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 Tuning My Musical Journey

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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:20 am


More thoughts....

Sonic values Michael's guidance because I want to stay in good fidelity to the Tune because there really is something here that Michael has discovered. And I never thought rooms can be so different -- with this case of Sonic's room where the good pressure zones are clustered at the front, likely the back, very thin at the sides and in the middle nothing. Using conventional audiophile thinking this is inexplicable because the bass is supposed to build at the centre in addition to the sides with null points at the 1/3 and 1/3 points. While there are wavelength that can be calculated and measured for peaks and nulls, in a room where complex music not sine tones are playing things get more complex -- and then there is the material of the room walls, floor and ceiling that come into the picture.

Now why would Sonic, if I decide to bring back the Janis W-1 subwoofer, place it in either the right front corner or the rear right corner?

The reason is something Michael wrote on this site or in the old Tuneland -- that distribution of weight/mass in a room is also important. The heavyweight Clampracks which including equipment in this room once nearly reached 100 lbs convinced me of what Michael said when Sonic went to lower mass solutions.

If you look at my room, the heaviest objects are the Bookcase Wall and the CD cabinet. In this room most of weight is biased to the rear (the end of the room opposite where the Magneplanar MG1.5QRs are). With the speakers where they are, and given that the equipment is to the Left so logically, I should put the Janis W-1 subwoofer which weighs more than 50 lbs towards the front, so the Right corner perhaps, after that the rear Right corner.

Right now Sonic is playing an LP of J S Bach's church cantatas at a modest playback level and the sound is nice with more than sufficient bass. After this a 10 inch record of Mendelsohn's Die Hebriden Op 26 (Berlin Philharmonic, F Lebmann cond. DG...this one is a rarity).

Sonic must get accustomed to the sound, yet the Christmas holidays ahead of us and the New Year will be a good time to do some experiments.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:33 am

And a question that with Michael's answer might be thought-provoking for Zonees --

Michael -- will the placement of equipment and their racks/stands in a pressure zone or a non-zone (like my room's thin middle area) change their sound?  

Will the effect be different for mechanical/transducing devices like turntables/arms and cartridges, tape decks, tube amps that are susceptible to microphonics compared to transistor amps and CD players which are not supposed to be susceptible?

Sonic

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:13 pm

Sonic said

Need to ask: Would be kinda fun to hear the sub in either of the rear corners, pulled slightly out from the walls. Michael, do you mean the subwoofer in the corners of the wall behind me/behind the Bookcase wall?

mg

Yes, might surprise us.

Sonic

If that is the case Michael, and no bass is lost with a setting further from the side walls, shall I first try placing the subwoofer in the Front right corner behind and outside the loudspeaker and if that fails, try the rear corner?

mg

Sure, I doubt it will take long to hear if the front placement screws with that zone or not.

Sonic

Michael -- will the placement of equipment and their racks/stands in a pressure zone or a non-zone (like my room's thin middle area) change their sound?

mg

Yes, but might be for the better.

Remember my place a couple of moves ago when I did the abbey road test?



In that house my components did not like being in the center of the room, but off to the side in one room and behind me in another. The best placement can make a huge difference.

Sonic

Will the effect be different for mechanical/transducing devices like turntables/arms and cartridges, tape decks, tube amps that are susceptible to microphonics compared to transistor amps and CD players which are not supposed to be susceptible?

mg

Very system and room (house) dependant, but here's what I'm excited about. Your now thinking with more of the creative part of your brain which in the past was kinda hard for you to decide how much you wanted to use your audiophile brain or your tuning brain.

I know with me, when I let the system be the room, I end up going places that I wouldn't have thought possible.  You might remember my 2005 writing room system



there's no way this system should have sounded this good, but once everything came together it was mind blowing, carpet, bed in the room, and other furniture but you would never know anything was in there but a chair.

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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:55 am


Hi Michael and Zonees

As the system settles into the Magneplanar MG1.5QR nearer-the-wall setting the bass to Sonic's ears is extending nicely down. While it may be still early to say this, Sonic opines that the bass is sufficient in quantity, weight and with reasonable extension....as long as Sonic does not fall to greediness.

I may try bringing the speaker panels closer to each other as an experiment but what is here is satisfying. Now playing Beethoven's Pastorale Symphony (Nr 6) Orchestre Revolutionanaire et Romantique (John Eliot Gardiner cond.) on Archiv CD.

And Sonic has removed the rear metal plate of the CD player which Michael suggested I do.

First impressions is an increased clarity like a blockage somewhere in the sinuses has been cleared. Right now it is a small effect but it might grow with settling.

Michael, I am finding it awkward to adjust the preamp controls when it is set so low, it sits about 3 inches off the floor.

Sonic is contemplating swapping positions with the CD (Blu-ray) player so the preamp goes up on the table next to the turntable and the CD player goes on the floor. Which will make operation of the preamp much easier for Sonic.

The thing is that to do this I need a 9 foot interconnect to link the preamp to the equaliser, which then goes to the amp via a piece/pair of Picasso interconnects.

If this works, Sonic will wire up with Picasso but to test the idea, what interconnect or wire type do you recommend I use? Since we are working with 9 ft, I cannot just go borrow a pair of interconnects from friends. And even so, the heavy, complex interconnects beloved of by many Sonic's audiophile friends have no place here in this system.

