700, excellent!

http://www.michaelgreenaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=788&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I'm sure there's stuff all over the archives, but when you start to tear it down we'll go through it. Do the usual chassis stuff and snip the ties. Replace the power cord.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sun May 04, 2014 6:39 pm

System update pics.

I mounted Merlins on top of spare stands and placed 13" out from side and 28" from back wall. This is why I keep those old Lovans around ... they always come in handy somehow.

I also deployed an old Energy powered sub from an HT system from late 90s. Surprisingly,  it integrated nicely with fill and can keep up with the dynamics. I am crossing over the sub at 80.

Quick initial impression. Will know more as I let settle and get used to new presentation

The good:
Soundstage is more effortless
Soundstage is taller.
Deeper soundstage
Some parts of the tone are better.


The bad:
Some loss of soundstage center fill. Good example is background audience on live recordings are more present on left/right than center. Merlin max spread is around 7.5'. I am at 8.5'
Some loss of total impact energy but some tone has better body.
Soundstage has a more paint by numbers feel to it, but this is initial impression ... need to live with it for awhile.

And the ugly:
Me

If I am going to go wall mount (or high stands,)  I dont think I will be able to use the Merlins to get what I am looking for. They are very neutral speakers. They rely on upstream components and room placement to deliver their magic. The upstream is great since they react to every tuning change .. the placement not so much .. it is tough finding a good spot for them with limited room I have.

I think a better fit for this room will be fuller sounding monitors that do not suffer from center fill issue when spread too far apart and are not so placement fussy.

Michael, how far have you successfully spread your monitors.

Burnin of FUNAI/Sherwood/cables is progressing with lows and mids fleshing out but highs are still very aggressive. I am around 30-40 hours in.

You can see why I want to move quickly to platforms. Those maple shelves were designed for old system and old way of thinking of isolation with a tad bit of seasoning. Those shelves have very little tone .. rap test reveals it is a low initial tone with a very quick rise and no decay.


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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sun May 04, 2014 10:33 pm

Hi Michael,

I noticed on your thread you talked about tuning each recording.

Do you have any guidelines and examples of recording scenarios that you address by quick variable tuning. What do you generally go to first, etc.. and what adjustments do you make.

Have you had a chance to review my post above about widest you have spread your monitors.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sun May 04, 2014 11:49 pm

hi Toledo

Been outside a lot today and did some posting but now settled a little.

now for your thread coming up....


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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon May 05, 2014 12:02 am

Hi Toledo

All relaxed and listened up Smile . I enjoy watching how my mindset changes from system to system listener to listeners. By looking at the systems I hear things going on, then I put it in context to who I am talking to. I also go into my room and do some listening and in my mind (right or wrong) make my system into a version of the other systems. This may sound completely off the wall, but I've been doing it a long time and I think because I have listened to so many systems in so many conditions that I am able to in some freakish way see into others sound. It is also based on the way the listener describes their sound.

Looking at your latest Pic, I want to say put an EchoTune on the front wall right in the center and tell me what you hear? then Put it on the ceiling 5 feet from the front wall and tell me?

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon May 05, 2014 12:07 am

Toledo says

"Have you had a chance to review my post above about widest you have spread your monitors."

mg

I listen with my speakers extremely wide and I am very close to the speaker plane. I'll be right back with that measurement.

Speakers are 5" from the side walls in a 9' wide room. The center plane of the speakers are 26"-3' from my ears, depending on how I am sitting.

In my rooms and setups in other rooms I have spread my monitors very far apart. I haven't really paid attention to any collapsing that takes place cause when I start to hear this happen I tune the front soundstage pressure zone.

As I will say about all fixed speakers. If they are right on, and right on for that recording, and right on for the listeners ears, they are right on. How often does this happen? The listener would have to answer that, but for me, it doesn't happen often. I've owned 3 pair of Wilson's and 2 pair of Avalon's and 1 pair of Bobby's speakers and the list goes on, but I bring up these 3 as examples cause I don't think any of them would be mad at me, for my statements here. When tuning them in it is clearly the case of tuning the system (including the room) into the speaker. Have I reached great levels of listening with these speakers? At least good levels, and with the right recording great levels, but here's the twist. I take these speakers out of the room and put in any of my own and in a short period of time am able to match the sound almost to the letter. So I wouldn't call any speaker itself of a design quality to be not a good speaker cause I have made great speakers sound great.

however

I did this for a client who visited me at a show in Frankfurt. He wasn't a client at first but an angry man who claimed my being in the hobby was a "disgrace" I think was the word he used. He was really on my case about tuning and said there was no way anything I made could sound anything like the speakers he had and were in the next room that sold for $100,000.00 (a little more really). I put up with this for a day and a half and finally broke. I said lets take a recording of your choice and go listen. He sat in the room with a huge smile on his face, turn toward me and said "do that". We went over to my room and as I disrupted people from listening proceeded to somewhat tune my setup to sound like the one next door. He said "it was identical" when I was done ( I didn't think so but close). Then I looked at him and said "lets tune that song in for the way you like it, forget about the speakers or system, how do you want it to sound?". It was hard to keep the crowd out that was starting to gather, but lets say this, I took an order for Chameleons that day  Smile . I also had a reviewer come in and said he wanted to say in his show report that I had the best sound at the show but, couldn't because I was able to make any sound I wanted.

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Last edited by Michael Green on Mon May 05, 2014 12:56 am; edited 5 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon May 05, 2014 12:08 am

All I have are xlt or squares. Xlt on wall, square for ceiling?

It's funny you mention the ceiling cause I was just looking up there and thinking about a square.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon May 05, 2014 12:21 am

A smart man  Smile  I'll keep posting and look for your results. Try either. Watch for over burn.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon May 05, 2014 1:07 am

Toledo said

"I noticed on your thread you talked about tuning each recording.

Do you have any guidelines and examples of recording scenarios that you address by quick variable tuning. What do you generally go to first, etc.. and what adjustments do you make."

mg

First I think we as listeners have to face the fact that we are in a hobby that is about the recordings, more than a hobby that is about the system, which you caught onto the first day or two. Once we grab onto this then our quest must be about removal. Remove those things in the system that cause blockages to happen. The more we do this the more the system is able to play the bigger picture of the recording. The more we make our systems variable the easier it is to tweak in a sound. It may take some learning, but once that learning is done, it's not all that hard, if the conditions are right.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon May 05, 2014 1:20 am

Square on wall results ...

More clarity, weight to soundstage. Deeper tones than before as if everything shifted down in tone. Tom toms lost some of upper hollowness on some passages but not on others. Complex passages not as overwhelming clutter. Less sibilance. Highs not as aggressive. Seems more 3d and more projection into room.

Center fill doesn't seem much different.
Instruments far left and far right in soundstage don't seem to fully develop tone and notes.

Hard struck small cymbals at end of suppers ready on seconds out sound like crack of a whip instead of shimmer. This may be what they were going for, though...would have to get your take on what you hear. This is the same as before mounting square but maybe with a little more shimmer now.

Will follow up with post with square on ceiling after I let the wall mounted square settle for a day or so and more listening.
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