Michael Green Audio Forum

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
 
Our Website  HomeHome  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  

Share | 
 

  Tone controls

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
tmsorosk



Posts : 132
Join date : 2014-02-03
Age : 59
Location : Spruce Grove Canada

PostSubject: Tone controls   Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:46 am


I thought I would start a new thread rather than add - a bit off topic - to another thread.

Within the other thread I read where someone felt that the removal of tone controls from preamps etc was the beginning of the dark ages for audio. It needs to be pointed out that tone controls add or subtract electronically to compensate in part for faults in the audio system or room. A quick fix to be sure but is it the best way to overcome a problem?
Lets keep in mind that even in a tone controls center position we are corrupting the audio signal by sending it through additional wiring an electronics. All electronics know matter how small impart there own sonic signature and add a slight degration to the original signal.
My experience is that when everything is right in an audio system and room the tone controls end up in the center or neutral position negating there usefulness.
I think we all understand that many audiophiles/music lovers don't have the resources to build a competent system and music room so tone controls may be useful in less than ideal situations, but to believe that getting ride of a signal altering piece of electronics has hurt audio is not correct.

I should make it clear that this is only my opinion and not an attempt to insult anyones beliefs but rather provoke additional thought on the topic.

Thanks Tim
Back to top Go down
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3461
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Tone controls   Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:47 pm

Hi Tim

I hope some of the tunees come up on this thread to join in. I have to run out but will be back in a bit to add to the conversation.

I think it will be good to discuss;

why they were made in the first place

what happened when we went discrete

what do we do to match our systems to the recorded code without adjustments

The greatest thing about this topic is, it's not on the Stereophile forum Laughing so we will be able to discuss the issues without distractions. Won't that be nice Smile

see you guys in a bit

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3461
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Tone controls   Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:28 pm

While I was out a few thoughts were fighting for my attention and the one that won out first was a question for all audiophiles.

Do you believe in "the audio code" Question If the recorded code is nothing more than the same flow with different values ranging from 20-20,000 that means something completely different from the recorded code being something that forms pathways in real time.

One is based on the idea that the current and audio signal is the same at all times, whereas the other is in the constant changing of values and interactions as the pathway is under influence. There's a few things that point to an ever changing signal that can be looked at outside of music that give the answer.

The easiest one is time. As we look at it, there is no going back and being at the exact same place or condition we were before. Second is motion. as much as people paint pictures in still time and motion we are spinning and traveling on this moving planet. None of our senses are based on "fixed" settings.

For myself there is too much evidence pointing to the audio code as being anything but fixed, and the recorded code is only fixed while on the playback storage unit, and I guess if we wanted to be technical even the storage units are affected by conditions.

If we look at the audio chain for what it really is, if we agree on what it is, than we have to say that movement is always taking place. This is the first step to understanding the why of tone and volume controls.

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
tmsorosk



Posts : 132
Join date : 2014-02-03
Age : 59
Location : Spruce Grove Canada

PostSubject: Re: Tone controls   Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:29 am

Michael Green wrote:
Hi Tim

I hope some of the tunees come up on this thread to join in. I have to run out but will be back in a bit to add to the conversation.

I think it will be good to discuss;

why they were made in the first place

what happened when we went discrete

what do we do to match our systems to the recorded code without adjustments

The greatest thing about this topic is, it's not on the Stereophile forum Laughing so we will be able to discuss the issues without distractions. Won't that be nice Smile

see you guys in a bit

To answer your first question " why were they made in the first place ".
I think in audio's earlier years folks didn't spend much time or give a whole lot of thought to matching components, you simply went out and purchased a piece of audio gear sometimes without even listening to it. For many music lovers brand recognition was a good enough reason to purchase a piece of kit. Many systems were powered by receivers so there were few options to improve the systems sonic abilities other than purchasing perceivably better speakers. Compare that to today's audiophiles who drag home every component they can find and spend hours even weeks changing things around till there in-home demo either works or in most cases doesn't. I spent over a year bringing home every amp I could get my hands on before finding just the right match. As it turned out, the amp I chose had no real sound ( sonic signature ) of it's own and I found myself listening to the artists rather than the equipment.
Today, with the advent of better quality and many different flavor's of cords, cables and interconnects it gives us the opportunity to fine tune a systems sound without adding extra circuits etc.

