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 Toledo's system

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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:39 pm

And that's how begins. First it's try these goofy ideas and be amazed, then it's looking at all those parts and wondering how much control we really have. How much interactive energy is there? Then we start to look at the landscape of our vibratory layouts. "vibravory" a very important word. This part is doing this and it is that far from that part doing that. All of a sudden we realize that the real estate can do more than the circuit itself. Case and point. If you look at Bill333's latest adventure, he leaves out one detail. The little $70 amp beat out one that cost many times more. When he was talking to me about these two I told him I thought the lesser one would probably beat the other. I based this on the real estate of the two amps and not the circuit.

I am not like others designers in this industry. I give a lot more respect to the mainsteam parts that are being mass produced. I've seen the production up close of the audiophile parts and quite frankly do not see them having the upper edge in manufacturing. They are made in fewer amounts and that runs the price up, but if you look at the factories making the parts the mass produced parts manufacturing has come a tremendous way. They are at least on even par. The audiophile folks I feel bend the rules just a little to make themselves look of more value but this is not the case especially in the last 10 years. Audiophiles are still seeing faceplates in their minds eye and making judgements that are not very founded.

Another example, take a look inside of the unit I use Sherwood 4105. There is nothing mid fi about this piece. You could look at the fact it doesn't have 5 way binding post, but really that is just a buzz word along with banana plug. They mean nothing when it comes to sound. I personally prefer the sound of the clips.

Here are some of the things that makes the 4105 tunable to me, can the Manley go this far or further?



Looks like two different worlds doesn't it? The question I ask myself every time is do I really want to distroy something that because of the mass of the materials may not go as far as something simple? For myself I did distroy a few before being convinced the simple route takes me a lot closer to what I want and like. I've seen lots of guys try the distroy route and I think all most all of them do simple now, with the occational journey back to mass land only to come back to the basics again. Not everyone but most. For me I could care less what gets me there, I just need to be tuned. At the same time, learning is everything, and I have learned much by watching others and what they do. One of the things I like about the tune is, it almost feels like having my own systems all over the world. I've never met a bunch of guys so into their craft, and feel like I can depend on their ears as my own. It's like being on tour with a band is the best way I can relate. After the 3 or 4th practice you know where everyones going to go.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:11 am

Thanks for the suggestions on amp.
I have already opened up the bottom and cracked the circuit board screws.

Was following your thread and saw your new adventures with Selling England. You dawg! I can't even imagine what a soundstage that size would be like and have even tone.

I am still fighting with simple speaker placement closer to side walls in preparation to elevate them. I move them an inch here, an inch there trying find a good spot.

I need to have perfectly symmetrical arrangement from side walls and equal distance to listening position for the Merlin's to gel the soundstage. They also have to be perfectly level or tilted exactly the same. Otherwise the soundstage collapses and if off by 1/4" the sound gets ragged. Add spikes to the equation and loads of fun Wink

The 30-40" swath I have available really limits my options to have full bodied even tone and also good soundstage.

I agree that the best option will likely be satellites for soundstage and hopefully decent mids and above. A sub will provide foundation support.


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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:16 am

Here are shots of my dac that might fit closer to your acid test for tuning. I have cracked transformer screws, circuit boards and removed stock feet. I have a wood block on power transformer and three wood blocks underneath. Need to get rid of all the shrink wrap.





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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:18 pm

Michael, what do you think of this yamaha ax700u for tuning. It looks like there is sort of cover on the trannie, though. What are you looking for in good sounding board material and how do you check? use a wooden dowel to rap on it?

I found him at my neighbor's curbside, and had it repaired.

Google has more images.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:58 pm

Man, I'm pumped Exclamation 

First I have no doubt your going to get the big stage and when you do we'll have a blast comparing notes and you can show me things I'm missing and vice versa.

Second, time to go spend that $24 and pick up the FUNAI player. http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t168-magnavox-dvd-player

The Yamaha is a little busy but the circuit board does look (from what I can see) like a fairly tunable type.

Here's the best thing for me though. As you are working on each piece describe the sound to me so I can get inside of the systems flow. By hearing what your hearing and seeing what you have we can find the path together. I'm going to guess that the FUNAI is going to move you passed the DAC (not stock but a little tuned). We are probably also going to want to make plans for some LTR Blocks in the near future even if it is only a few so I can hear what you have.

Also have you finished the wood for your rack? If you haven't might I suggest contacting us about a finish.

Oh, one more thing, have you told me what part of the country you are from? If you are finishing stuff I can take a look at your areas conditions for you. If it runs into trade secrets I'll have to stay quiet (gotta eat) but I'll help as much as I can.

I'll see if I have time to do a draw up on the Yammy later.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:35 pm

Thanks Michael.

I am in your back yard, Phoenix.

I was reading your recent posting on CerchiaMusic thread and your comments have highlighted exactly my experience with "high end" over the last 25 years since I "upgraded" my mid-fi system.

BTW, welcome Rick...you have already enriched the place.

This quote sums it up for me...
"Well, I'm pretty sure this is not your ears however you and I suffer the same fate and that is we are sensitive to harmonic structures, which I guess is a good thing on one end but a bad thing cause if the harmonics are out of balance it drives us crazy. For me when this happens I hear a buzzing, almost shattering sound. When I tune the harmonics back in line everything smooths out again and I can hear (and feel) the separations."

This is precisely the problem I have always had. It seems I am very sensitive to this as well. I always attributed it to bad room setup, poor recordings, digital vs vinyl, etc. Except I don't think I ever truly straightened things out and everything smooths out!

I actually took a 5 year hiatus from audio due to burnout chasing my tail trying to get back to a semblance of the sound and enjoyment I got from my midfi vinyl system.

I only recently got back into audio last November and bought new equipment. Boy I wish I knew then what I know now.

I took the manley amp out and am using the Yamaha as we speak. I really don't like that manley especially the variance due to heat issues. I will miss the tonal nuance but you have said that you can get sand amps to sound like tubes Wink

Charting a new course... Anybody want to buy a manley Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:11 pm

good moves!

Phoenix, oh yeah, we can make some great tones there. Being in the desert is the way to go  Idea 

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:12 pm

Michael, if this were your room and starting from scratch, what would you do in regards to racks/platforms, electronics, cabling, tuning blocks/wood/cable grounds/etc, speakers/sub, stands? Don't hold me to this, but, I doubt I will every get to the point of complete disassembly of components onto wood, but, I don't want to limit my options either. We can discuss full treatment using PZCs later as this would be a natural progression.

I don't ever envision having more than a cd as source and ability to drive a sub if needed. Keep in mind the limited 40" of depth I have to play with.

Food for thought as I am pondering starting over from scratch. I am concerned that with my left over pieces from older systems (everything from racks through cabling) I will endlessly apply them and drive myself crazy.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:55 pm

Hi Toledo

let's take another look

front



back



right side



left side



I would do this



2 MGA Mini Monitors (hardwood)
1 SW10 Music Ply
3 platforms
sherwood 4105
FUNAI player
1 pair picasso
bare essence cable
8 LTR Blocks
Cable grounds (if needed)
2 RTD2 (RoomTune Deluxe ll)
Speaker mounts

WOW Exclamation 

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:22 am

The one thing I would meassure though is how much space do you have between the front of the sofa and the work area closest/desk? I do this to see if there is an extreme nearfield placement possibility.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:49 am

Wow,is right.

The short left side wall between door and closet area is 48".
With door fully open, 17" of the wall remain exposed.

The sofa is 7" out from back wall. Front edge of sofa is 4" from opening of closet area.

I like the feel of the diagram, but the roomtune deluxe placement is kind of clunky right in middle of traffic zone. Do they need to be spiked? I understand need for them, but are there other options. How tall are they.

Be aware of the wall switch on left side may limit placement of the wall mounts. Also how do you envision arriving at ideal height without some flexibility of placement. Do you make wall mounts or use third party.

The sub is passive, correct. How would this be driven?

All wood can be stained, correct. I would probably go for cherry perhaps to match decor.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:04 am

The floor standing RoomTune likes spikes but it's your choice on how to use them. They come with but are removable. The new RTD2 are framed in wood, very attractive. They are 48" high. If you didn't go with them we would need to get tricky on the ceiling maybe, but being creative is the name of the game. The speaker brackets we will also need to be creative with. Give me the measurements of exactly where that switch is will you.

Yes the sub is passive, I should have put this in there, oops (always something). I recommend the X 30 paradigm crossover with any number of amps. Pretty easy to drive.

The staining is between you and Harold, I just work here  Laughing . I do everything natural but staining has been done.

Keep in mind the new lines are just now getting ready to roll out so there will be a wait. Harold is coming in again in May to finalize some mg/workshop arrangments. We're taking me out of the shop, except for some custom voicing stuff I would think.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:30 am

The wall switch center is 25" from back wall and 50" off floor.
There is 11" from left edge of switch to closet opening.

Are the mini monitors the "mini mods" I see mention of on tuneland.

What are the studio 5s.

I think the roomtune deluxe will be ok. They give me flexibility of placement to tune.

Good to see they are giving you a little leave time ... Just don't go AWOL on us Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:36 pm

This may be a dumb question but how do you connect the 4105 to the crossover?

Tape out? Isn't tape out a fixed output so how does the subwoofer volume stay in sync with receiver volume? Or will receiver volume and crossover level need to be set each time volume is changed?

As you can tell, I have never used an outboard crossover.


It also appears the X30 is longer made.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:18 pm

Hi Toledo

You might have to ask Hiend001 how he is hooking up the sub with his.

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t169-hiend001-s-system

He has this same system (with 60's).

The studio 5's rocked! They were my studio mastering monitors. Unfortunately the woofer was discontinued and I in the meantime of looking for drivers found some 6.5" that I wanted to build around instead.

Harold and I are making the new products one step at a time. There for a while I was in a "mercy of the workers" trap. I being a designer (maybe a little on the weird side) see the vision and hear the sound but translating this to a woodworker/finisher/stuck mentality type doesn't necessarily work  Laughing Laughing Laughing . That deserved 3 laughing guys. This has cursed me for some time now and I and the tunees have suffered. I've tried to do the wood working myself but where my skill level as a voicer and designer may be some what up there the wood working skills are "hide he's at the table saw"  Laughing . I think the long road of going from a factory in amish country to rediscovering sound in the desert is one of miracles. I don't regret the learning process but am a little sad that I wasn't able to be around for High End Audio at a time when I think maybe they got off track and maybe I could have helped in not letting this happen. I was having fun with Herman Miller, SUNY, the Nashville scene and other studios and took my eye off of what the audiophile part of all this was doing. I thought when RoomTune and MGA Audiopoints, the clampraks and tunable speakers came out everyone was getting the message "audio is tunable". I was wrong, high end audio just continued right along with their component collecting and dampening and over building as if I never existed. I think on top of it they also became even more guilt driven and $$$ power playing.

But now that I have teamed with Harold the dots are already starting to connect again.

We have talked about the mini mod but after Harold's visit we are like, lets not worry about a mod. The tunable line needs to become for real. That means everything. A total tunable system. First he took the production of the RT Pillows as you know, next the RTD2 floorstanders, and Platforms. At the same time I get to redo the speakers. The 60's will be about the same as they (the music ply 60's) are really very close to the perfect speaker. A Music Ply 6 is on the way to replace the 5 and the mini mod. We will have to see but there may be a 6 in between the mini monitor and 60 but first the world needs a true full range mini monitor and I'm listening to it, well part of it. So I would say within the next 6 months we are going to see some very nice speakers appear. I will be hand voicing these bad boys and we can pretty much start them whenever we have time. I'm working on Music Ply but there is also the hardwoods. Oh My, the hardwoods. But here's the thing if a person is not going to treat the hardwoods like an instrument, I would go with the Music Ply's. Just wooking with the wood on the hardwoods has been really something. Both the new Music Ply's and the hardwoods are going to indroduce musical flavors that I have not yet see or heard in the hobby yet so this will be something. The sounds we are getting from the curing we are doing is so close to the sound of real instruments that both Harold and I sit hear laughing when listening. This is completely different from the high end sound in that you can clearly hear inbetween the notes. You can not only see the halos for example but can see the variable stage from the body of the instrument to the halo to the room and where they all meet. I want to make some of these and get them over to the tunable room in Chicago or when Harold does his room or even build one here.

When you asked what I would do at your place this is why I had an answer so quick  Smile it's exactly what I'm working on.

It's nice to have had the full line to learn off of but it's even more exciting when you can put your own Stradivarius twist to things.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:42 am

Exciting times ahead!

When you say the hard wood need to be treated like an instrument, does that mean treating the finish periodically? How does the desert dryness affect this scheduled maintenance?

Update on system using yammie...
I have done the simple screw cracking, removed the wire shackles and mounted on wood blocks and some wood on trannie. It responds to every change as expected with larger soundstage, more harmonics and air, fuller body and warmth. And this is with only about 4hrs of settle time.

When I opened the yammie, I noticed all the electrolytic caps have leaked. She is just too old.

Will get the Sherwood and FUNAI this week.

I am very excited by new path I am taking. Working and trying to tune the high end pieces I have leaves me with the feeling of "been there, done that."

The new tuning path feels like the sky is the limit.

I have removed all high end pretenses from system and gone to the smallest gauge power cords, power strip (instead of isolation transformer ... Air conditioner gives me transient spikes), etc... in preparation to go low mass.

Lots of egg cracking going on with some good and some bad. But, with even my limited experience with tuning and how things respond, I know this can be cleared up .. no sweat.. just fun again.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:47 pm

Your The Man!

Remarkable isn't it!

Every time I start to tell someone about the truth I get this queasy feeling. Kinda like a date "she's either going to like me or hate me feeling". Telling people that something they have been a part of for most of their listening life is not what it is "cracked" up to be is strange, but Once they do take even that first step and can deal with it, it truly is "skies the limit".

I think I've told you that I've been writing on the Stereophile forum attempting to shed light and be a help to those who might be stuck. Well, after reading some of their reply posts I sometimes have to go into the listening room and chill. Someone saying that rock doesn't have a soundstage and they claim to be a High End listener for 50+ years makes me shiver to the bone. These guys are all over multi-track and stereophonic till they can't get their systems to sound right then all of a sudden their purist claiming direct recording is the only legitimate way to go. Well, if they want to go strictly Mono and have a high compression system that can handle the dynamics than yeah, they can be called the mono purist of the bunch, boring but yeah. As soon as they put on that second speaker though all bets are off and they are entering the wonderful world of illusion. At that point they can blow all the smoke they want, they can either get a soundstage or not. I think personally the word illusion was the wrong one chosen when describing stereo though because it is a very real event and can be specific down to the fraction of an inch. Stereo is no more an illusion than sight, but it's a young industry and the engineer types needed to figure out a way to explain it to themselves.

Breaking away from the stuck is the biggest move a stereo listener can make. It's shocking how far stereo equipment has come and the thought that a Mid or Low end piece can beat the tar off of high dollar one is where I think a lot of guys get their pants in a tangle. We who tune see things in the world of vibrations and variable movements and the High End (for now) sees things as a fixed "here's the sound I have" world. We are the Edisons, and they are the Amish. No offense to the Amish, they have just chosen to stay in a time, as the high end audiophile has chosen to do the same. Making your system into a musical instrument is something they can't get around because they have not given enough credit to the audio signal and the parts that make it. A couple of cracked screws away and they can't make themselves do it.

You my friend are going to be amazed at your talents as a listener. You will be able to shape things that you knew all along must be on the recordings but you were never able to get there before. Now you will be able to go where ever you wish, and with the greatest amount of clarity you have ever experienced.

I'm extremely happy for you!

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:57 pm

the hardwood speaker question

My only real fear with the hardwood speakers are that if someone takes them in and out of environments they will crack just like an instrument will. For sound reasons they are done with water based finishes and if exposed to extremes they are going to act like wood does. The Music Ply is much more forgiving.

As for you making a choice, I would doubt that you would have any problems beyond what I have here, being in the same basic desert.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:59 pm

Proud new owner of FUNAI and 4105.

For anyone thinking of getting the 4105, you may want to get it soon or stock a replacement. It appears it has been discontinued by Sherwood. There are some on amazon and newegg. Amazon is now 2 stock items lower Wink

There is a 4109 that has built in phono stage and beefier binding posts. That's all I know about it.

Listening to the FUNAI "little squirt" as we speak. I will christen him "big squirt" when he "grows up".

How long of a christening does he need before I should open him up and do the baptism?

Update :

That little guy definitely punches above his weight. It is way beyond what I was initially expecting from 2 hrs of breakin.
Just sandwiched between maple shelf and piece of wood on top to give it body, there is already a believable soundstage that is wall to wall and I sense it is already trying to wrap around a bit as it projects forward.

He has a bit of a cold and congestion but he will be up and running soon.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:43 pm

Breaks my heart about the 4105  No No No 

This is the problem with not having my own amp. And if their doing one that is more beefed up who knows. Drats and Rats. Oh well keeps life interesting.

I would go ahead and start on the FUNAI anytime, unless you are interested in the before and after. What wood do you have to put underneigth and what is the wood sitting on? This player is going to sound like whatever it touches so you'll be wanting to get your voicing chops out.

pics while your doing stuff is a good thing

 Wink happy times are here Exclamation

The FUNAI strikes again  Exclamation  Don't forget to put your comments about him on the magnazox thread. People need to take this baby serious and I feel they get more comfortable each time they see another FUNAI convert.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:50 pm

All I have are myrtle blocks. They will sit on the maple shelves. I need to put in an order for the LTR and some other toolbox woods. Any recommendations.

Also I updated my earlier post ... not much, just how impressive the FUNAI is out of the box.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:24 pm

I'm about to start a batch of Blocks so I would say 8 of those or 9 if your going to use one for the transformer. I would also think that you need to get one layer away from the maple "one note" that might drift in. But you could wait on the blocks if you want and see how that goes. I like the LTR on top of brazilian pine.

here's my setup


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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:43 pm

I should have mentioned that I am going to go with what you suggested for my room but do it in chunks.

I am thinking for initial transition, I will go with platforms for the FUNAI and 4105 and enough blocks underneath and some for seasoning on top. I will also need Picasso IC and bare essence. The speaker cables are going to be tough on the merlin side since they use cardas lock down binding posts that require spades or an eyelet type connector. There are thin tinned copper eyelet available, just need to find them.


Once you have new speaker line up and running will transition to mini monitor and sub.

I think I saw on the maggie thread that you are using a magic wood platform and if you don't mind will steal your setup. What type of platform/setup do you recommend for 4105?
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:48 pm

These are the binding posts

http://www.cardas.com/cpbp.php
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:55 pm

You can still fit bare wire in those posts right?

With my setup the FUNAI opened up so much with the LTR Blocks that I took out the mini CD Platform and set it directly on the Top Tuning Board, but you'll have to see how it sounds in your setup.

Step by step is fun I think, no hurry. I might pick up some wood though so it's drying nicely. We had a great dry (curing season didn't we?) Going to be terrible for fires but sure was good for voicing wood.

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