This means I have to make up a 9 ft interconnect pair to do the test. The RCA jacks I know what to use -- lightweight nickel plated simple things used without the barrels.

Michael, what temporary cable can I use that will show if the idea works or doesn't?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:12 am


Hi Michael and Zonees

Michael -- the 9 ft connector wire I am considering is a 22 AWG Belden shielded cable -- single conductor with a wire mesh sheild. What do you think? Let Sonic know as I plan to go to the store for the cable and plugs tomorrow.

While Sonic waits for Michael to give guidance on what cheap and cheery wire I can use for the test interconnect, here is something that Zonees can read and find something to think about -- from Alan Shaw, the designer of the Harbeth line of speakers. From the excellence of his work what he says should be considered seriously.

Here is Alan Shaw on vinyl vs CD:

Source:
www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?2046-An-honest-appraisal-of-vinyl-v-digital-reality-v-romance

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is all great fun, and it's wonderful to dig into our technical heritage. But can we please be realistic about old turntables.

Nobody has mentioned one horrendous problem - rumble. Info here. Taming rumble involves mechanical isolation and damping; read here. It's not possible to reduce rumble significantly in idler wheel driven turntables because the motor is in too intimate a contact with the rotating platter. The essence of damping is that the moving parts can be physically separated and independently treated. The idler wheel driven 301/401 have astonishingly high levels of mechanical transmission from the motor through the platter, mat, disc, cartridge, arm and onward to the amplifier. Seemingly, some folk like that added 'warmth', but it is nothing more or less than a particular sort of distortion.

It never ceases to amaze me how the human ear is capable of hearing what it wants to hear and ignoring intrusive background noises! Here is a gadget for electronically removing rumble when converting vinyl to digital. As they say "In fact, if you could spin the record in midair using antigravity, and read the record grooves using a laser, you'd still hear rumble. Why? Because the record was produced on a turntable with rumble, and that rumble was copied right into the record itself!"

Let's be very cautious about creating the impression that a return to vinyl is a step-up in fidelity. Rumble, to mention just one aspect of vinyl record reproduction, is a serious issue.

It's child's play to demonstrate the sound of "digital hardness".

Equipment you will need:

1. Motor car (optional)
2. FM/AM radio, mono or stereo
3. 30 minutes listening/driving time

IMPORTANT!

Before switching on the radio MAKE SURE that it is set to AM before powering up. Do not power-up when set to FM mode. Set the volume to off before preparing yourself.

What to do:

1. Turn-on radio (in AM mode) and listen continuously for at least 30 minutes.
2. Enjoy the warm, relaxing sound.
3. Distract yourself by driving or reading, painting or similar with the radio on in the background.
4. After at least 30 mins. change over to FM.
5. Hate the hard, 'digital' sound.
6. Hurl the radio out of the window in disgust at the unnaturalness of FM (aka 'digital sound')
7. Put on your jacket, pick-up your wallet and head down to the shops to buy the best, most exotic AM radio money can buy. The more expensive the better. The heavier the better. The nicer the combination of wood and metal the better.
8. Relax and now enjoy the real sound (thinking: I should have made this investment years ago)

Cost to conduct experiment: zero. Guarantee of success: 100%

Lest you think this is an attack on "the vinyl experience", surely as valid as any other love affair, the point is that the spectral balance is different between analogue and CD.

In simple language what that means is, and I have to say it's not negotiable or arguable, it is a fact:

If we make a recording using impeccable equipment, whether digital or analogue (although all first division recording engineers would obviously choose digital for its demonstrable lack of hiss, harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion and 1000 times wider dynamic range) and we cut a vinyl record and also a CD from that same, unaltered master; and we played them side by side on the world's finest replay equipment - cost no object - we would notice a couple of things just by listening with average ears ...

1. Vinyl sounded 'warmer' at the bottom and less 'toppy'
2. Digital sounded 'brighter'

But see the problem? One of those two mediums has, without our consent, modified the replay experience. It has reinterpreted what was on the digital master tape. Now, it's entirely legitimate, in the interests of art, to paint a picture or take a photograph of the same scene. One is an interpretation, the other is an objective fact. Both can co-exist, happily. But in a court of law, under objective scrutiny, only one is a universal truth.

Please can we always keep in mind when comparing (any) analogue with digital, that like it or not, one is a painting and one a photograph.

My sole point is that we here at Harbeth are dedicated to the application of superior technology in the design and manifestation of our loudspeakers. There is not one molecule of emotional attachment to 'the old ways' in my design thinking; quite the opposite. I have no emotional attachment to paper cones any more than I have an emotional attachment to, say, 78 rpm shellac records. Or vinyl records. Or ribbon microphones. Or tube mixing consoles. Or Dolby A noise reduction or a long list of technologies that whilst representing 'technical perfection' at the time, have been brushed aside by later, better, more accurate technologies.

The point that I'm obviously failing to convey is that the source digital recording can be cloned infinitely and thanks to error detection and correction, every clone will be a perfect, exact, substitutable, identical version of the original. The millionth generation copy will not have added or subtracted one single bit from what the microphones collected and converted to volts in the studio. We can be confident about that. That copy repeatability is a defining pre-requisite for any reproduction system that claims to be accurate. We do want accuracy don't we?

Or do we?

Or do we want art? A representation, a re-working of the original.

We can't have it both ways. We can't dismiss the infinite clone-100% perfect advantage of digital and put our faith in analogue (discs) which add so much noise garbage to the sound that was never there in the recording and cannot be cloned and simultaneously claim that analogue is 'accurate'. It isn't. It never was. It never can be. The fact that there is so much random noise on the surface of the vinyl disc means that each disc pressed from the same master has a unique sonic signature. Then, after a stylus has trampled atmospheric debris down into the groove (interesting that no one has suggested the obvious: a turntable encased in a hermetic, filtered atmosphere) a few times and slightly deformed the walls of the groove, it takes on a yet more unique physical personal. So much so that forensically, the disc and its replay environment are unique and traceable to the owners replay system and room. A smoker's disc will be identifiable as such; his CD won't.

In short: any replay system that has significant random noise modifies the input > output relationship. The output, what we hear off vinyl, is no longer what was captured at the recording and will further degrade with the passing of time, increasing dust in the grooves, bacterial growth in the grooves, chemical leeching from the PVC mixture and physical deformation.

Sad, but true.

Alan A. Shaw
Designer, owner
Harbeth Audio UK
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:04 pm

Hi Sonic

Sorry for not responding, yet, needed to do some site maintainance and get some of the CES product picked up.

Rumor has it, we'll also be setting up a TT TBA, and cassette, maybe R2R, and of course Files.

I will be on TuneLand in a few hours Rolling Eyes hopefully Embarassed

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:10 am

Hi Guys

Been running back and forth from the FedEX office picking up products for the CES as well as some toys for Coop and I to explore over the next 2 plus months.

Sonic said
As the system settles into the Magneplanar MG1.5QR nearer-the-wall setting the bass to Sonic's ears is extending nicely down. While it may be still early to say this, Sonic opines that the bass is sufficient in quantity, weight and with reasonable extension....as long as Sonic does not fall to greediness.

I may try bringing the speaker panels closer to each other as an experiment but what is here is satisfying. Now playing Beethoven's Pastorale Symphony (Nr 6) Orchestre Revolutionanaire et Romantique (John Eliot Gardiner cond.) on Archiv CD.

And Sonic has removed the rear metal plate of the CD player which Michael suggested I do.

First impressions is an increased clarity like a blockage somewhere in the sinuses has been cleared. Right now it is a small effect but it might grow with settling.

mg

If the IC's do not pull down on the unit it will continue to blossom. Very important that cables do not hang when plugged into something. Many times people hear things shift up during settling and it's nothing more than gravity pulling on the cable.

Sonic

Michael, I am finding it awkward to adjust the preamp controls when it is set so low, it sits about 3 inches off the floor.

Sonic is contemplating swapping positions with the CD (Blu-ray) player so the preamp goes up on the table next to the turntable and the CD player goes on the floor. Which will make operation of the preamp much easier for Sonic.

The thing is that to do this I need a 9 foot interconnect to link the preamp to the equaliser, which then goes to the amp via a piece/pair of Picasso interconnects.

If this works, Sonic will wire up with Picasso but to test the idea, what interconnect or wire type do you recommend I use? Since we are working with 9 ft, I cannot just go borrow a pair of interconnects from friends. And even so, the heavy, complex interconnects beloved of by many Sonic's audiophile friends have no place here in this system.

mg

What do you have left from your spare cable?

Sonic

This means I have to make up a 9 ft interconnect pair to do the test. The RCA jacks I know what to use -- lightweight nickel plated simple things used without the barrels.

Michael, what temporary cable can I use that will show if the idea works or doesn't?

mg

If you don't have any of my new let me know what you do have and I'll configure something for you to put together.

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:19 am

Sonic said

Michael -- the 9 ft connector wire I am considering is a 22 AWG Belden shielded cable -- single conductor with a wire mesh sheild. What do you think? Let Sonic know as I plan to go to the store for the cable and plugs tomorrow.

mg

As I have been running around, sorry I have been slow with returns. If you haven't picked it up yet, what's the sku number and I'll look it up. If you have to go sheild look into a foil sheild for interconnects. There are some sheilding tricks I can share with you to try.


study

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:17 am

Hi Michael

Thanks for the reply Michael and Sonic will go to the stores tomorrow and look for the foil-shielded cable with a 18 or 22 AWG conductor.  I will probably go for 18 AWG if both are available given that you (Mr Green) have been experimenting with 18 AWG.

Soldering will be done Monday so can you tell me how to do the Tune with the foil shield before then – there will be a centre conductor, a drain wire and the foil itself – how shall Sonic wire all this up?

In the meantime, an update and a troubling mystery that I hope you can help Sonic solve.

First the update:

Here is the picture of Sonic’s Sony BDP-380 blu-ray player with the back plate removed.  You’ll see how Sonic got round the problem of interconnects pulling down on the sockets and causing the sound shift upwards in pitch.  The Brazilian Pine boards that Michael Green Audio supplied Sonic had holes at the corners drilled so they could be used as shelves in a rack – that was the original intention.  What Sonic did was to thread the Picasso interconnects from the CD player through the hole and so the cables are suspended and stay put.



