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 Toledo's system

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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon May 05, 2014 1:52 am

Good thanks

Have you gotten in touch with Harold about Platforms yet? Sounds like your ready, and I would think that FS PZC's are going to want to be of help on the front stage.

When I had Bobby's speakers they seemed like they wanted to be closer together and have the soundstage go around them a couple of feet then drop off. I never really noticed that they wanted to cast I very wide stage if my memory is correct and I had to do a fair amount of room tricks to get them to jump out of their skin. They are very "to the point" sounding and within a fairly contained stage give a lot of clarity. Shimer and splash is not their middle name, but more paint in the fine lines, and sometimes a little on the dark side. They will peek (not so much peek as cluster) if you don't have the upper harmonics spread out. They will not spread the upper harmonics for you except for on some recordings and then they open up nicely.

They have their own sound and I have enjoyed them on the right music, but music that is not tuned in and they will clam up. All speakers of mass do this, and is the reason why some say you need a fair amount of air with these types.

it will be fun to see how far you take them

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon May 05, 2014 9:10 pm

Michael,

You have a very good memory and are spot on with the merlin house sound.

The newer model I have is not as beamy in the upper mids as previous version I owned, but, the between the speakers soundstage and slightly beyond is still present.

I had pretty good luck with Merlin's in bigger rooms, as you allude, due to having room to provide air, but always had that beamy problem with the highs. This little room, not so much luck.

Frankly, I am getting burnt out moving them around trying to even out the tone. I dread moving them knowing it will be weeks of fiddling to get them to sound somewhat decent and tone down the aggressive highs and flesh out the mids. I am talking about 1/4" here and there.

I have been told this is a cabling issue and should use the same cable as the speaker internal wiring. I would rather spend the money on flooring and tuning.

Like you said this varies by recording. Some recordings sound fairly decent, while others...you get the picture.

So ... How them 6s working out fer ya?
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon May 05, 2014 10:07 pm

Follow up to previous post using ceiling mounted square.

Square on ceiling comparison to wall mounted square ...
Soundstage is taller and instrument size is bigger.
More diffuse and more ambience. Everything is bigger.
Tone has leaned out some compared to wall placement.
Instrument projection into room is less, but ambient cues and overall soundstage seem more in the room, if that makes sense.

Highs are not as aggressive and cymbal splash is better. Still getting some phasey response on upper mids.

With square on wall there was more clarity and tone, but seemed somewhat dampened and instruments seemed diminished in size.

Center fill seems better as everything has gotten bigger and left/right seems to join better.

Soundstage width reaches left and right wall, but is still within room boundaries and goes no further.

Overall I like the ceiling better as the ambient cues are increased as is the soundstage size. I will miss the beefed up tone as this is my arch nemesis, but, the platforms and some tuning should help that.

The opened up sound seems more tune able and I can expand on that. The wall mounted square seems to be heading in more of a closed in presentation with obvious problems.

I also like how I can mentally immerse myself into the soundstage better and let my ears explore each instrument and all the little nuances and effects.

Will have to work on improving the clarity and presence.

Once the flooring is in everything should clear up more and not be soaked up by the carpeting.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Tue May 06, 2014 2:58 am

"So ... How them 6s working out fer ya?"  Laughing 

I hear ya. When you know something isn't taking you there, and you need to get there, you need to get there.  Smile 

Hopefully it won't be too long.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Tue May 06, 2014 10:45 am

Yup, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

Since I took the hit in moving the speakers, I figured it was a good time to start investigating the transfer material between speakers and stands.

The results were more dramatic that I thought they would be.

I think the newer merlins are built using a wood pulp material instead of older mdf. They resonate more than older version.

1. With speakers directly on stands and fully grounded, the body, weight and clarity improve dramatically but at the expense of a smaller soundstage.

2. With 3 sticky viscoelastic disks that came with stands, the soundstage is very large but at the expense of body, weight, diffuseness and resultant aggressive highs. The speakers do not ground and are suspended slightly on three points.

3. Tiny bit of blutac in each corner and mushed down to insure grounding of speaker adds some more weight, body, clarity and soundstage is not as small as directly on stands. I think the blutac allows the grounding but keeps the vibrations of speaker from momentarily breaking the ground.

So to summarize...new tuning opportunity .. Need to visit lumber yard to see what kind of wood I can find to use between stands and speakers.

Any suggestions on a full tone species?
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Wed May 07, 2014 1:38 am

Hi Toledo

Yes, pick up a piece of white board.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri May 09, 2014 2:21 am

Hi Toledo

Hows the floor coming along?




