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 Greetings from malaysia

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tjbhuler



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PostSubject: Greetings from malaysia   Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:34 pm

Hi Michael,

   I stumbled upon your website while browsing through the net regarding on acoustical products and tuning. I have been reading through the forums (tuneland.info) for the past 1 week and I am very happy to see your way of tuning to get the desired sound. 

  I have been a car audio guy for the past 11 yrs and tuning is my way of life. Regardless on others(car audio buddies) who have been raving about all the new products around giving them better tuning capabilities and changing equipment every 6 months or so.

   When it comes to tuning in car audio for me its always to get the position of the speakers properly aligned understand how the sound interacts with the car environment and re position it again if indicated and use various kind techniques and "materials" to control the vibrations, bass integration and to get tonal balance as correct as I can, all by listening with my ears(No RTA for me). Once I have achieved what I want then I'll re do every thing again just to improve on it.

 During this process I have learned that you can actually change the tonal balance of the sound to equivalent of changing an equipment just by tuning. Now that i realize this and reading through your forum on the ways of tuning has made me a happy camper. 

  Anyway enough of that, over the past 2 years I have been looking towards a nice home audio setup (marriage commitments doesn't give me the time or freedom to be in the car for hours, wife gets pretty annoyed  Rolling Eyes ) so I have finally pulled the trigger on a home audio setup.

   Reading through your forum have actually raised a lot of questions on types of products regarding on :

     a) which product should I use to address issues on the acoustic energy side of my room eg Room tune pack, PZC, Sound Shutters? Do you need me to let you know what I feel that is lacking before I can know on which product will suit me along with my room size, shape and setup?

    b) What is the price on all of those acoustic products? Malaysian currency rate has always been on the weaker side hence price has always been a factor for me and i guess every other Malaysians too  Wink .

    c) Also which product or combination of product will suit the best to address mechanical energy issues from the vibrations felt at the equipment rack(4 tier rack) to the equipment's below in the rack by the vibration produced from the equipment's and speaker itself ? Magic Wood, Harmonic Springs, Cones and feet?

    d) Again what would be the price like for all of these components?

    e) Also can I adapt your top loading rack tuning to my own rack or do I have to purchase your racks to be able to tune by top loading ?

Sorry for the long winded description and questions, hope my questions asked was clear and understandable. 

Thanks

Regards

Tj
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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:58 am


Hello TJ and welcome to Tuneland!

Michael will be the best to answer your questions -- and he and the Tune has indeed got answers to everything you are asking about tuning your room and equipment.

A good way to get ready is to send Michael a diagram of your room and some pictures too. The most common starting point is to treat the four upper corners of your room using the triangular pillows (the CornerTunes). There are some simple and low-cost basic set ups especially given the state of the Ringgit against the US$.

Mr Green has racks as well as the newer low platforms. I have used the ClampRack with the chipboard shelves and been very happy with it for several years -- though setting it up is an art! Sonic has now outgrown this and I am moving to using Brazilian Pine shelves or going to low equipment stands.

By top loading racking tuning, do you mean something we call top tuning which is an assembly over a piece of gear with a rod coming down to touch some spot of the circuit board?

What's the equipment you got now?

Again welcome!

Sonic

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tjbhuler



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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:26 am

hi Sonic,

Thanks for the warm welcome Very Happy . To answer your question yes the top loading tuning you mentioned is what i meant. It made a lot of sense to me regarding top tuning cause I was doing this for my car audio system since 2007.

I was using various kind of mdf wood block sizes and thickness on my passives x-over, eq's and amps it gave good positive results for me Very Happy . Also using pieces of folded paper in between Rca's inputs and outputs (yeah have done all sorts of unspeakable kinds of tuning for my car affraid )

Regarding about my new home audio equipment consist of :
CDP - ARC cdp ref 9
pre amp - ARC ref 5se
Amp - ARC ref 150
Speaker - Sonuf Faber Guarneri Evolution
Cables- Transparent Ultra MM2 (XLR and speaker cables)
Quantum Qb8 distribution block

I am still running in my system I've got about 100 hours in. I will definitely snap some pictures of my room its actually my hall size of 15'x20'x8.75'. However looking at the acoustic point of view, on one side of the wall there is a 55" TV and my hall in a L shape with stairs extending behind my listening position with a drop corner side walls around my ceiling (hope that made sense Rolling Eyes ) makes me wonder on how to go about it.

