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 Tuning My Musical Journey

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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:01 am


Greetings Michael and Zonees

Hey Michael cheers do give Sonic your comments and suggestions on how I can go about placing and getting the Space Cones to work this time.

Now we are at DAY 12 of Sonic’s return to nearfield and the system has settled somewhat more and the sound has expanded progressively. This “bigness” is also accompanied with “energy” and “deep tone”. Listening to a familiar CD of a harpsichord (French baroque) now puts me close if not at the microphone position over the soundboard of the instrument – this is a new immersive sound in this room.

The size of images is also set in a larger playback space – when Sonic played the RCA Red Seal CD of Fritz Reiner conducting the Chicago Symphonic Orch. performing Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade. More impact, not yet the scale of a large orchestra as in real life, and perhaps also short of the way Michael’s speakers will play this gret recording however the sound I am getting might be something of a high-point of progress that Sonic has made with this system and room.

Sonic has to add that with the RCA Red Seal CD of Sheherazade I had to get the right playback level which in this case is within the envelope of the volume settings Sonic uses albeit on the higher side while the bass at the subwoofer had to be notched up 2dB from the usual settings. Without doing this the CD recording does not reveal its weight and dynamics.

The resolution even when playing at soft levels is good and when images are at the speaker positions I can tell there is no a sense of images plastered on the speakers but rounded images with girth that happen to occupy the place where the speakers are.

Now Michael, about what Sonic can do with the Space Cones….. Question

Sonic
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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:46 am

Greetings Zonees

On DAY 13 of nearfield set up, Sonic is finding the speakers have disappeared nicely as identifiable sound sources at the listening chair.  While standing in front of a panel I can still identify the panel as a source of sound but not at the listening chair.  The piano on Maurice Ravel’s Miroirs played by Paul Crossley (crd) is focused across my room a little behind the equipment table, the trebles sing, the deep “growling” low notes of the piano gives good foundations and the sound is of a large instrument played in an acoustic space.

The upper bass is warm and not lean/analytical sounding. Satisfying.

Also played David Munrow and The Early Music Consort of London's recording of Two Renaissance Dance Bands (Testament CD reissue). On Tylman Susato's Ronde and Salterelle (from 12 Dances from the Danserye 1551) a viol consort is playing on the Left of the stage with a Recorder ensemble on the Right. The strings are sonorous with every instrument in that group defined in space playing together yet as distinct instruments, ditto the recorders. Very naturally reproduced.

Sonic


Last edited by Sonic.beaver on Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:20 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : More listening)
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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:09 pm

Hi Sonic

Sonic said

"Now Michael, about what Sonic can do with the Space Cones….. Question "

mg

I have no idea. When you use them it seems your system goes in cycles instead of long term settling. This is not something I've experience with the Space Cones, so it's hard for me to see what they are doing. It could be something like, they don't like the charging of your speakers is a guess. Or that your system is charging up then being shutdown. After reading your comments several times, I would try to get the Space Cones to do what you were saying they do (rise and fall), but in all my systems the settling always moved toward expanding the Vibes and never retreating, getting bright sounding. I've thought about your setup in regards to the Space Cones but because I am not able to get them to do what yours are it's hard for me to say. I've used the Cones in several rooms, even ones with hard plaster walls and never got the results you have. I've been able to get bright or mellow and a wide range inbetween but never have heard them go from open to closed in, unless they had too much weight of the wrong material ontop of them, which you haven't done.

So my jury is out, when it comes to your experience. However keep in mind my systems rarely get turned off.


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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:07 am


Hi Michael

This puzzles Sonic much too. Nevertheless you know me, as one not to give up so Sonic is going to re-introduce the Space Cones in a spot that nearly worked and maybe in some spots where they just might work. Let's see, will try this tomorrow.

Sonic

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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:08 am

Hello Michael and Zonees

Sonic is trying this application of the Space Cones:



And this for perspective:



Let us see if the present state of the tune is conducive to these devices by Michael working now.

The first impression is promising but this is always as it has been, it is only after settling that things start to happens – of course in this case Sonic is hoping and has some reason to believe that it will work right.

A question for Michael – you mentioned the “charge of my speakers”.  What is this since apart from Electrostatics and perhaps Field Coils, Sonic does not associate “charge” with other types of loudspeakers.

How do I neutralize this “charge”?  Are “charges” something to be neutralized, or are they ever beneficial?

It is now DAY 15 of the nearfield set up and the sound is satisfying. There is nice musick playing in this place!