Tim


.
Back to top Go down
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3461
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Tone controls   Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:09 pm

It's always interesting for me to hear how different people view the hobby.

We see this from opposite ends, but that's Ok. Here's how I saw it.

I saw the hobby as being an extention of the recording world. All the guys I knew were extremely up on sound and had some pretty tricked out systems that sounded pretty nice. This would have been in the 70's and we owned B&W, Quad, Dalquist, Advent, Altec-lansing... Electronics ranged all over the place cause the tube rage was big time. I did Turntables, reel to reel 1/4" to 2", and 8 tracks and cassettes.

I can't remember if most did receivers or separates, but I don't think many of my friends did the bells and whistle types. We thought those components were made for people who didn't know any better. Extra parts and add ons. Our receivers had feet but our separates were rack (face plate) mounted. In my gang of listeners, if you had separates and they weren't in a rack and out of the way you were a tourist. Some had the big amps for the floor but they were a pain and you had to make stands for them. I had a mix of all of them, which as you know I ended up having so many that the only way to host them was to have a store Laughing .

There were some weird things that happened between the late 70's and early 80's. One of them that seemed strange was the faceplate game. One of the reasons why some of the audio components changed was because serious guys were doing faceplate mounting and you needed the chassis to be strong enough for this, but this came with a price. This meant that two versions of the same component had to be SKUed. A pro version and a home version. A few companies made the better sounding home versions that sounded better than the pro until the pro was mounted. This time period didn't last long because guys who were buying the stuff liked the thought that they had pro-looking gear now.

Important point (1) to note.

The heavy chassis did not come along for sound quality. They came along for fasion Exclamation The whole idea of the face plate for the high end component had nothing to do with sound. Heavy chassis were made for pro, who traveled with the amps and had them face plate rack mounted.

the EQ

The equalizer was a part of the recording and home industry so that the music could be recorded, store and on the other end could be played without having to rearrange the room conditions every time a piece of music was put on that had a different recorded code. This has always been common knowledge among more serious listeners. But, there was a crowd of people the "modern audiophile" who started to separate the industry into pro/home and different classes of home, low, mid and high ends. The equalizer, which was a serious audio component, got put on the shelf for something called "discrete" audio. The original idea was if you cut out the electronics of the EQ you would get a more pure sound. And it worked, to a point. The problem with cutting out these electronics was now there was no way to match the recordings to the rooms. Some of the high end designers such as B&K, Mark Levenson, Audio Research and many others tried to keep the tone control alive but the reviews of this "purist" approach moved so fast into popularity that the EQ was outlawed in the "high end" portion of the industry. Many of the companies still tried to keep the eq in there by giving a choice between tone control and bi-pass, but the negativity was so damaging if you had anything that looked like a tone control that it in a couple of years, way before anyone had a chance to present the down side, you were outlawed along with the EQ's themselves.

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3461
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Tone controls   Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:47 pm

When the EQ meets trash can approach was happening I was already into room control deeply, along with tuning components, so to me it was no big deal. But when I walked into stores and went to the shows, I was mortified at the bad sound affraid . Honestly I looked around and no one seemed to notice. Systems went from lush and powerful to closed in and tin can sounding within a year maybe two. I was dumb found till I went to a show in "87" and watched the audiophiles listening to the systems. That's when I noticed something, THEY WEREN"T LISTENING Exclamation They were going around talking in this new language that had very little to do with the music. The audiophile world had done it. They had separated themselves from the rest of the music world and created all their own myths about audio. The major show event the two CES's had to divide into two camps so this new snobby camp could have their own space.