I have some idea after reading Micheal's pressure zones topic but before i start experimenting on it guess the best thing to do is to ask first and try later.

Regards

Tj
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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:31 am

Hi TJ

Yes pictures will be helpful.  As well as the placement diagrams. To post pix and diagrams send the JPGs to Michael requesting posting as well as marking the spots in the text you upload on this site.

Worth also letting Mr Green know what your walls, floor and ceiling are made of plus if your room is on the ground floor, what is above you and what is below (if your room is not on the ground floor).

What's the type of music you like and do list some of your favourite recordings.

I am curious about the paper between RCA inputs and outputs.

Sonic


Last edited by Sonic.beaver on Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:34 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : extra line, correct typo)
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:06 pm

Hi TJ

I am so sorry I missed your thread. For some reason I didn't get the notice through the forum. Thank you Sonic for the welcoming.

Welcome to TuneLand Exclamation

The first products that came to mind while reading were Platforms, Canopies and or Mini Racks, and PZC's. but as I thought more about this my thoughts started to shift some what.

CDP - ARC cdp ref 9
pre amp - ARC ref 5se
Amp - ARC ref 150
Speaker - Sonuf Faber Guarneri Evolution
Cables- Transparent Ultra MM2 (XLR and speaker cables)
Quantum Qb8 distribution block

What I'm going to do is lay this out as if it were my system and then we can go from there.

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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:25 pm

First (acoustical)


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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:49 pm

next

There's two things going on in my head when looking at the equipment list. One is Platforms all around. Second if this isn't possible is the HARP Rack.



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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:26 pm

Hi TJ

I'm going to do some drawings for you to look at, but I have a question at this point that will help me with a transfer plan. Can you give me some feedback on your floor surface and construction?

If we go the rack design we will want to make sure we have enough vertical space to allow you to do the tuning. With a transfer rack this big you want to be able to reach all the points of transfer. The Harp is perfect for these components but the question is Harp Stand (rack) or Harp Platforms with a raised sub-tuning network, or if you have a good sounding floor, going directly on the floor with the Platforms supported with some Tuning Blocks.

A 15' x 20' does give us creative floor space.

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tjbhuler



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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:08 am

hi michael

Thanks a lot i wil send you lots of pics on my hall setup Very Happy .
My floors are full tiles with a carpet at the center of my audio rig.

Sonic i use the papers which i have changed to anti static plastic bubble wraps which i took it from my computer graphic card. It did some clearing over the edges of my music it makes the sound more focus especially vocals but as usual cant use too much as it makes the sound too analytical(digital sounding scratch )
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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:06 am


Hi TJ

Tiled floor...very typical of dwellings in Malaysia and Singapore...walls of brick and concrete I suppose? Do you have a false ceiling of some plywood or celotext material? Knowing this will help the right of combination be dialed in for your room.

If you read my thread, you see how I been wrestling with a room that has parquet over concrete, brick walls all round and a RC ceiling. This sort room causes problem signatures that are narrow in frequency and large in amplitude. You heard of my BOO! problem?

May I suggest you sit in your listening chair and clap your hands and shout BOO! a few times and post what sort of sound you hear...echoes? Emphasized frequencies? Overhang? Try it at the highest range of your voice and as low as you can go and tell us what you hear from your room as is. This will be your baseline for the Tuning.

Michael (I read) walked round a hall saying BOO! and making clicking noises with his fingers then with Sound Shutters tamed the whole room for a price far lower than other consultants who wanted for complex solutions.