Now the Troubling Mystery:

When Sonic first went to this near-wall set up for the Magneplanar MG1.5QRs a couple of weeks ago, I reported the sound was generous in the bass to the point that Sonic was going to notch the equalizer down a couple of dBs at the low end.  Very happy with the sound, the weight and the wall-to-wall stage I was getting.  Like Michael suggested, Sonic threw the Audiophile Booke of Rules out the window and saw it float off into the great beyond.

Last week, that is one Friday ago, Sonic caught a cold.  Nasal passages clogged with phlegm and naturally my hearing went.  So last weekend, I discounted anything I heard and the peak of the nasal clogging was Sunday/Monday.  Then I started recovering.  But as Sonic started listening again to the system critically, the Troubling Mystery occurred – the bass was thin, the midrange was too forward.  The bass of the system seemed to have stepped down. It wasn’t rolled off like 200hz -1 db, 100hz -3db, 70 hz -6db, 40hz -10db but more like 200hz flat, 100hz – 3db, 70hz -3db, 50 Hz – 3db, 40 hz -3 db.

Nothing in the system has changed.  I did move some furniture and the central FS-PZC and FS-DRTs for cleaning but everything went back exactly as before.  

So before Sonic does anything to the gear, I have to ask – is it the System or is it Me?

The worst of my cold was Sunday/Monday, that is 5 days ago.  Since then there has been improvement and I can hear all the highs and I am fully functional in the office – telephone, conference calls, conversations are no problem.  But the music from my system seems midrange-emphasized and the bass shelved down.

Since I got back from work this evening, Sonic has resisted the urge to tune things but instead put the system on repeat play of my “settling CD” and will do that till around midnight (that will be 5+ hours).  

What do you think Michael?  Have you encountered anything like this?  I don’t want to adjust anything or take the system apart when the cause could be my post-cold ears.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:23 am

Sonic said

Soldering will be done Monday so can you tell me how to do the Tune with the foil shield before then – there will be a centre conductor, a drain wire and the foil itself – how shall Sonic wire all this up?

mg

Now I'm not sure what you are getting. Do you have a picture or model number?


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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:33 am

Greetings Michael and Zonees

Three days on and the Troubling Mystery is vacating Sonic’s system  Very Happy  

It appears to have been my ears and nose clogged from the cold.  Like one evening during the Troubling Mystery period, when I played a couple of familiar LPs (The Modern Jazz Quartet) and all Sonic heard was midrange accompanied by perceived mistracking distortion and thin bass  Sad   Very nasty sounding. No, my Ortofon could not have gone from fine to this rot in a week without use while being protected and certainty there was no accident to the stylus or the cantilever.

Yet examining Sonic’s notes set out before the onset of the cold imply some caution round the effect of the removal of the metal back plate of the Sony BDP380 player that could, with settling, lead towards a midrange-prominent sound. Sonic decided that for precaution I restore the CD player to its earlier state.

Tonight’s listening session of the same CDs and LPs played at the same preamp volume settings indicate that all is well.  The bass is back, the distortion (perceived mistracking) is absent, the bass is not stepped down from the midrange, the mids have the clarity and sweetness which Sonic is accustomed to from the Ortofon 2M Blue and the tube phono stage.

In the coming week as we approach Christmas, Sonic has decided to defer the plan to make the long interconnect.

The experiment that Michael suggested to tjbhuler using 75 gsm (grams per square meter) bond paper after being rubbed with static cling sheet is something Sonic is keen to try particularly under the Magneplanar MG1.5QRs’ metal feet.  Given my floor is parquet not tile like tjbhuler’s, I don’t expect much but given that all attempts to use MTDs, AAB1x1s, Brazilian Pine, Low Tone Redwood and MW under the Magneplanar MG1.5QRs have not produced improvements means there is likely a field there that needs dealing with and Sonic may be surprised.

That said, Sonic is very cautious about mentioning fields because the number of dodgy products supposed to deal with “fields” has brought disrepute to our hobby which should have a strong element of being science-based in addition to being subjective.  Too much round “fields” could associate the good and solid work that Michael is doing with the loony fringe of the Audio world.

Which brings Sonic to another point relating to my posting of what Alan Shaw said on the Harbeth User Group site. I find some of Mr Shaw’s tests to show the limitations of analog playback in particularly the mistracking, the gain riding, the residual noise levels to be useful in helping us understand the differences between the sound of digital and analog recording and playback. Alan’s work as a designer of the Harbeths and his research here into the limitations of analog compared to digital is valuable to our hobby and the science of audio.

The sad thing is in our hobby, there is also often a mean-spirited tone in discussion as you can see in the “dialog” on many Forums.  You can read the Harbeth User Group and find examples of this.  Michael’s Techno-Zone is remarkably free of this.  Sonic hopes that we stay this way and avoid the diatribes we see elsewhere.

One thing Sonic is grateful for being pointed to the HUG thread on analog is about idler wheel turntables and the high rumble inherent in their design. Sonic was considering a well-known idler wheel design to substitute my Rega and I am going to rethink this given the high rumble levels characteristic of these idler wheel devices which will reduce resolution of the music in analog form that we love further.