I was in the middle of this happening so I can give an inside account pretty clearly. The High End Audio societies were throwing great reviews at me along with designer awards so I was a little stuck between the rocks as to how much I could say, but the problem was growing and I didn't see anyone standing up waving their hands scratch . And to be honest at the time we had most of the audiophile doing room treatments so maybe the problem was not that big. Then I started seeing something happening. Instead of the audiophile embracing the three parts of audio as they did in the past electrical, acoustical and mechanical, I saw the high end audio take a sharp nose dive. It was like it was all about fixing and matching the components, and the more the fixing went on the more stuck the systems were becoming. Huge cables and huge connectors, and everything became about massive parts and pieces and looks. The simple delicate audio signal passing without interference was truned completely up side down. It was a flat out race to build the most expensive systems. Now before anyone jumps me, I was asked to be a part of this so I speak from the truth and not fiction. I saw my friends doing this without a clue for the sound, and calling me to come make things sound good at their showroom.

So yes, my view on this issue is going to come from my point of view, but also by being there while the changes happened.

In the beginning it was about putting on a piece of music and matching it to the room. It became a completely different hobby when it took it's eyes off of each recording and put it's eyes on system matching, going after a system sound and not the recorded sound.

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
tmsorosk



Posts : 132
Join date : 2014-02-03
Age : 59
Location : Spruce Grove Canada

PostSubject: Re: Tone controls   Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:22 pm

" When the Eq meets trash can " good one, LOL.
Sounds like you endured quite a difficult time Michael. When I hear about things like that it makes me think that greed had to play a big role. How much can an audio manufacturer make on a plain looking 16 gauge speaker cable or a ho-hum 15 pound amp, the margins must be small. But over build something and add a custom made face plate and you can charge the world. I won't comment on the sound of this kind of audio jewelry as I'm sure there were good and bad.
I guess I saw the audio world in a somewhat different light. I've been upgrading since the mid seventy's, carefully and with my ears. Each trade up with the exception of a very few was a step forward, large amounts of money were spent at times but I always felt it was money well spent with no regret. Still upgrading by the way. Yes i've felt equipment has been for the most part a continual improvement. I'll use my experience with generations of Levinson amps, each new generation was better ( and more costly) than the one before. Was each one the best product I could have purchased at that price level, I can't say, but none was a disappointment.

Thanks for listening Tim


.
Back to top Go down
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3461
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Tone controls   Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:11 pm

Hi Tim

In 83 I was studio engineer, live performance engineer, performer and High End Audio store owner all at the same time, so you can imagine with all the changes taking place, what I saw going on Shocked

Watching an industry go through so many changes on so many levels and so fast, and many times not taking the time to consult the other parts, and adding in that greed was something to experience. I lost a lot of friends because of my choices over the next years. I went from some calling me the best engineer out there to black balled. I sacraficed being mentioned on a lot of recordings and still tiptoe around the pro-guys. The audiophile guys aren't as much of a big deal cause I'm so secure in my listening, but in both worlds when you start talking money people can and usually do turn on a dime to grab the money over sound.

I had a guy walk up to me at a party years ago and said "remember me, from A&M records, remember me", I said sure how you doing. Then he got into the story about my work at the studio, and how the upper ego guys acted. Well he told me he was picking up some LPs and got a MoFi version of Peter Frampton's Comes Alive and saw michael green on the back cover and started laughing. He said "it all comes around in the end".

So I guess in some small way if you stick to being true to the love of music first, the rest will follow. I'm glad I didn't trade my love for the $$$.

Thanks for letting me share my side of music history. I know everyone has their own view from what they saw, and together the many truths become the whole picture, and that's what is fun about this hobby and a huge industry and artform. There's nothing like it and it will never end. It will change, but never end and there will always be someone going just a little further than the rest in both the recording end and the playback.

thanks for sharing

_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
tmsorosk



Posts : 132
Join date : 2014-02-03
Age : 59
Location : Spruce Grove Canada

PostSubject: Re: Tone controls   Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:10 am

You have had a very interesting life with music and audio Michael, thank you for sharing your past and experience's.
Hope to hear more about your audio upbringing and the people you've met. One of my favorite audio site memories was when we conversed on the Stereophile site about our experiences with JGH, I think we were both cringing and laughing at the same time. The thought and vision of that wonderful old crow still makes me laugh.