The beauty of the Tune is how it takes the simplest and lowest feasible cost path to do more than other acoustic treatments claim to achieve!

Shall we get started with your room?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:41 pm

15'X20'X8.75'
















































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tjbhuler



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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:37 am

Hi Micheal and my fellow tuners,

Sorry for the poor pic quality i took it using my cell phone i have no proper camera Embarassed .
As you can see from the pictures my hall is like Sonic said a typical everyday Malaysian setting. It is a tiled floor with brick walls and over the sides of the ceiling as you can see is a false drop skirts made of plaster ceiling(gypsum material).

Over the left from screen view i have a 55" TV with a wood plank base and below it is a built in cabinet(to keep my decoder and AVR) with glass panels.





From right the space continues to my dinning place(dining table is a full glass top with wooden legs) and ends to the dry kitchen.

The side of my sofa there is a black wooden plank partition and back of my sofa(listening position) is continuation of my hall with a staircase on the left



and right of it is the entrance of my house.



Right now my speakers are positioned 4'(measured center of the midbass cone) from the front wall and 3.5' from the side walls they are about 7' apart. My listening position is 8.5' away (i am aware about the typical triangle but I'm trying it from a slight distance to understand the difference it makes once I rearrange the speakers)



As of now my right side of the speaker from screen view gives a very nice enveloped sound past the speaker boundaries but my left side the sound doesn't pass the boundary of my speaker(feels compressed). It does give a slight 3D feel but noting great as what Micheal and other fellow tuners have achieved. The sweet spot is at the center but if I move 5" away from the side the focus goes to the speakers. As i said the speaker at the right disappear nicely but the left side you know its presence.

I will try to walk around(clicks and Boo's) and give my report on how it sounds from all positions. For now there is a slight compressed sound over the left and an open feel sounding from the right. But i have not looked at the others yet. System is still in its infancy stage and the sound is changing day by day.

Thanks

Regards

TJ
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:50 pm

Hi TJ

Your pictures are great (better than mine with a good camera). Your also doing a wonderful job of describing the sound, which helps me get the sound inside of my head.

I'm looking forward to your tests and have already started on some drawings.

the fun is about to begin Cool

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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:32 am

Hi Michael and fellow tuners,

Today I spent a good 2 hours on digesting and trying to understand how the sound is acting up with my hall space. I shall try to be as descriptive as i can Laughing .

Right as now i feel a lot of issues over the left side of my speaker(from screen view) there is a lot of compress feel when i walk around and when i do the Boo's and click it sound quite dead from high to low pitch there is no extension. As i move in a lateral plane(from left to right) that compress feel reduces and it feels more open up to the end over right side. This makes sense to me as the space to the right is open continuing to my dining area and kitchen.

Now as i walk to the right from the initial left side of my speakers there is more extension and an airy feel (when i do the Boo's and clicks) but also there is some echo i can hear over the right.As i proceed to the dining side the Boo's and clicks becomes thinned it has no weight when i do the Boo's and clicks. Also the echoes are intensified.

Now this "sweep" in a lateral plane is done from left to right of my speakers at every 2 feet of distance from my speakers. And from my observation the findings that i have described above is the same but at 4 feet onwards till 6 feet is where i feel the most intensity. 5 feet from the center of my speaker(which is 3.5 feet from my listening position) there is a marked discrepancy of closed(compress) and open feel(left to right) when i stand at that point. As I move behind( towards my listening position aka "sweet spot") the intensity lessens but still do feel it though.

Now for behind my listening position there is a good amount of space which is about 10 feet in length from the wall to my sofa(listening position) i can hear a lot of echoes an openness feel and the sound is actually "clearer" Rolling Eyes .