Right now, Sonic has a Musical Heritage Society LP of Aaron Copland’s Nonet for Strings and Two Pieces for String Quartet – St Luke’s Chamber Ensemble (Dennis Russell Davies cond) playing on the Rega. The sound tonight is warm and glowing.  All is well with the Tune.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:16 am



When I look at other forums, and read articles, for some reason I have always been able to see what is real and what is promotion of self. I truly believe the only way to get our arms around the hobby is to be actively involved with the whole of sound. Those aren't just words for me or a slogan. From the time I ran my first Studer I got in trouble because I had to "do" the industry. While I watched engineers cut corners, there was always something in me that had to go back and see what was really going on. It's part of who I am, and why I had to become the founder (maybe inventor) of tuning in this part of designing. If any of you saw how tough I am on my own listening you would freak Laughing Not that I always do everything, but I always listen and think variables.

Here's the other thing that you all should keep in mind about me. I also believe the only way to be the master at tuning is to be the biggest student of tuning. And what is the key to being a student? Studying the variables! If one is a true student, it means we crave learning the whole, and the whole never ends. In other words you are my teacher. I may share with you and design for you, but I can only do this in a total way if I can get inside of your brain and ears, and the brain and ears of every listener I study.

I think the reason the other sites are focus so much on arguing and posturing comes down to, not letting go enough to learn. I'm like every other male ego out there, as anyone can read here, but when it comes down to listening and voicing I am more into finding out, rather than being right. To be completely right, one has to be completely variable.

let me give an example, speaker designing

Ever read specs where they tell you the exact dimension, the specs of drivers, order of correction cross-overs, and all the other parts to that particular speaker design? It's all false. Honestly speaker spec designing and using a mic and computer or any program doesn't work. If it did a speaker would sound exactly the same no matter what room it was put in, or where you placed it in the room. These are the types of things that get my wheels turning and because I have listened to and owned so many speakers where that model of thinking was exactly correct, it allows me to learn. It allows me to think of speaker designing as a whole. That whole is speakers are meant to be....variable, and whole. Meaning, you really can't design a speaker separate from your particular room, environment and amplifier, and ears. My answer to speaker designing is based on me being flexible and you being right. See what I mean? How can anyone make a fixed sound for you when nothing about audio is fixed, including your ears. This is one reason why these folks get testy with each other. They're all trying to be right for everyone else in a world that is based on uniquness.

Because variable is the ultimate teacher, I can relax and learn from your variables without me needing to be right. My problem is I think about all the systems too much placing myself in everyones room to the best of my abilities. When you go on an exploration you might be surprised at how much it spins my mind as I try to figure out why? Truthfully, if everyone described detailed parts of their soundstage (per recording) it would make things easier for me. You see the only thing on TuneLand that bugs me personally is when I get lost, because someone goes in a direction that I may not understand, so you guys will see me press the issue some, but it's not like I'm actually mad. It's just me asking myself why?

If TuneLand was like the other forums I wouldn't be able to do it. My view of the hobby is looking at a bunch of guys trying to write something as fixed fact while standing on a moving planet Laughing . They keep spending all their time trying to make something they can point to as "the" snapshot, "the" formula. This is where I take a departure from the rest. I don't have to be right, I have to be good. Being good at the variables is a big move from the fixed audiophile world, and this is why TuneLand is peaceful.

TuneLand isn't forcing the issues, other than all is variable and everything affects everything else, and because of this listeners who come here weed themselves out. As the listener embraces tuning as the truth, they pretty much in many ways solve their own frustrations. With every challenge, they start to be aware that an answer is waiting, and that answer is making their system more like a musical instrument. The reason why the other guys are fighting with each other is because they are usually frustrated that the audio world is not fixed one, and two they can't deal with the fact that every single part of this industry is a different point of view from any other part, and they haven't learned to do anything about it.

The other part that makes TuneLand peaceful is, we enjoy others enjoying their music regardless of what they are listening to or listening on. Someone can come here never tuning, and share their music and that makes them as cool to our community as anyone else. TuneLand loves music for the sake of music first and many of the other hobbyist may not look at the actually joy of listening with the same freedom of choice.

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:18 am

Sonic asked me to comment on the back plate.



When I look at the picture, to be honest I see tension. I can't tell cause I can't really see it, but your description of the sound tells me that something wasn't balanced when you took the back plate off. Could have been running the IC through the hole then bending it. Saying this, I keep the backs on some of my maggie players, and others I strip all the way. I also use type 1, which is half the weight.

Either way, it's good that you can hear how much this area of the system is tunable.

The other comments are, to me any how, it looks like this was also the case of you moving pretty fast while your ears were a little screwy. I wasn't there so it would be a little hard to say, stop lets try this. However it looks to me that there would have been several things to do to see the potential benefits or at least what specifically caused the shift. A question I have is, after you took the back off, did you spend time re-arranging the transfer underneath? Taking off that big of a piece of the chassis would make the player into a different animal.

But all this is just the way I think when I hear changes.

Now here's my next possible theory. Take a look at the pic again.



See how the chassis is shaped. It could easily be, the chassis lost it's tone when the back plate came off. It's kinda like a tuning board with blocks vs a platform where the frame makes the tone happen. Maybe taking off that back plate threw the chassis out of tune because the sides and bottom were no longer as connected. Too late now but if you would have tapped on the chassis with the back on and off, you would have been able to hear which had more tone.

So I think it was a combo of all of the above.

Oh and now my mind is in over time. If you laid a 3x12 (or how ever wide) x 1/4", and then top tuned, that might give back the tone to the chassis and then some. Again it's just how my brain works.

so many options, so much fun Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:23 am

Greetings Michael

Yes so many options, so much fun..... Razz

You have a point that Sonic should have also looked at adjusting the transfer after I removed the back plate of the Sony Blu-ray player.  However, I did not do that for a couple of reasons – Sonic has learnt from hard experience not to do two Tunes at the same time.  Of course in this case, it is doing another tune done in response to the first – but Sonic didn’t.

The other reason that Sonic went no further is reading my notes I noted that the sound has gone clear and very detailed.  This can with settling too often lead to upward shift.  Also in my notes are the results of removing the back plate of an earlier Sony DVD player and getting a thin lightweight sound too.

Sonic might take the interconnects that run through the hole in the Brazilian Pine board and let them run freely supported against pull by a MW block or something.

But before Sonic gets to that, here is something else I did.  Following Michael’s advice to tjbhuler, Sonic cut eight squares/oblongs of 80 gsm bond paper, rubbed the paper on both sides a few times with a piece of static cling plastic (the sort of thing transparent plastic sheet you use on your car windshield to hold a label) and placed them like so:



The impression on starting music after this was a point of fascination for Sonic.  The effect was not large but the volume increased where a familiar CD at familiar playback level was sounding a bit too loud.  The bass sounded “heavier” in a good sense, the extension of the low end was accompanied by a sense of size of the instrument being played more clearly than I heard before and the mids were slightly unusual.  They were projected in the way your hearing sounds when you hold your nose and pop your ears as the airplane you are in descends for landing.  A projection in the midrange that is at once clear and slightly echoey.

The whole thing is promising enough for Sonic to let the whole thing settle.  As Sonic hits Send on this post, the echoey ring is mostly gone though the mids may be too forward even though the bass is very nice.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:07 pm

Hi Sonic

Yep, you have some serious energy going on there. When you get a chance, take your static sheet and rub a foot square head level straight in front, back (behind the bookcase wall) and on either side and tell me if you hear it.

I think I may know what was going on with the Space Cones, but do this first for me.

thanks


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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:01 pm


Greetings Michael and Zonees

As settling of the “field” paper progresses, Sonic is in a bit of a quandary – the bass is good, growling, low and weighty while the midrange is slightly projected forward but the fly in the ointment is this: the bass and midrange sound like they are coming from different loudspeakers – not different parts of the same loudspeaker but from different speakers. This is a small and occasional effect that happens on some LPs and CDs. Actually one of each come to think of it so the majority of recordings Sonic has tried are good. But when it occurs, it is a bizarre sound – like a friend of mine who has a DIY thing of a horn loaded Fostexs for mids in a pair of cabinets, ribbon tweeters mounted atop and a pair of bass 12 inch drivers in some ported arrangement. Pink Floyd DSOTM played on this system was like hearing it through 6 speakers simultaneously!

Now the test with the static cling sheet Michael suggested:

Method:

Warm up system and playing music for three hours – same CD. Sonic not in room most of this time.

Ensure during this test unnecessary electronic equipment are not switched on or operating in the listening room (mobile, laptop).

Play a familiar reference CD once through – Handel’s Water Musick (Archiv, English Concert, T Pinnock cond) at customary level. Sonic is not in room listening.

Next play Tracks 10/11 and listen. Repeat and note first impressions in handwriting on paper. Put CD player on Pause.

Take a static cling sheet in hand. Rub a 1 ft square on the Bookcase Wall directly behind my head when seated in the listening chair. Then two “patches” wiped at the same height from the floor on the Ikea record shelves flanking me Right and Left were rubbed. Then repeat in the same corresponding spots on the rear of the Bookcase Wall and the Ikea record shelves.

Play Tracks 10/11 again, report first observations in handwriting and as listening progresses letting the musick play on.

Observations:

Before – the sound was as I am accustomed to, nice to listen to though this afternoon when the test was carried out, the strings were a little zingy to my ears.

After – the sound became fuller in the upper bass with there was slightly more impact in the Bass Viol top range and in the Cello range. The zingyness in the strings is gone.

Further listening shows that the effect of the static cling film wipe lasts no more than half an hour.

Conclusion:

You are onto something Michael Shocked – but what is it and what is the remedy Question

Sonic

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:54 pm

Ok, now we're getting into another area so we will want to move with caution and notes (which you are very good at).

will be back

first though, have you ever used an air ioniser Question

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:05 am


Nope, never have used an ioniser any where in my dwelling or car. What are you suggesting?
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:25 am

A Joyous Christmas,Michael and Zonees!
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:16 pm

Hope your having a Blessed day Exclamation

read this for me

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_ioniser


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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Fri Dec 25, 2015 8:27 am

Christmas Day greetings Michael and Zonees  Very Happy

Yes, I have read the link – there are a number of those devices on sale here.  What are you suggesting Michael? There are a number of devices discussed on the link such as air purifiers which generate negative ions (anions), ozone generators which are dangerous and devices that reduce static. Is the Negative Ion generator air purifiers I should be looking at?

Now here is what Sonic did after the strange experiment of rubbing my Bookcase Wall and record cabinets with a static cling wrap piece.

Sonic did say earlier in my December 11 post that I could predict that a subwoofer was somehow in this system’s future and I decided (while waiting for Michael to guide me on the field issue and his cryptic question if I ever tried a de-ioniser) to get on with it.