 Have a wonderful day

.
Back to top Go down
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3461
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Tone controls   Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:55 pm

Hi Tim

I think J gave me a pass, so did Harry as far as it goes.

With J Gordon he was more into putting down some of the stupid things "in his own unique way" in audio from the audiophile/hobbyist recorder point of view, much like I did from the recording to playback point of view, so we actually hit it off pretty well. I think in some strange way he felt I was on his side, cause we both looked at the recordings with our passion about them on our sleeves and we both looked at the hobby rolling our eyes many times. Me being the engineer for Atlanta Sympony helped.

We both owned Sound Lab A-3's and spent time talking about the waves in rooms. In fact I gave him a term that he used  J said "Possibly, but I'm inclined to doubt it, because both systems generate pronounced pressure zones in the room corners, and since the corners are common to both room dimensions, they should be able to excite standing-wave modes in both directions through the rest of the room." 1992

I was and am all about "pressure zones", and designed the first Pressure Zone Controller. But I never pushed him for a review and I think that was part of what made things work between him and I. J Gordon wanted to do things his own way even if he knew himself there may be a better way, and he stuck to his own growth and guns. You can probably feel his presence with me writing this. A very stuborn soul, but with a dark light side that made him extremely charming.

The first time I remember him come to my room, I think it was Guy Lemcoe (not sure) who introduced us we had diner and I said "you guys need your now TV Show" they were so entertaining. I loved listening with Guy cause he is a very cool dude. He owned my speakers BTW. Anyway, I think because it was Guy who introduced us and probably gave the picture of me not being the typical audiophile designer, J Gordon didn't treat me as such. The first time we sat in my CES show room together I sat in the corner and he listened through the whole CD, looked at me and said "what can you do". I didn't know what he was asking really but I went up and made a little change on my tuning rack. He listened to almost that same CD the whole way through again. He stood up looked at me over his glasses and shook my hand "first time I ever heard a dynamic speaker mimic a Sound Lab".

We never got into how I should market my designs, and we never talked about a review. Some weird way we just became listening buddies when we met. He even showed my tuning tricks to others where he made the adjustments and the listener would sit there. He wasn't very good at tuning  Laughing but I think he got that this was something that was beyond the hobby of mix and match. At least he seemed to enjoy himself until the room would fill up with audiophiles and lining down the hall, to which he had a few words about  Mad

I liked what Steven wrote

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/j-gordon-holts-passing/


_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
tmsorosk



Posts : 132
Join date : 2014-02-03
Age : 59
Location : Spruce Grove Canada

PostSubject: Re: Tone controls   Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:26 pm

Charming. Thanks for sharing.

Have a grand New year all

Tim

.
Back to top Go down
Michael Green
Admin
avatar

Posts : 3461
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

PostSubject: Re: Tone controls   Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:43 pm

Happy New Year Tim Exclamation




_________________
michael green
PH 702 762 3245
Email mgtune@yahoo.com
Back to top Go down
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Tone controls   

Back to top Go down
 
Tone controls
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Sir Tommy’s v Niah Tone: Galaxy Ballroom, Brooklyn. 9th September 1983
» Ticka Tone HiFi: Montego Bay. 1983
» LEO TONE 1984 EAST NEW YORK BROOKLYN
» Reb Beach Says That Kirk Hammett Is "One Of The Worst Guitar Players I've Ever Heard"
» Ghettotone: 1983 (Lesley Lyrics, Papa Levi, Asher Senator & Smiley Culture!)

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Michael Green Audio Forum :: Audio Chat :: General Audio Chat, staying in tune-
Jump to: