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 Greetings from malaysia

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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:51 pm

Excellent! Now we can look at the system and room.

Sit and listen a minute, then stand up and tell me what you hear different.


BTW yes, very similar. Only what I do if I feel me closing in is, I will sit quiet (straight up and down) and only breath through my nose. When I breathe I'll do it very slow and gentle trying to do it without any air rushing through the nose and letting it open my stomach. Then I exhale super slow, and pinch my nose at the end of the exhale, not adding any pressure if I can and count to ten. Then I release my nose and try again to barely take in the air, super slow. The key is no heavy breathing. I'll do this again and count to 20 when I'm holding my breath. Basically I'm making my body save the CO2 and getting more O2 to the brain.

After I do this I go into listening mode where I breathe 3-5 times a minute. I'll also sometimes do a carrot juice or apple slices about a half hour before a session if I can. I don't like doing the blowing thing while holding the nose cause it makes my hearing imbalanced, but if I do the slow breathing and get my O2 up, it's like turning on the listening lights for me. Now I probably do it without thinking more than not.

anyway, let me know what happens sitting vs standing

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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:45 am


Now that is a learning for Sonic -- Michael describing his breathing technique and what to eat before a listening session done seriously. I have used nose blowing to clear the ears, maybe this should not be done after all. It gives a clarity but for the first 15 minutes Sonic finds the frequency balance is off -- too much mids. The slow breathing may do the clearing more slowly but gently without unbalancing the hearing.

Sonic also sees pictures of audiophiles listening on various websites and notices glasses of wine and beer at the listener's side tables. I am told by physicians that alcohol shaves dBs off the high frequency range of the hearing.
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:59 am

Hi Michael and fellow tuners,

Sorry for the delayed response currently I am outstation and am unable to assess the system in sitting and standing position but will be back by tuesday and will report in ASAP Smile .

Sonic :Sonic also sees pictures of audiophiles listening on various websites and notices glasses of wine and beer
         at the listener's side tables. I am told by physicians that alcohol shaves dBs off the high frequency range
         of the hearing.

Hi Sonic you are partially correct regarding alcohol influence towards hearing loss, it is not on high frequency but more towards the lower frequencies particularly the most sensitive frequency for human hearing 1 khz (500 hz-1630 hz). What alcohol does is basically it numbs the auditory nerve (vestibulocochlear nerve) so you will end up having less hearing over the vocal range frequencies, it is usually temporary if categorise as moderate drinker but if a person is a chronic drinker yes it can cause permanent hearing loss this condition in known as ototoxicity. Casual drinkers may have this issues too but by that time it occurs they would already naturally have hearing loss due to old age Laughing .

Cheers Cool

Tj
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:54 pm

Hi Guys

I am far from a doctor Laughing but have always been somehow in-tune with changes in sound and how the body plays a huge role in what we hear. I think this is do to having music playing only feet away from me 24/7 for so many years, and also playing acoustical games. Because of this I have made many choices in designing not so much at the moment of mental strain, but more in a relaxed mode of concentration. Certain things can be heard stomping into a room, but more tip toeing in I discovered many years ago.

Early on in my engineering some thought of me as a snob till they got to know me, and realized it was just me going into my listening mode. Many times the other techies would be in the room fighting over something, and what got me mad was when someone got me out of vibe (mode). The snob in me comes out when I am derailed from the zone of being in-tune. It isn't something that I do to be mean, but more me expressing I have been knocked off of my pedestal of concentration. Again for those who know me as Natch (my engineering name), I walked around the place as if I was high Laughing (natch for naturally high). It wasn't till years later when I looked things up that I realized in some way I "was" high while in my zone.



I didn't know what it was back then, but I knew I needed to be in a certain zone and frame of mind to hear things better, becoming one with the music. Thanks to the internet things make more sense about my own listening patterns and weirdness now. I didn't study it first and try to do it, but after doing things certain ways "naturally" because they fit me, I then would find some of the reasons why, like the above pic of the brain getting more, or being robbed of thinking food.

a side note

Ever see these audiophiles doing A/B tests? They get to a place where they have a hard time telling differences after a while. It's not that the differences are no longer there, but they have changed the way their brain functions during the tests, and they're not aware of what they have done to their own abilities of listening during the time of testing.

fun stuff

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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:48 am

Hi Michael and fellow tuners,

Finally got back and did spend some time on the system and my short and concise listening impression from what Michael asked for is as below :

Sitting Position

Vocals : sounded focus , more energy, clear, well defined, realistic size of vocals with emotion and the
            presence is more there.

Instruments : better details, more energy and extensions heard, placements can be identified.