So the Paradigm X-30, the Rotel monoblock (bridged) were wired in and the Janis W-1 subwoofer reintroduced in the Right Hand corner.  Very quickly with music playing, Sonic knew that this is not the best position for the subwoofer – very loud but One Note.  The bass drum went BOOM, BOOM, BOOM but the extension dropped off sharply below the BOOM frequency.  Now bass drums are not very LF – about 80hz.  The musick was thick and sludgy.

Then Sonic had an idea – set the Janis W-1 at the 1/3 of the length of the room along a side wall. I know from experience that at this point I can get thinness in the bass and that is what might tame the runaway bass notes.

This Sonic did:



And for one of the first times in my experience, the link between the main panel system and the subwoofer was smooth. A listener could not tell there was a subwoofer in the system but when a low note was played, there was a bass weight and extension which the panels on their own could not give.  This was the effect of the bass being big and moving the gut.  The only thing is the quality of the low bass has a slightly thick and heavy character that the panels do not have.  So by that token, you can tell there is a subwoofer in the system. However, there is no stereo distortion – there can be big subwoofering activating bass in the Left channel and the bass is over on the side of the room. This is a good sign.

So this may be about as good a start Sonic ever had with the Janis W-1 ever as I see from my records.

Here is the drive system – the Paradigm x-30 and the Rotel bridged amp.



The crossover used is 60hz and the phase has been set.  The cabling is all genuine Michael Green except the speaker wire to the Janis W-1 which is a twin cored stranded copper cable – it is a Van Damme Blue Series Studio speaker cable of 2 x 0.75mm conductors each 42 x 0.15mm UPOFC working out to about 20 AWG per conductor. Sonic understands this is the cable that is used by Harbeth for its speakers. If this subwoofering starts to be really successful, Sonic will also wire up the Janis W-1 with T4 from Mr Green.

All RCA jacks are partly inserted in the sockets, the speaker cable is bare wire to binding post at the amp end but banana jacks (without sleeves) at the speaker end.  The Janis W-1 sits on four Low Tone Redwood blocks, the Rotel on three Low Tone Redwood blocks and the Paradigm also on three Low Tone Redwood blocks.

The JVC SEA-10 is out of the system for now till I have Picasso interconnects to wire it into the tape loop path.  But for bass adjustment, it can be done with the Paradigm x-30 though given that the crossover has no detents in its volume control and that it is so low to floor, adjusting for varying LPs, CDs and SPs repeatably will be very difficult.  While Sonic recalls I have introduced the Janis W-1 and its related equipment before several times reporting enthusiastically then over time hearing the flaws, I am hoping we have a breakthrough this time especially if Michael can help Sonic crack the Field Code of this room.

Cracking the Field Code may solve so many oddities in this room and open many Tuning doors to Sonic.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:49 pm

Sonic said

Yes, I have read the link – there are a number of those devices on sale here.  What are you suggesting Michael? There are a number of devices discussed on the link such as air purifiers which generate negative ions (anions), ozone generators which are dangerous and devices that reduce static. Is the Negative Ion generator air purifiers I should be looking at?

Now here is what Sonic did after the strange experiment of rubbing my Bookcase Wall and record cabinets with a static cling wrap piece.

Sonic did say earlier in my December 11 post that I could predict that a subwoofer was somehow in this system’s future and I decided (while waiting for Michael to guide me on the field issue and his cryptic question if I ever tried a de-ioniser) to get on with it.

mg

I have not used either of these in a while, but I think it would be an interesting move because we now know that the room has some electron-ish issues. If a unit could be bought on a 45 or more day return policy hopefully that would be enough to rearrange some exchanges and would tell you that you are heading in the correct direction.

From my end what I can tell you is, the way charges hang onto objects as well as develope in mid air will affect the sound, because the air host the sound waves. Just like humidity changes the travel of the sound wave (and pressure) so does the charge of the room. We don't see it, but the electron interchange/interaction in the space is always in exchange mode. Static is one result, but the exchange is my first concern. This means the negative ion would be what I would look into first. I'm also assuming that different models do different volumes.

This is one of those issues, that because I live in the desert, might be harder for me to duplicate what you have. If I were there I might sense it faster, but sometimes if I'm not able to produce the issues I'm more tentitive to throw out possible fixes. In other words I can sense what is going on over there just not exactly sure which blend is the way to go. For myself it's like turning up and down the volume on energy gains and losses. These interactions have to exist in order for physics to work, but finding those right combos is something that are an art all on their own.

This is why I bring up the fundamental interactions often.

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:41 am

Greetings Zonees

While Sonic is letting all these idea about ions settle and the Janis W-1 is giving me a fulsome bass, I got an insight that might be of interest to Tunees.

Remember the Live End–Dead End room set up proposed by Don and Carolyn Davis? Even to this day some audiophiles talk about using a form of it in their home listening systems.

For those unsure what Sonic is discussing here is a pix:



Source: http://www.primacoustic.com/flexifuser-science.htm

This was a design methodology for a studio mixing room where the walls/floor/ceiling of the end of the room from the sides of the mixing desk forward to the wall where  the monitors were located was heavily damped (The Dead End).  On the other hand the walls, ceiling, floor of the room from the listening seat to the rear wall was diffusive, bass trapped and live (The Live End).

The premise was that engineers could mix and master better if they were spared the comb filter interference that took place from the nearby surfaces. The speakers were also mounted to reduce as much reflection from the top of the mixing desk while the live rear part of the room gave the ambience.  Some engineers liked LEDE this while other found the sound strange and impossible to work with. Anyway LEDE is now history with other different methodologies to design studio control and mastering rooms with such as Reflection Free Zones and Ambechoic concepts.

However the myth of LEDE persists among audiophiles that it is somehow desirable in a domestic listening environment.  

Sonic had a live musical experience that I think shows that LEDE was designed with a totally different objective in mind other than home musick enjoyment.  

Sonic was invited to a live musical event where a small string ensemble was to perform in one of the recital halls in town. Knowing the organizer, Sonic got to be at the rehearsal in the empty recital space and then attend the performance.  The room was small and well-designed.  The ensemble sat at one end of the hall near the wall and during the rehearsal in the empty room, the sound was loud, very clear and l could hear the room was controlled but the sound of “empty ambience” was indicated to my ears.  

Then the room filled with people for the performance and soon Sonic was surrounded by water-filled sound absorbers to my front, sides and rear.  The sound absorbers are humans. Then the music started – the ensemble was out front in a livelier and diffusive space while Sonic in the audience was in a relatively acoustically deader zone.  Isn’t this opposite of the LEDE studio?  The Front was now the Live End and the area surrounding me to the rear of the room was the Dead End.

Moreover, we need to consider the “range” of the Live and Dead conditions. In this example the Live End was not that Live but nicely diffusive, while the Dead End was somewhat absorptive but not Dead.  Also there is no sharp discontinuity where the room goes from very absorptive to very live and reflective in a very short distance as you can see from the graphic. Think too of concert halls with their prosceniums are designed to reflect/diffuse the sound of the performers to a hall of people which when full is actually a large zone of absorptivity. Also a livelier performance area is essential for musicians to hear themselves and each other and balance their instruments.

This is telling to Sonic -- that whatever the merits of LEDE studios, it is the other way around in concert halls and live performances.

So some thought for audiophiles too not to confuse specific pro-audio practices with what is suitable in musick replay listening rooms. A studio is not a personal listening space and the methods used are for specific professional purposes in mind.  Just because something is Pro doesn’t mean it is magically better!

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:15 pm

Hi Sonic

I didn't read the link, yet,



but I remember LEDE all too well. It was one of the first audio control myths that I had to battle with. A true case of mind over matter as so many audio myths were created without the true test of practical application. I can still see (and hear) the walls and walls of foam in front of me No . Even built a few in my very early days.

LEDE, discrete, straight line soundwaves, dedicated ac, isolation, inert, anechoic and on the lists go. All myths that have partial truths if it wasn't for the "motion" of physics. Being someone that has been in and built these it was always obvious to me that the nature of sound was being distorted, so much so, that I can remember needing to walk outside during testing, recording and listening sessions because my ears got so filled with fatigue pressure. "where did Natch go?" I was outside clearing my ears out.

Which is still a test I do all the time. One of the ways I know I'm getting close is if I can go from inside the listening room to outside my house without much pressure release.

cool post Sonic

Understanding the past, gives hopes to the now.

I might have more response as I find time but the mention of LEDE, was enough to make my first comment. One point though is fact. The hall, the home and the studio are completely different worlds that in a perfect world should all be able to emulate each other. They don't, but they should "in a perfect world" Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:34 am


Greetings Zonees

Last evening after Sonic uploaded my post, I played musick and one CD was of Paul Hindemith’s Concert Music for Brass and Strings Op 50 (Philharmonia Orch, the composer conducting/EMI).

As the low brass instruments in the orchestra played Sonic was reminded of how the brass sounded when I recently heard our national orchestra play at a live concert – a deep weight combined with a bite/incisiveness in the notes played. With the Janis W-1 Sonic is getting a reflection of this sound. And the bass is coherent, you cannot tell from the tonality or imaging there is a subwoofer operating in this system, much less 40-year old slot loaded device though it has a 15 inch Altec woofer!

And this weight was heard even when the system was playing this piece at modest levels. When the musick got louder the sound got weightier and the images went bigger. This is promising.

A question for Michael:

The Janis W-1 subwoofer is working well and whatever some audiophiles may say about the bass being a little heavy, Sonic says “better this than a bass-light minimonitor sound!” There is a boom which Sonic seeks Michael’s guidance how to tame. On the Beatles’ Come Together, there is a sustained note in the bass riff. It should be low pitched, sustained and then fade naturally. What Sonic gets is the bass note starts OK but in the sustain period, it rises in volume slightly then fades. Like the room might be giving a delayed reinforcement. Sonic played Come Together and listened close up to the Janis W-1 and found the bass note from the slot was fine and well-controlled so it is the room that is causing the delayed boom – another feature of Sonic’s strange room.

So it sounds like booOOOmmmm, like a volume pedal was used to raise the volume of the sustained note then fading it off. Having heard Come Together on many systems, Sonic knows this effect is not on the recording. In Sonic's room, this artifact happens on this record and maybe one or two others at most. How do I go about removing this effect without turning down the bass or overdamping it?

Sonic

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