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 Toledo's system

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:42 pm

That's an interesting question. Plastic vs Cork. Well the plastic is Termite free for sure, and I do have some experience with this sound. The cork on the other hand might be dead but have a warmth to the sound. Either one is going to take the carpet by a long shot.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:56 pm

Any opinion on the texture or most likely no difference other than leveling issues for spikes.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:43 pm

I would go with flat for sure. With this size of room and what you have in there already go with the fewest amounts of surface variables to work around. The tune products will take care of the energy so you will want to try to let them do their job without a bunch of odd surfaces. You may at the end put in a thud rug but I wouldn't make the floor something your stuck with that you have to work around.

Your room is going to gain about 2db as soon as you make the change at that's a great thing.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:21 pm

So while looking for flooring are you doing some listening as well? I would like to know how things are beginning to settle in.





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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:38 pm

I have been mainly letting the FUNAI burn in after doing the mods.
I have removed case, was going to loosen screws but they are already pretty loose ( do you loosen yours), took plastic collar thingie off power cord and removed rubber feet.

I saw your post on cerchiamusic thread about power cord swap and you need to solder on the wire, correct? What type of solder do you use.

When I first read it it sounded like you could just attach it, but, I don't see how.

I have it resting on 4 myrtle blocks just at the very corners of the wood with the blocks straight onto the maple.

Things are starting to smooth out and more flesh on the bone. It seems there are good days, bad days but this could be power grid issues or just varying burn in which I have had with other components.

Soundstage has deepened a bit, but not width or height.

Things are going to be in flux for a while as I am expecting the 4105 on Monday which will put me completely in burn in mode.

Regarding the flooring, the core is mdf. Did you come across other types of cores and what did you use.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:08 pm

Hi Toledo

Yes, the cord gets soldered. I like cheap Radio Shack solder. Some of the more esoteric types shift the pitch. I like to start pitch and tone wise in the middle or the basement (meaning low tone) . If you start with things that are higher pitch you can only tune up, so I end up using parts and pieces that have a high degree of tone and vibration.

Be pretty liberal with loosening the screws during breakin. The looser the better cause this will end up with the fullest range. For me it takes about 7 days for the FUNAI to start doing it's thing (constant play). Sometimes out of the box is not bad and sometimes horrible, but 7 days and much more, and it starts to take off. Parts are parts and sometimes in anything you'll have a part that will seem likes it's hanging on for ever and won't burn in, then all of a sudden baam, there it goes and it's off to the races. I'm so use to hearing this that it doesn't bother me but if I had only done this a few times it might make me wonder. When your hearing the sound come and go that's just parts burning. One part will start to burn in and open up then this will cause the next part in the chain to block up. Very normal. I hate to scare people but it really does take a lot of time for parts to burn in and it really never stops. a lot of guys won't admit it but they have components that go in and out of good sound often. I kinda roll my eyes when I hear about people who arrive. If we saw a picture of their system we would laugh. They usually look like they were in a store instead of being used. These pics crack me up. You can tell exactly what kind of sound they are getting and what problems they have, but by talking to them you would think they have the absolute sound. Oh, brother the bull I could share  Laughing about this industry  Laughing 

The flooring I got when you snapped it in two looked like cardboard. There's lots of better sounding stuff but this was the quick fix, and proved to be better than the tile. If termites weren't the problem you could go a lot more high end. Of course the cost will go 5 to 10 times up too. But if you do want to go more high end let me know where your going to get it and the model number and maybe I can go look at it.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:24 pm

Right now I probably only have about 10-15 hours of play time so lots to go. 7days ain't bad, I thought it would be longer.

Once I get the 4105, I can let it play all day long. Right now, I don't trust leaving this old amp on when I am not home.

Will get more info on the flooring to you.

Happy listening....
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:56 am


Hi Toledo

Sonic agrees with you, I won't leave my gear powered up when I am away from my dwelling. Especially with such open gear, we never know do we? So my routine is a cold start, then warm up with a couple of CDs then its analog.

Sonic

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:51 pm

Well got rid of last remaining high end piece in system... Replaced the interconnect with a cheap Kimbercable to make do until I get the Picasso.

Michael, do you think I should loosen the braid on Kimbercable?

I also bought some unterminated bulk kimber speaker cable that I can use with 4105 speaker terminal clips and test out bare connections to merlin. Will also switch out with michaels secret sauce when I get them.

Will snip off the barrel connectors on IC to reduce blockage. Right now, the barrels are simply loosened to reduce tension.

With just IC in system notice more clarity, body and bass even with no burnin.

Also, I forgot to mention in last post about the FUNAI almost completely eliminates annoying sibilance that drove me crazy on old system.

Can't wait to start working with 4105 and need to brush up on my soldering skills for the cord swap on FUNAI.

How does the power cord swap work with the 4105?
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:32 pm



I solder to the posts.

Then I put mini ends on to plug into the wall, but you didn't hear that from me, cause I can't recommend this.

here's more pics



above are the mini ends

On the interconnect. I personally like the loose braid sound over tight.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:05 pm

Is that a standard sized LTR under trannie? If so, it looks like it was made to order...how prophetic.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:55 am

Yep, that's a standard size. Got lucky. I have mine turned the other direction though.






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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:07 pm

Hi Michael

What is the difference between having the Low Tone Redwood block facing one way or the other in this application? Does inverting the block make a difference...why should it?

Sonic



Last edited by Sonic.beaver on Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Redundant phrase in text)
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:19 pm

I would surmise that it controls how much affect the wood gives under the trannie in the same way a component sits on the corners instead of completely on top of the wood. Although Michael has mentioned turning blocks does change sound...magnetic field interaction perhaps.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:01 pm

Last night around midnight I had a good amount of float, at least as how I understand it.

I think I am back to the old days of late night listening when the power is so clean. Remember those days, when you would stay up real late and have listening sessions to get cleanest power.

I loosened the braid on the kimber and also further loosened screws on amp trannie to the point it could be moved easily by hand.

The sound immediately jumped forward of speaker plane and I was rewarded with instruments floating in their own space and rendered in a seemingly effortless quality. Harmonics  and halos were rich. It was not 3d wrap around but more bloom and 3 dimensions to each instrument from behind speaker plane and slightly forward. It completely filled the room and you did not have to listen intently to hear the harmonics, etc.. they made themselves aware. It was so effortless with no restraint ... Mesmerizing.

Fast forward to this morning and after I decided to remove footers from amp to lessen mass and put back on wood blocks, it has gone back to behind speaker plane  Evil or Very Mad I did also loosen some additional screws I did not notice on side of amp hidden from view and also loosened screws holding the heat sinks. It could be that ..

I also need to check to make sure trannie did not slide back into a held position since I had to turn the amp upside down. When I turned it on after the changes, the trannie did not make the energizing rattle it did last night. It is on right now, and I ain't putting MY hands in there Wink any volunteers ?

Couldn't leave well enough alone, but a mans gotta play, right!

Oh well ..
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:31 pm

Here's a pic of 4109. Looks pretty much the same as 4105 with addition of binding posts and phono card.

For you nuts and bolts types, here is an analysis of unit broken down.

http://greyghost.mooo.com/rx4109takeapart/
Michael, take a look at disclaimer at bottom of the page linked above and if you feel uncomfortable, please remove the link and photo.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:45 pm

Hi Toledo

I enjoyed reading this, thanks. I don't think they would mind that we share their info since we are keeping it intact, but if they see this and have a problem they can contact me and we'll do what ever is needed. I look at it as sharing their good reporting and giving them credit. Good job Exclamation 

I would agree that folks that are doing things they shouldn't are probably the ones that are causing any breakdowns. I've tortured a few of these now without a problem.

I have to say that everytime I see one of these takin apart the words high end jump out at me. Is this not a thing of beauty.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:39 pm

I enjoyed reading it also. I love this stuff and it is a thing of beauty. I also enjoyed his quirky writing style.

Any comments on my post prior to the 4109. Do you think this may be burnin issue with FUNAI or should I try to undo some things. Given that the good effects were immediate after power on last night and then gone after I messed with stuff this morning, I suspect the more recent mods may be to blame, but I have tightened up the heat sinks again and made sure trannie was loose and not stuck, but no return to last nights magic.

There are a few variables also in where I plugged back into power strip and how tight I inserted the ICs and the exact placement of the wood blocks under amp. I did not make a mental note last night of these items.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:02 pm

Hi Toledo

I'll take this post apart because there are a few great parts to it. So glad to have you here BTW. It's great when a few tunees are going at it at the same time.  It's like the minds meld.

Toledo

"I think I am back to the old days of late night listening when the power is so clean. Remember those days, when you would stay up real late and have listening sessions to get cleanest power."

mg

Yes, I post about this and several times stayed up through the periods so I could tells folks when my grids changed at my place. I think this is a very important part to making tuning judgements. Excellent ears my friend Exclamation

Toledo

"I loosened the braid on the kimber and also further loosened screws on amp trannie to the point it could be moved easily by hand.

The sound immediately jumped forward of speaker plane and I was rewarded with instruments floating in their own space and rendered in a seemingly effortless quality. Harmonics  and halos were rich. It was not 3d wrap around but more bloom and 3 dimensions to each instrument from behind speaker plane and slightly forward. It completely filled the room and you did not have to listen intently to hear the harmonics, etc.. they made themselves aware. It was so effortless with no restraint ... Mesmerizing."

mg

I would like to share this with Stereophile, if you don't mind. I won't use your name of course, but I truly believe this is the kind of stuff that can change the hobby and helps thousands of listeners out there. I want to help people so bad and can feel the pain of those sitting there stuck and not knowing what to do. I get calls emails and messages and have for so many years from audiophiles who want to move forward but they feel so beated down by the peers and guilt that comes from the hobby telling them to climb a ladder to no where. So sad. All of these guys are so close and don't even know it. They could set their systems in the closet and spend almost nothing to pass up their reference sound so easy it would make their heads spin.

Toledo

"Fast forward to this morning and after I decided to remove footers from amp to lessen mass and put back on wood blocks, it has gone back to behind speaker plane   I did also loosen some additional screws I did not notice on side of amp hidden from view and also loosened screws holding the heat sinks. It could be that ..

I also need to check to make sure trannie did not slide back into a held position since I had to turn the amp upside down. When I turned it on after the changes, the trannie did not make the energizing rattle it did last night. It is on right now, and I ain't putting MY hands in there any volunteers ?

Couldn't leave well enough alone, but a mans gotta play, right!"

mg

Our systems are musical instruments. You learning how much so is step one. Now you get to become the master telling the system what to do and when. For me it's one of the funest parts to this tuning hobby.  study  I have become a student of my systems and they many times are the teacher till I find these hidden parts.

Your system will start talking to you. You saw the post by Hiend001 with the blocks yesterday, well when I first saw the pic I thought 3 things. One the blocks were too closed in, two I thought they may need another layer of transfer, and three I saw the tuning washers on the PZC's and was wondering what other parts of the system were now being affected by the change with the blocks.

What's interesting in this method of listening is how one part plays off of the other parts. I can't wait till Hiend finds the answers and shares them, and I bet in those answers will be something that the blocks did to the vibratory change in the whole system and not just limited to the area of where the CD Player is. Acoustical, mechanical and electrical all play off of each other and as you make the connections between the 3, things really come to life.

This my friend is the hobby of High End Audiophile Listening, which goes way further than the old hobby of plug and play.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:52 am

I am starting to address power in the room.

Currently the room has lots of digital items plugged into various sockets in room with obvious consequences.

I have 2 printers, a cable modem, wireless router and wireless backup file server all plugged into a large power strip and into one outlet.

I have a Mac and powered speakers on another socket.

I also have a wall wart on a third socket powering a cable tv amplifier/repeater since the cable reaching this room does not have strong enough signal and we get poor internet.

All 3 of these outlets are on 3 separate walls.