Bass : more energy, can follow the bass tunes with some extensions but no lower notes heard.  

Soundstage : 3D presence can be felt, able to recognise placements of instruments better, not much depth,
                    height is in between tweeter level to ceiling, width as previously stated left side slightly past
                    speaker boundary but can hear sound coming from it and right side the speaker partially
                    disappear and at times can't hear anything coming from it. Overall sound is more dense and
                    filled at the right side in comparison to the left side of the stage.


Standing Position

Vocals : As I stand the vocals follow up to my standing height, however the focus is less defined and energy  
           is less. Vocals not clear sounded deep no more 3D, less realistic and bloated in size and slightly
           rough(grainy).

Instruments : Does not follow up to my listening height it sounds lower than my standing height, less energy
                    and details somewhat hollow sounding.

Bass : Slightly less energy than sitting but doesn't sound detail and can't follow the bass notes clearly.

Soundstage : No more 3D only 2D, with a sense of sound sucked in to the front wall. Vocals are still centered
                   with ill defined borders, instruments placement are now confined to the left and right speakers
                   only. I hear vocals at the level of my standing height but instruments are heard below my
                   standing height. No width extensions. Overall it feels like i have 2 different heights of stage
                   vocal at my standing height and instruments below my standing height.

Hope the description towards my listening impression did made some sense and able to give an overall understanding as what Michael wanted. As what has been described above for my sitting position the sound is only a comparison to my standing position but in actual fact it still sounds far from great Embarassed

Thanks

Regards

TJ
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:34 pm



Time to take a look at how best to use.

4) PZC-FS
5) PZC-MEC
10) RTSQ
24) LTR-Blocks

mg puts on his thinking cap

study

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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:03 am


Hi tjbhuler!

Thanks for your nice comments on my main thread. As you read Sonic's journey you'll have to be careful of the zig zag that occurs as I learn the tune. As there is progress, there are also mistakes and dead-ends. But remember my situation is somewhat unique in that we dealing with dipole loudspeakers.

A few things to consider as you get tuning:

a. the space between the loudspeakers has been referred by Michael to be the "Soundstage Tuning Zone". Early Roomtune documents recommend placing the Clamprack here to anchor and focus the centre of the soundstage. If your soundstaqe is stubbornly stuck in a banana shape, you'll have to work to free it and let it come forward. All my tunes with FS-PZCs and FS-DRTs in the middle did all sorts of things good and not good but did not achieve the pushing forward of the middle. It was only when I had the two racks removed (and the people who carried them out were complaining how heavy those things were) that the stage freed up. The long table, Brazilian Pine boards, the Rega TT and the CD player together weigh a lot less than ONE empty three-shelf Hemlock Clamprack with 2 foot mild steel rods. And there were two racks in my system. So mass affects the stage or squashes it.

b. the combination of a device on top of Low Tone Redwood blocks that then rests on Brazilian Pine then grounds through a coupling device from Michael (might be AAB1x1 or more Low Tone Redwood) is a wonderfully harmonious combination.

c. are there ports on the rear of your Sonus Fabers? If the port is not filled with something like fibre to damp the port, there is a significant amount of energy coming out of that port particularly if you listen loud and bassy. If this is the case, perhaps you might want to test and regard your Sonus Fabers as if they are dipoles in the operating range of the port.

Port tuning and modifying its interaction with a wall in proximity to the port is something that is done (though something Sonic has no experience with, but I am sure Michael has), which is why some speaker manufacturers include some sort of plug for the port of their products if these were used within a certain distance from walls. To test this, place something like a FS-DRT or equivalent about 3 ft behind the port of your speakers but something not so large as to form a "wall surface" behind the speakers which affects the overall sound of the speaker. In Sonic's interactions with other friends who have ported speakers, the port can be heard when played loud.

Sonic

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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:26 am

Hi Sonic,

Thanks for the reply, yes there is a hard foam stuffed in the port keeping it smaller than the actual size of the port. I did place the SF about 2 feet from the wall and it sounded bassy lots of overhanging made the overall presentation muddy so i moved it away to 4 feet and now almost 5 feet bass is tuneful and clear but less energy.

Walking up to the back of the speakers can definitely feel the pressure opening up and less dense in comparison to the front (after moving it from 2ft to 5ft from the front wall).

I am still learning and trying to soak up as much as i can from Sonic's thread and Heindl's too (You guys are amazing Smile ). Each time I read on Sonic's thread, makes feel like I want to dive in and start my tuning journey immediately Very Happy .

However my story can only start once all the tuning tools have arrived and more at a later stage Razz . As of now I can only play with cardboards and wooden planks just to get a rough idea what is happening. I am trying to map out my pressure zones in the living room and hear the shifting effects with cardboards and wooden planks. Nice experience so far.