I forgot to mention also that behind my speakers towards my front wall the sound is also the same however the intensity is markedly reduce and it is confined only to the corners i do feel the build up of the sound energy hence a dead sound at the left corner and some pressure build up at the right corner with minimal extensions(Boo's and clicks) the center behind my speakers is actual quiet it feels like the volume has been reduced by 50%. I hope Michael could shine some light on this aspect of my description because i am puzzled on how is the sound interacting at this particular area, as you can view from the pictures i have sent there are some slits at the ceiling which is made of wood which is over the right side but the left side is a brick ceiling scratch

Well I hope my description is able to paint a picture on how the sound/energy is interacting in my hall and other areas.
I feel there is nothing much to describe on the tonality or pin point instruments location and staging of my speakers in view it is still running in and all these issues i have mentioned is definitely affecting it.

Thank You

Regards

TJ
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:53 am


A very thorough description TJ!

Clearly you have the "Two Halves Problem" where you have different acoustic signatures on each side of the room. Sometimes the cause may not be the obvious thing we assume from looking at pictures.

I had something of this Problem too - my Left room side was the one that was correct but the Right room side had much too pronounced ambience yet the sound was somewhat rounded off. How it was solved is a saga in itself.

In comparing your room and Sonic's, I have to remember that Mr Green taught Sonic that ceiling height is Big Factor in the equation. Your lower ceiling compared to my 10.5 ft+ room height makes for a very different set of strengths and problems. It may make your room a lot easier to deal with compared to mine but on the other hand the many run-off areas like the dining area, the staircase all opening to other parts of your dwelling makes for some interesting things the Tune will have to address.

Its glass behind the curtain (behind the Sonus speakers) -- is it a thick and heavy one or a light fabric?

Let's see what Michael observes and recommends.

What sort of music do you listen most to? What in the sound of the Sonus Fabers attracted you to buy them? Audio Research no need to explain, of course!

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:13 am

Hi Sonic and fellow tuners,

Yes it looks like I have "Two Halves Problem" two ends of audio spectrum in a room. As for the curtain its moderately thick not one of those real thick ones but enough to keep the light and heat away through my glass windows as the sun hits that particular area and makes the hall pretty warm.

I listen mostly towards blues, instruments and lots of vocals(from various kinds of artist) such as Jennifer warnes, Sade, Amanda McBroom, Chrystal Gayle, Rebecca Pidgeon, Stevie Ray vaughan, Gary Moore, Muddy Waters and also classical Indian Music (tabla,sitar,tolk),ghazals. It is something very special and magic to hear and get moved over such artist especially with a glass of the finest whisky in one hand in the late hours of the night Wink .

Hearing instruments especially guitars, sitar,tablas and saxophones/trumpets brings me down to hear every single finger pluck of the guitar/sitar string as realistic as it can be and also the resonance the feel of the pressure from each pluck, the throaty sound of the musician blowing the sax/trumpet basically you get what i mean Smile.

I had a chance to audition a fair amount of speakers ranging from Dynaudio C1, Raidho C1.1, thiel C 2.7, focal utopia and sonus with few brands of equipments (ARC, aesthetix,mcintosh and pass labs) that i finally found the best synergy i got was when i paired the sonus with Arc it gave me the best synergy when it came to tonality which i felt was fairly neutral(dyns was also in the same boat) at times it felt slightly dark and thats how i liked it Very Happy . It hit all the right notes from every instrument that i heard when combined with Arc.

All these mixes of brands audition took me 1.5 years before i finally committed to SF and arc combo. Also to be honest there was a lot of pure beauty when i had a look at the Guarneri that got me in love with it at first sight.

Thanks

Regards

Tj


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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:28 pm

OK, here we go Smile

Q's

What does it sound like with the drapes open?



What does it sound like if you flip the setup, using the TV wall as your front wall?



You said the side by the right speaker is open, I can't see this view can I? I'd like to see that open area if I could.

Also what I'm hearing (if I'm following you) is an interaction between your furniture and the ceiling design. It sounds to me like there is one sound inside of the ceiling furniture area and another outside.

What I would like to do is take you on an acoustical field trip of your place.

And I want to start moving toward tuning those components.