 Cool 

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat May 10, 2014 2:46 am

Looking probably at a few weeks out ... Life getting in the way.

Can't wait as flooring will allow much easier movement of speakers as I can shove them around instead of dealing with spikes and carpet .. not fun .. not to mention the better sound.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat May 10, 2014 7:51 pm

The x20 crossover showed up today. It's nice to have much more control over the sub. I can dial in level much more accurately instead of touchy built in level on powered sub.

The phase control is great to integrate the low bass where ever I wish. If I want to push the low mids, I can set crossover level higher and phase the sub forward into the room a bit more .. Lots of control .. Me likey.

The ma700s also showed up. All ready to go when I move forward with passive.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat May 10, 2014 9:38 pm

Hi Toledo

Do the Merlin's feel more open with adding the sub? A lot of times the lower notes will help carry the upper end too. The cutoffs may be in place but the sub still reacts to the full range being created. Do you hear this or are the subs at this point not able to infuence the upper end. Look for bigger halos and at what range.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat May 10, 2014 9:47 pm

I was going to mention that but forgot. The highs definitely feel more open and have more presence and space to them. They have more crispness to them.
I notice this on cymbals and higher guitar notes.
Vocals have a more chestiness to them and can hear reverent cues better from them.
Tom toms have the hollow sound back again.

Using the phase control I can dial in a more 3d feeling to the soundstage which adds body across the entire range.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sun May 11, 2014 10:59 am

Hi Toledo

This is why I talk about sound pressure instead of sound waves in straight lines. When you hear the support "system harmonics" make and you learn to gain control over them things get pretty exciting. Hearing and feeling that pressure brings the music to life and understanding the vibrations the system is making and how they are part of the sound all the way through to the sound in the air is something that goes way past the audiophile theory makers  Laughing . This gets into something that is almost mystical but it makes perfect sense that energies would feed off of each other and the harmonics have such important roles in shaping the sound.

is it onward and upward or upward and onward

how about it's pretty darn cool  Cool 

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sun May 11, 2014 6:21 pm

Onward and upward... Sounds like my soundstage Wink

After 60hrs of burnin finally decided to do some tuning. I have been running the cd pretty loosey goosey and wanted to clear up some soundstage diffusion.

Tightened the top circuit board on CD player a bit and it responded just as I hoped.

Soundstage is more palpable all the way to back and layering is much more apparent. I was worried soundstage might shrink, but, no problems there.

The tuning did highlight an issue with weight of soundstage being a bit more prominent on right side facing the system. The soundstage doesn't seem tilted right, more of the weight, tonality and halos of right sided instruments are richer.

I also am still getting some upper midrange zingers that originate on front right side, crossover in middle of room and end at left back wall.

I will address when flooring and new goodies arrive.

I also need to see if I can do something to cover up the alcove area to help with the left/right weight imbalance.

Having fun ...
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sun May 11, 2014 8:01 pm

Good to see  Exclamation 

Man are you ever going to tear it up when you get your goodies. Look how far you've come without them. It's going to really blow your mind. You'll love the control over tonality.



 Smile 

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon May 12, 2014 8:06 am

Hi Toledo,

Have you tried connecting your passive Sub to X-20 and Receiver? Does it keep sub woofer volume in sync with receiver volume?

I would like to get one if it works as my existing X-30 cannot sync with Receiver  Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon May 12, 2014 9:57 am

Hi hiend,

I have hooked up the x20 to the receiver and then to a powered sub using line level RCA connection. It keeps the sub in sync with the volume.

A passive sub should not be much different as the x20 RCA output will go to the sub amp at the line level.

The hookup is as follows (see pic below)

Receiver speaker B outputs -> x20 speaker inputs -> x20 RCA subwoofer output -> sub line level RCA input (or sub amp RCA input)

Hope you can find one. Good luck.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon May 12, 2014 10:39 am

Hi Toledo,

Is it a brand new set or re-sale set? Where did you bought and how much?
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon May 12, 2014 12:12 pm

Hi Hiend,

It is a used unit I found on ebay.

They are not made anymore  Sad 
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Wed May 14, 2014 8:18 pm

Hey Michael,

Can you post some pics of the rosewood color stained wood. Was this on BP ply or board?

When you have some opinions on if it affects the sound would love to hear about it.

Are you planning on trying it on BP platform and likewise would love to hear the results.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Wed May 14, 2014 10:20 pm

Hi Toledo

Long day  Smile  Harold just left and we got a lot of stuff done. The speakers are in parts of course but we got the stain on and now it's time for the voicing of the wood before they are put together. The light is bad now but I'll see if we can get a fair picture of it tomorrow. The stain of course can be changed but I think it is kinda on the rich side looking. We did it on the BP but will need to try it on the Music ply as well. We're doing water based stain so the voicing I hope comes out well with the water based finish.