Sonic's understanding on depth of soundstage is so true for me, as lots of my friends have that concave sounding stage and perceive it as depth with all sorts of add ons and theories describing more on their systems producing stage depth  Rolling Eyes, which is something I feel is so awkward (When I hear their system at home I keep running back to my car system to cure my ears Laughing).
I know it is rude of me to comment as such  Embarassed  especially when they have invited me to their houses to listen but I can't appreciate such terms if it doesn't make sense and make my ears smile especially knowing how much of money they have spent on their system.

As of now diving in to home audio has made me realised that it is not so different than what I have been facing in car audio, which is good because it is the journey that has kept me in this hobby till now Very Happy .

Regards

Tj
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:30 am

Hi TJ

We talked here http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t302-sound-basics but thought I would also bring it back to your setup as well.

When you get your tools, the one thing I would be very interested in would be to hear your room with just a chair in it. Then the one love seat, then work your way up to the full furniture setup.

My gutt tells me your wanting a near-field sound but because of the furniture your having to go more mid-field.

If the furniture stays then we have to figure out how to trick your room's pressure zones. This will take some time, but will be fun.

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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:03 am

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the answers Michael just finished reading your reply. One thing I am totally amazed with Michael is having the ability to read tunees mind spot on Shocked

Michael has just spoken out what I am planning to do in the next few days time Very Happy, moving my furniture out and around to see and hear how does the pressure zones change and interact with my furnitures as have been reading through Sonic's and Heindl's thread have given me inspiration of my own.

And once again yes Michael I am a nearfield kind of guy if that is what you call a guy who is crazy for vocal intimacy and music blasting off at my face and all around me. The feel of being at the center of the music stage and being attacked with beautiful harmonic in every direction Laughing .

I have been listening to SRV "tin pan alley" and Big Mike Griffin "I can't Get Enough" for the past 3 days and my wife thinks I am possessed Laughing.

Regards

TJ
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:30 am

A good type of possession Cool

looking forward to your next findings



study

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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:10 am


Hi tjbhuler

How's your experiments with moving the furniture about?

Nearfield is a good idea and it is a way to reduce the effects of a room by getting as much direct sound from the speakers to our ears before the "wash" from the room gets to us.

The thing is that many speakers (Michael's speakers might be the world's only exception) have a minimum listening distance. Less than this distance and the drivers no longer blend and the speaker loses coherency.

How far is this? Varies from speaker to speaker Sonic is sure. One German manufacturer gives 5.7 ft for their product. Some big and tall behemoths with a large number of dynamic drivers may require more distance from you. Mini monitors like the LS3/5a were designed for close in listening and your Sonus Fabers with their closely spaced drivers could let you get closer. Also I found as you get nearfield, the toe in/angling might be more critical and noticeable in effect.

With my partially tuned room, my Magneplanars need at least 6 ft to be coherent. Now at the present 9.75 ft they blend extremely well. If my room were fully tuned Sonic could bring them closer by a lot.

One thing with the Tune is no worry about listening off-axis. Sonic knows test reports that show how a tweeter's response falls away off axis. In a tuned set up you can go very far of axis and still get good treble.

How to know when we are too close to speakers? To Sonic, listener fatigue sets in quickly, the sound is wrong, everything sounds artificial and too upfront. The increased "details" are not "details" at all but unnatural spotlighting.

Let us know how this experiment turns out for you.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:05 am

Hi Sonic.

Thanks for your advise on nearfield listening will definitely look at the hints Sonic gave if it is too close for comfort Smile . Never thought of regarding nearfield with more on axis placement of the speakers (will give it a go).

So yesterday I did some moving around

a) got the cdp out from between the speakers and placed it over the right end corner, the cables was slightly stretched out but not under tension and moved the amp more towards the left between my speakers (giving it a more equal spacing for my left speaker to amp to pre amp and right speaker). So as of now between my speakers you have only the amp and pre amp and as for the cdp is not in between the speakers but out over the right side.

b) secondly I moved up my speakers forward towards my listening position by 3".

c) Reorganized my cables to ensure no acute bends also isolating the power cables from my balance and speaker cables(trying to keep it from crossing each other).

Listening impressions was very positive I felt the stage opened up, it sounded and felt less congested. Vocals was clearer than before with slightly more extended highs making it feel airy. The strumming of  SRV's guitar from Tin Pan Alley was felt more can hear better transient speed and attack which I felt a very much drive to listen again and again Laughing . Also the weight on the guitar was lesser(lighter made it less darker than before). The bass felt less, more like a roll off at somewhere 100hz (my rough guess  Wink ), in other words the bass energy and presence was lesser but more tuneful.

As for the stage wise I gained more height than width not so banana stage sounding but also not projecting out more(3D). It felt like more of a straight line extending from right speaker to approx 2 feet away from the left speaker boundary. Layering and placement of the drummer(which is one of the most important feature to listen for in this song) was also not change as compared to previously(meaning not much Sad ).

Now after this I decided to move the speakers even more forward by 5" and yes Sonic's AWAS came to picture it began to sound blurred and images collapsed soundstage felt hollow at the center and vocals sounded bloated up( Sonic's nearfield explanation was correct regarding the "the sound is wrong").
So backed it up to it's previous placement. This got me thinking  Idea regarding Michael's post on when i asked about placement of speaker. Placing it around the edges of PZ regions i guess (Care to comment on it Michael Razz ).

Today my plan was to move the speakers more laterally increasing the width to 10' apart (from 8.25 feet) just to size up my PZ (Trying to improvise here Wink ) and also to move out my side sofa and side coffee table but was unable to do so. Work commitments just screws up my passion for music and tuning Rolling Eyes. Will try to make time tomorrow to reposition the speakers and furnitures and hopefully will be able to report in on my findings by this coming thursday Embarassed.

I will also want to adapt Sonic's Boo (if it is ok with Sonic) and report in on that too. I have been "Booing" around my listening space to get an idea and understanding regarding my surrounding listening space. Also it may help Michael, Sonic and other tunees who have been accustomed to Sonic's Boos (I feel there is a need to standardize on what we listen for and how to interpret our findings so that it is easier for others to understand what we mean  Smile )

Regards

TJ
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:25 am

Hi my Fellow tuners

Have been listening to some of my favourite blues songs, thought i would like to share some of it  :

!  ) Mike Griffin & The Unknown Blues Band - Back On The Streets Again ( I'd Rather Go Blind )
2 ) Chris Bell & 100 Blues (Elevator To Heaven )
3 ) Chris Beard (All Night Long)
4 ) Wolf Mail (Rainbow Bird Blues)
5 ) Wolf Mail ( Hello )
6 ) Chris Bell & 100 Blues (Cold Hearted Woman)
7 ) Pete Alderton  (Running For Cover)
8 ) SRV (Tin Pan Alley)
9 ) Dion - Tank Full Of Blues
10) Jody Williams - You Left Me in The Dark
11) Ndidi Onukwulu - No, I Never
12) Magic Slim & The Teardrops  (So easy to love you)

Not to forget Mark Knopfler (Long Cool Girl & Wherever I Go ) not a blues one but oh so so nice duet and well thought out music had to list it along Very Happy

Regards

TJ
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:41 am

Hi Michael and fellow tuners,



I have been busy for the past 1 week didn't had the time to task out Michael's orders. Finally I musted up some time and energy to move out some of my furnitures and also repositioned my cdp forward to balance out from the back right and left end of the walls behind my speakers.

Lifting all those sofas and my coffee table was a back breaking job of two (me and a friend) but unfortunately I couldn't keep out both of my sofas (replace it with a simple chair) as there was no place to store it temporarily so I moved out one of it (the one that was flanking over the right side of my speaker) and kept the other at my listening position. Still keeping it as equal as I could from right to left. And my last move was to roll up my rug to keep my tiled floor bare.

VOICE TEST
On my initial evaluation without any music being played and just by my voice the "Boo test" was performed  Smile . Before removing the sofa it was more of Boo! slightly damped (darker tone) no extensions, however it sounded fuller with a good body from my voice tone. After moving out the sofas, carpet and coffee table now it is more open up and it sounds more like Booo (lighter tone with more air) the extensions at the end of "Boo" was more pronounced. My voice tone lifted up by a notch making it sound less fuller than before but still acceptable as the Boo's had lows,mids and highs more balanced than before. All this was performed me sitting at my listening position.

Next was to stand up and walk towards the center between speakers till I was standing behind the speakers. Results showed Boo's sounded slightly lighter as I stood up but after that it remained the same as I proceeded to walk towards the center of the speakers. Once behind the speakers the Boo's sounded even lighter in tone there was no lows or body ( didn't sound nice ) not focus to the center of my physical body, something like when listening to a tone that is out of phase  Shocked .

I walked towards the left side of the speaker the Boo's tone was now getting slightly heavier and focus, back to how it was when I was sitting down at my listening position. Towards the right side the tone got heavier than the left but not much maybe a tad more (the lows was same as mids but the highs was slightly lesser than the left side). Walking back from my listening position towards the back wall was all light in tone with echoes with slight ringing.