Sonic
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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:21 am

Hello Zonees

After four days, the introduction of the Space Cones changes the sound. What the change is in words is beyond Sonic’s vocabulary to describe.  The sound is not thinner but some frequency in the upper midrange is emphasized yet the sound is not brighter. The effect lies somewhere between 4 to 7 khz as far as Sonic has learnt from using an equalizer.  The upshot is a sound that is slightly metallic. At the other end of the scale, the bass is good and slightly tightened up.  So the whole sound begins to be hifi-like while Sonic prefers the big, warm, loose sound.
 
Anyway among the records Sonic enjoyed this weekend are these two albums:



This is a mono version of the great Johnny Cash’s 1966 album.  The recording is very good and the mix done great. With the Tune, mono albums sound huge and convincing.  There is more to realism than stereo image placement.  Hard to believe and hard to describe but it is so!



Another great album with very fulsome and defined bass is this one by Herb Alpert and Co.  Sonic may be turning into a quasi-basshead.  Meaning with the Janis W-1 subwoofer I like a big bass that gives foundation to the music even if the bass is slightly heavy or slow. Sonic surmises that music needs the low foundation to anchor it or the whole thing becomes analytical and artificial.

It is DAY 17 of my return to nearfield listening with the Janis W-1 subwoofer system.  

Sonic can conclude that with this room in the present state of Tune and this set of gear in my system that nearfield speaker placement and bass reinforcement with a subwoofer is the correct approach. The removal of the Janis W-1 subwoofer system (while there are some advantages) and the movement of the Magneplanar MG1.5QRs towards the front wall (to the far-field) were detours. Good discoveries and learning of my room pressure zones and all that, Sonic could console myself, yet detours if I am to be honest.
 
Sonic
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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:14 am

Hi Sonic



fun recording Smile

Glad to see you enjoying the bass Exclamation I like tuning to reveal, but when lazy (just having fun), I also like playing with the bass bumped slightly, plump but tight around the edges.

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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:11 am


Greetings Zonees

Out there are so many ideas and views. Recently we have seen renewed interest in Alnico magnets for loudspeakers, and here is another view about this material. If this is true, much of the golden vintage era sound may be the result of compression.... Question


The Alnico Sound

This is all about compression and it only happens due to the nature of the AlNiCo magnet.

AlNiCo magnet has a delicate magnetic field, easily drained by other forces. So when you send a signal to the voice coil in a speaker, you are generating an opposite magnetic field. The field generated in the coil pushes away from the AlNiCo field, causing the cone to push out. When you swap the polarity, the reversal happens.

The field in the coil is also interacting with the AlNiCo, it loses some of its power as the coils field is present.

When playing music, the louder the volume the greater the field in the coil. The AlNiCo magnet is constant but the coils field is jumping around and switching direction. The bigger the coils field, the more power sapped from the AlNiCo.

So to recap, when the fields are interfering, the voice coil field weakens the AlNiCo magnets field. As you increase the signal, the greater you weaken the AlNiCo.

If you weaken the magnet on a speaker, it becomes less efficient (you get less output volume). This is happening with every movement of the voice coil, tiny tiny amounts and at extremely high speeds.

So the AlNiCo magnet system is smoothing the sound, or, to be more accurate, compressing.

So there is a difference with AlNiCo speakers and to my ears they do sound "better" but of course there are many other elements to a speaker and a well designed ceramic speaker will sound better than a poorly designed AlNiCo.

http://tvhf.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/speakers

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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:14 am


Hi Michael

What has been your experience with cone speakers with various types of magnets -- ceramic, AlNiCo, Neodymium?

Sonic knows the Lowther alnico drivers are highly prized and there was a trend during the Single-Ended Triode/horn crazy period to go back to AlNiCo drivers and 16 ohms (the ohms Sonic recognises as good for tube amps given the high output impedance of tube amps which led to a loss of damping when driving lower impedance speakers. Higher impedance speakers will give more controlled bass). Your views?

Hi Hiend001

What an achievement with your system! Congratulations cheers cheers cheers

For you to ditch your Magnavox the sound from the Asus laptop and Aune 32/384 DAC must be really something.

Sonic




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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:55 am

Hi Sonic,

Do you have any success on the wire loop tips when connect to your Sub Woofer negative terminal Question
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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:25 am


Hi Hiend001

Background for Zonees: Hiend001 came up with some very interesting Tunes and suggested that Sonic try them.

I did the tune you suggested of a wire loop round one pole of my Janis W-1 subwoofer terminals. The bass became fast and tight, yet the lowest frequencies appeared rolled off. Sonic would have had to raise the subwoofer level and adjust the X-30 to change the overlap. I did not persevere with this Tune as Sonic had to travel and then got sidetracked into some roads that eventually got me back to a nearfield set up for my Magneplanar MG1.5QRs with the subwoofer. It makes a difference to the sound and Sonic aims to attempt this again.