If you could, do you have something you can put under the speaker stands that would raise them up 4-5" and tell me what you hear? Reason I'm saying this is "tile" flooring. With the Faber's there will be a height that snaps into place when you hit it. All Faber's do this.  When you find that place we should plan on making platforms for your speakers.

Also it sounds like your equipment doesn't necessarily want to be on a rack inbetween the speakers. If your going to stay facing the way you are we are going to need to use the space you have for acoustics, and that means being careful of things that are at the same plane with them in the room.



I'm probably putting too much in one post, but if you do stay facing this way, we are going to want to remove the energy from your right open area and build it in your listening area. Which means PZC-FS and maybe a SAM.

Also could you start talking at the top of the steps and tell me how it changes as you come down?




I get to the soffits before long.

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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:01 pm

Hi Michael and fellow tuners

To answer your questions when i open the drapes the sound is hollow at the center and a loss of imaging.Its like a hole at the center of my soundstage.

I did send you the picture to the right side of my speaker which is continuing to my dining room. I will resend it to you again. Regarding about flipping up my setup to face the TV as my front wall was also something I was planning to do but didn't materialise yet cause I wanted to see how it goes with my current setup.

I do have some cones but it won't be able to support the weight of the speakers(it weights 75kg per speaker and stand together) I will try to find some wooden planks and report to you on how it sounds elevated.
The most significant change I feel when I come downstairs is gradient of an openness feel to a more dense feeling. The sound has a much more open feel to it when I'm upstairs without emphasise towards certain audio frequency spectrum.

Please do ask me all the questions you need as it will be important for you to get the most accurate and detailed understanding of my room acoustics. I am here to learn follow the right way to go about to achieve my audio bliss.

Thank you

Regards

Tj
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:38 pm

Hi TJ

Sorry, missed it first time around Embarassed



TJ

"To answer your questions when i open the drapes the sound is hollow at the center and a loss of imaging.Its like a hole at the center of my soundstage."

mg

excellent

This means we have energy in your front soundstage pressure zone waiting to be tuned.

TJ

"I do have some cones but it won't be able to support the weight of the speakers(it weights 75kg per speaker and stand together) I will try to find some wooden planks and report to you on how it sounds elevated. "

mg

Good I'd rather hear wood under.

TJ

"The most significant change I feel when I come downstairs is gradient of an openness feel to a more dense feeling. The sound has a much more open feel to it when I'm upstairs without emphasise towards certain audio frequency spectrum."

mg

BINGO Exclamation  So far we're batting a thousand, good job.

Now this one is a big step, but I need to use your ears.

Go to the best sounding (most balanced) place on the stairs or another part of your house (don't worry at this time about the "sonic's boo") and lets play with what it takes to make the listening area sound as good. No need to use anything but your voice at this point.

What we want to do is find out how much energy we are going to have to work with.

TJ

"openness feel to a more dense feeling"

mg

What I want to find out also is where do you as a listener feel the most comfortable. Sonic for example reacts to Boo, others react to dead. What do you like about the best sounding place in your house and where does it fall between open and dense?

Finding that perfect space for you to be in is going to help a lot. Then we will have a reference (one of many) to go back to as we begin to tune.

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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:09 am


Hi TJ

Wow! Sonic is learning a lot from this M Green-guided room analysis. What strikes me is the change as your voice goes from “open” to “dense” as you walk down the stairs. When untuned, my room has far less contrast than that at different heights off the floor.