So me gets to thinking how to isolate these devices. This room is the nerve center for our home network and cannot be relocated to other room. The cable repeater only works in this room.

I am wondering if a UPS (uninterruptible battery supply) will isolate the digital hash that is undoubtedly polluting the lines.

If the units are all receiving power directly from battery and the battery is charged from wall, do you think this will isolate it?

I could unplug all items and see if it makes a difference, but, I have found the quickest way to have a family meeting is to disconnect the internet Wink man they come running .....

Update:

Went out and got a UPS and it has helped considerably. I hooked up all printers, routers, backup file server and cable modem to the battery outlets (the other outlets are direct ac and only provide surge protection.) The leanness and edginess I have been living with is reduced significantly and soundstage is more focused. It still has way more room for improvement, though. It is easier to hear the blockage in the system now as opposed to hearing through the haze that used to mask this and left one wondering ...what do I fix.

Good use of 80 bucks.

APC BN600G

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:20 pm

Hi Toledo

So your saying all the other stuff is plugged into this unit and the stereo is separate?

Have you checked to see what all is on that circuit? Are you able to check on the route of the cable?

How far away from the circuit box are you?

Have you done any reading yet on how I tune circuit panels?

If not a hassle, can I see the panel?

hope you had a good day  Smile I was watching the weather to see if I can uncover the wood out here or not and bring the wood I have inside out. It's getting to that time of year that I can leave wood out over night. Not this week though, but maybe next if I can get the lows up in the 70's or close to.

all about the voicing  Wink 

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:08 am

At this point all the network and printer stuff is on the UPS which is plugged into the right side wall (from listening area)

The Mac/powered speakers/sub is plugged directly into left side wall along with cordless phone home station. The Mac and speakers have been unplugged for now. I will get another ups for them and the phone.

There are several rooms I think that are on this circuit. The panel is as about as far as you get from this room across the house and is on outside wall.

Tracing the cable is tough since this part of house has flat roof with no crawl space. Running dedicated lines would be quite interesting. You should have seen them running the cable line, they had a hellish time just getting the fish to work

I get an occasional transient pop from what I think are the air conditioners or some other appliance 

I also have dimmers throughout house.

I have read many of your posts on circuit panels, but, to tell you the truth, this is something I would prefer to leave alone. I am sure you understand my reservations.

I will get some photos up on the panel, though. Maybe something simple could be done.


Today was wonderful. Yesterday, I was running round chasing everything that was blowing around. What a day.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:12 am

yep, it was windy

yeah, let me take a look at the panel

My first house here had the outside panel and I was able to tweak the heck out of it cause it was hanging on the outside of the house.

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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:31 am

Michael, what sort of changes have you noticed with the FUNAI as it burns in?

Have you ever experienced sudden soundstage collapse?

Last night as I was listening to Seconds Out during a complex passage, the soundstage suddenly recessed and lost body and weight. I was listening intently and almost jumped out of my seat when this happened ... It was so distinct. It was almost like someone at the soundboard suddenly adjusted all the gain at once.

I checked the recording again later and it's not that.

I checked the house and nobody had recently turned anything on.

Oh well could be many things, even possible the UPS has some sort of draw cycle, but man was it freaky.
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PostSubject: Re: Toledo's system   Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:51 pm

Hi Toledo

I can hear when the people get home from work around 3-5pm, then around 10-11 at night the sound comes more to life. My guess (only a guess) that it would be a pull on the amps tranformer before the Player. I have not had other things plugged into my audio room line for a long time so am not thinking about it, but it could easily be the UPS as you say. In listening to an open system though you can hear the electric drift in and out when things happen on the line, and more pronouced the closer they are to the system, but I'd rather hear this than a conditioner that sucks the life out and takes away the dynamics. The last time though I can remember a suck out like that though would have to be when I traced it back to a microwave an another time is when the computer fan would come on or the computer would reboot or something. That was a while ago.

I also want to say that discrete circuits are not really discrete. It is better to have a freed circuit to run things on but sometimes people have terrible sounding circuit panels and their stuck. I have experienced this a few times.

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