Do post the description of this idea for others Zonees and Sonic will jump in on the conversation!

Sonic
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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:24 am


Greetings Zonees Very Happy

Sonic is closing this thread “Tuning My Musical Journey” which has been my primary thread since August 31, 2014.

Happily, through much labour the goals Sonic sought have been achieved – which is to achieve a stable acoustic environment free of BOO! and various nasty ringing in this space that was described by one respected Tunee as equivalent to a concrete bunker.

With advice from Michael and Zonees, Sonic has vanquished the problems mostly, got the sound of wood, used some unconventional (for the Tune) materials and approaches. Yes, I went in circles yet learnt a lot about the room, the Tune as well as an understanding of how Sonic thinks about things Idea

So now Sonic is happily back to nearfield listening with the low-end supported by the Janis W-1 subwoofer system and an properly effective Tune device placement, so I can close this chapter of my journey and start a new adventure in the Tune, in Audio and music collecting/listening.

Sonic tomorrow commences a new thread: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback.

See you all there cheers

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:53 am

Hi Sonic

you said

"What has been your experience with cone speakers with various types of magnets -- ceramic, AlNiCo, Neodymium?

Sonic knows the Lowther alnico drivers are highly prized and there was a trend during the Single-Ended Triode/horn crazy period to go back to AlNiCo drivers and 16 ohms (the ohms Sonic recognises as good for tube amps given the high output impedance of tube amps which led to a loss of damping when driving lower impedance speakers. Higher impedance speakers will give more controlled bass). Your views?"

mg, WOW massive question Smile

Because I am an empirical student, I tend to visit materials and fields as an on-going learning fest. I try to share as many absolutes as I can, but never really close the door on field treating, meaning sometimes I'll hear a particular design and it will work, within it's context, and fall apart in another. At the same time I like making my own field tricks to use among the field created and influenced by specifics including the particular range of field and response in one area compared to the next.

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:23 am

Hi Sonic

Let me confess, I tried my hardest not to force my personal believe in nearfield on this last go-a-round. At times I almost bit my tounge off, wanting to say don't give up on nearfield, but I felt it important for me to stay out of this choice for you. Saying this, I'm very happy to see you explore the stage on your own and come to your own conclusions.

My goal, is to help others find their path & preferences knowing that no one hears the same as well as everyone having their own taste factor which is under-stressed in this hobby. Too many people care about what their neighbors think instead of becoming masters of uniqueness.

With my own systems, I learn something new everyday, no kidding. It might be a flavor of a cymbal that splashes in a way I never heard before, or a word spoke that never appeared in the stage before by an engineer or other musician, or so many things, each one adding to the adventure, with no two adventures being the same. Sometimes I think to myself "I'm only just starting". So many recordings and so many options, all of which could be argued "truth or fiction", but all of which have more to give and I get to uncover.

It's a hobby that allows us to go forward or backward, side to side and up and down. We get to let the music take us or we can take the music. Either way it's always waiting for us to explore. The computer move is more than likely where we will all end up in time. Also visiting any part of source history we choose to jump into.

Anyway I must say I'm proud you found your way back, or the music brought you back, to nearfield (my fav). Well maybe extreme nearfield is my fav, but really anything that brings me inside of things instead of looking at them only. This thread has been viewed by more people than you think and I hope you share from time to time on Sonic's "Tuning My Musical Journey" Very Happy

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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:35 am

Hi Michael

Very glad Sonic is too that the music called me back to the Nearfield  Very Happy

I looked at the picture of your listening room posted today on your main thread with the new prototype Chameleons, and by counting the tile squares on the floor, it seems that the plane of the Chameleons' front panels are something like 3 to 3 1/2 feet from the plane of the listener's ear when seated in the chair.

For comparison, Sonic did a quick measure of the distance of the plane of my Magneplanar 1.5QRs to the plane of a listener's ears at my listening seat and got 4 1/2 feet.

Right, that is nearfield but not extreme nearfield like your set up but nearfield enough to surprise visiting audiophiles who say to Sonic "how can you listen to Magneplanars like this?  The images will bunch up in the panels, your stereo image will break up into pools and you are so far off-axis that your treble will be very rolled off and uneven on the way down."

Then Sonic cues an LP on the turntable, perhaps a CD, and when the musick plays they go Shocked

Sonic


Last edited by Sonic.beaver on Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:46 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : correcting typo)
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:53 am

Hi Sonic

4 1/2' that's pretty good Exclamation

Yep, I think pressure zones are another level of understanding for audiophiles to take a bite out of, and get comfortable with. And they (the hobbyist) will, thanks to posters like yourself.

Smile

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