Sonic

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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:56 am

Hi Michael and fellow tuners

Sorry for the late reply had to work in late today Crying or Very sad .
So I spent some time over mapping out the boundaries with my voice and my wife too  Laughing  from an open/dense to a close/airy feel(vice versa) the distance i measured was using my listening position as a reference point and findings came back as such :
Front

When i walked towards the front wall at a  distance of 4.5ft i felt my voice(wife too) from a slight close and dense feel to an even more closed sounding with an emphasis over the lower frequency of my voice. As i continued to walk towards the front wall now at a distance of 6ft voice started to open up, it felt clearer.As i proceeded to the far right corner it sounded closed/dense with a slight hum. As i proceeded to the far left corner 10ft there was obvious standing waves as my voice sounded deep with a hum it felt closed(more hum and dense than the far right corner)

Back  

From behind the listening position the boundary/transitional zone between close to open was at a distance of 3.5ft as i proceeded to walk toward the back wall at a distance of 7.25ft my voice opened up more but there were echoes heard with an emphasis of higher frequency. Also voice became slightly sharper. Interesting

Right

Proceeding to the right(entering to dining area) the transitional zone was approximately 11ft from listening position it opened up also with an emphasis of higher frequency but here voice was thinned and the energy from my voice was reduced noticeably at a distance of 18ft and with much echoes heard.

Left

Heres where things got interesting at about 4.5ft to the left of the listening position(TV wall) my voice sounded the BEST it sounded full bodied rounded clear(a definite balance here) with no emphasis of whatsoever frequencies i didn't have speak up loud for the voice to be heard clear. My wife her voice sounded the same as mine lovely and clean Laughing .

Stairs

Proceeding to the stairs as i walked up the stairs(lower staircase) after the 5th step voice open up it became clearer with slight emphasis over the higher frequency and echo. However this sounded the 2nd BEST spot for my voice it was still full with good body but there was a slight ringing heard. As i proceeded to the upper staircase there was pronounce echoes and hum to my voice.

Now from this i can see there is pattern that I need to still grasp and understand what is happening and how is it interacting. This exercise has managed me to identify 2 good listening spot as mentioned above. Funny thing is that looking at these areas there are full of nearby obstacles eg : TV,wooden pillars, rug, sofa, wall and ceiling which i thought it would obstruct the sound of my voice but instead it produced the best sounding area.

This calls me to think for an early advancement to reposition my setup as what Michael mentioned before (What does it sound like if you flip the setup, using the TV wall as your front wall?)

I haven't had the time yet to place wooden plank under the Sonus speakers. Will get it done soon and report back.

Thanks

Regards

Tj
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:34 pm

PZC's and Platforms are in your future Smile

But before this, I would like to tune the above areas of your soffits. I would also like to suggest blinds for your window instead of drapes.

Can I take a look at the window please?

When we're done your going to feel like you are in your own private concert hall.

One thing that you'll want to talk to Harold about sooner then later is an order of Floorstanding PZC's. This will help with our voicing and zoning. You might also want to get RT Squares so we can voice up those soffits.

We can work with the foam in the meantime.

just getting started Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:47 am

HI Michael

Allright but i am not sure how many floorstanding PZC's and RT squares do i need for an initial setup.
I might have made a mistake as i did not mention earlier that i actually have installed blinds for my windows previously it is behind the curtains Embarassed the reason for the curtain is due to the heat that dissipates into my living room during the daytime. Windows are arranged in a concave shape. I will snap o picture of my windows.
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:18 pm

Great thanks.

How much space do you have between the front of the soffit and the glass. If you can a pic of the glass and a pic of the blinds.

On the PZC-FS so far I'm seeing 5, and a A-Room-in-a-Box (RT Squares).

I see soffit tuning, front stage, boundary and side stage correction being one of the first things along with some tonal balancing.

In the long run we will more than likely want to add wall mount PZC's and Sound Shutters to balance things.

Also I would like to get your ideas of Rack vs Platforms.

Since there are several things to look at we should start making a shopping list and add or delete based on how far you wish to go.

I'll do some drawings this week.

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tjbhuler



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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:16 pm

hi Michael and fellow tuners

I have already sent you pictures of my windows and blinds(wooden blinds) to your mail. As for the space from the front of soffit to the windows is around 4.5 feet in length and the width of my windows is 9 feet. As i would like to mention also that my windows are positioned in a concave manner.

Thanks

Regards

Tj
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