The color is leaning more toward brown than red, but when I place it next to walnut it looks red.

I'll get pics for your opinion. I did set the brass bolt on it and the drivers and they looked pretty nice against this color.


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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Thu May 15, 2014 8:32 pm

Hi Toledo

I'll try to get you pics soon. Michael is working on something with the hosting site, so as soon as he gets the ftp up and going I'll post these. Please overlook my bad camera work.

Also this was us doing the stain and when done by the shop it will be them staining and spraying the coats and Michael doing the voicing.

 Smile 
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri May 16, 2014 1:03 pm

Picture of the finish for you Toledo.



The sound here is pretty special!
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri May 16, 2014 7:59 pm

The color does seem a bit brown and dark. It is hard to tell. The camera white balance is skewing it a bit orange/yellow.

Is this stain intended for new 6s or for the platforms and PZC also.

For my room I like your classic cherry look the best for platforms and PZCs.

I have included pics of your old setups with my favorite color looks.

Will have to see which of the looks below match up best with LT redwood.

This is my favorite color for the platforms and PZCs but I dont think this is using BP, correct. The speakers are to die for especially with offset corner trim. Which woods were used in those speakers? You could stare at that grain all day.


For the platforms and PZCs in BP, this is also very nice. Is has a touch of natural cherry feel to it or it more yellow in person?
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri May 16, 2014 10:55 pm

Hi Toledo

Personally stain, any stain is not my favorite. If it were up to me I would just find the grain people like and make the speakers show off their natural self and get darker with time, like in the pics. In those pics of my old place, if you saw the plaforms up close I think you would pick natural over the stain. I'm not planing on using cherry, but it is beautiful. Now the natural Cherry could be made back in wisconsin, but I'm not sure how well it would hold up to what I have been putting wood through here. Last thing I want is to have a bunch of cherry curing here and hear that horrible poping sound  Laughing . The Pine is quite a bit lighter in weight than the cherry, and the lighter woods have the lower tone I like and hold up better in curing. However who knows what is going to happen when we introduce the products on a bigger scale, people may want different woods and finishes. How I'm going to voice them all will be interesting. I understand these are better than the others, but I'm selfish when I find the perfect tone. At that point it takes on it's own beauty. So for me I'm staying with what I like the sound of the best and let the wood speak for itself. Now with the Music Ply there is more latitude. Birch comes in tons of grains. The speakers you are looking at were poplar ply and this was my fav up until I found the birch I now call "music ply". The speakers back in the 2000's were either a Poplar Ply, Birch Ply, or a low mass Particle board (cherry). When I moved here and found all this lovely sounding wood that I was able to go even more full range, I left the other wood behind. I'm not saying that it can't be used but it would not be the super low tone stuff I'm using now.

I would imagine other woods will be introduced into the mix, but for now I want to stay focused on the line up of woods I've fallen in love with over the last couple of years.

So this gets back to looks for you. Keep in mind that the 6 is going to be made in both music ply and hardwood. The music ply we could find you some very sexy grains that would be like the pics your looking at. The ply also will have a seam. I haven't decided on the wood yet, but I'm getting warm  Smile . The hardwood 6's I was not planing on putting in a seam, but this may change once we meet the wood workers. My pair though at least at first are going to be butted ends. Again that might change but the first order of biz is the sound.

the platforms

Again personally I think the B pine next to the redwood looks hot, but if you or others are going to need a stain then we are going to have to work on this till we find something that looks sweet. The rosewood stain looks much better in person than in that photo, and that us doing it and not the woodshop. I was going to say it's not so hot but went down and brought a piece up while I was writing this, and have to say, it's not bad, but I still like natural. And I'm guessing natural edges out the stain by a little margin sound wise, but the pieces I have here are pretty sweet sounding so far.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri May 16, 2014 11:13 pm

So the second picture of the speaker platforms/rack is natural BP with a poly finish that has aged?
Likewise the studio monitors are natural with finish and age?
If so, I agree they have have a very nice look to them and have aged very nicely.

I don't want to consider any other woods. BP and redwood it is for the platforms.
I think my use of "natural cherry" is inaccurate. I am referring to the color is cherryish and I like that look.

What about the PZCs? How are they finished.

I guess I am confused since every PZC I have seen has a cherryish color to it. Are these BP or cherry wood?
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