All this got me going for a second round with just my voice and Boo Test, results was the same on all accounts. Now after resting for a while I popped in a CD and began my listening with the audio rig.

AUDIO RIG TEST

First thing I noticed music was more lively than before. It took a totally different path of music where it sounded lighter on all accounts. Vocals is clearer but slightly grainy at the edges and at times it felt slightly tense especially around the 2kHz-5kHz as if the volume was increased at that particular frequencies Shocked . Bass was much much lighter didn't sound right it was missing lots of info from 100hz and below. Before this drums or bass guitars playing i could hear and sense that palpable bass but now it is not there Sad .

The highs was more pronounced but not ringy or piercing this was really nice I could hear more details than before. Combining all three gave a more lively sound but it just didn't sound right. Mike Griffin's voice was too bright and edgy, so here is where i decided to bring back the rug in and that edginess disappeared made it sound less lively but better than before hence more balance.

Sound stage also was noticeably changed too. Height was more ( I am looking up more than before) depth at the center remained the same as before. What changed the most was the width now it is more balanced out from left to right side. Left side sound is still focus around the speaker but now there is more depth over the far left side (behind the speaker) but only on certain music notes especially pianos. It gained another 0.5ft of width  Smile . Right side speaker previously music was flying everywhere the sound and was less noticeable from the speaker, I would say 80% disappeared but now that has reduced to about only 50%  Sad . I can't get that creeping up feel over the right side of my shoulder. Width reduced by 1ft also less of that sound flanking me from the right side.

The other thing I noticed was when I look straight up center of my speaker plane the vocals have shifted by 3 inches to the left of my sitting position (playing mono brought it more center slightly but still it was towards the left), previously it was centered most of the time. The vocals now are not projected out as previously giving a sense of a banana stage Crying or Very sad. Focus on the instruments also suffered as now I am aware from which part of the stage is it coming from but I can't see it clearly as before, making it hard to visualise the stage well (previously it was not pin point but much better than now).

So this is my findings after debulking my living room, there are some good improvements but also some loss on the overall sounding of my system and it's interaction with my living space. Trying to think like Michael here Wink  but need Michaels input regarding my current overall settings and presentation.
Pics coming soon...

Regards

TJ
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:04 pm

Wow

! ) Mike Griffin & The Unknown Blues Band - Back On The Streets Again ( I'd Rather Go Blind )
2 ) Chris Bell & 100 Blues (Elevator To Heaven )
3 ) Chris Beard (All Night Long)
4 ) Wolf Mail (Rainbow Bird Blues)
5 ) Wolf Mail ( Hello )
6 ) Chris Bell & 100 Blues (Cold Hearted Woman)
7 ) Pete Alderton (Running For Cover)
8 ) SRV (Tin Pan Alley)
9 ) Dion - Tank Full Of Blues
10) Jody Williams - You Left Me in The Dark
11) Ndidi Onukwulu - No, I Never
12) Magic Slim & The Teardrops (So easy to love you)

what a list Cool

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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:13 pm

Want to bring this over to this page so bear with us folks.



"I have been busy for the past 1 week didn't had the time to task out Michael's orders. Finally I musted up some time and energy to move out some of my furnitures and also repositioned my cdp forward to balance out from the back right and left end of the walls behind my speakers.

Lifting all those sofas and my coffee table was a back breaking job of two (me and a friend) but unfortunately I couldn't keep out both of my sofas (replace it with a simple chair) as there was no place to store it temporarily so I moved out one of it (the one that was flanking over the right side of my speaker) and kept the other at my listening position. Still keeping it as equal as I could from right to left. And my last move was to roll up my rug to keep my tiled floor bare.

VOICE TEST
On my initial evaluation without any music being played and just by my voice the "Boo test" was performed   . Before removing the sofa it was more of Boo! slightly damped (darker tone) no extensions, however it sounded fuller with a good body from my voice tone. After moving out the sofas, carpet and coffee table now it is more open up and it sounds more like Booo (lighter tone with more air) the extensions at the end of "Boo" was more pronounced. My voice tone lifted up by a notch making it sound less fuller than before but still acceptable as the Boo's had lows,mids and highs more balanced than before. All this was performed me sitting at my listening position.

Next was to stand up and walk towards the center between speakers till I was standing behind the speakers. Results showed Boo's sounded slightly lighter as I stood up but after that it remained the same as I proceeded to walk towards the center of the speakers. Once behind the speakers the Boo's sounded even lighter in tone there was no lows or body ( didn't sound nice ) not focus to the center of my physical body, something like when listening to a tone that is out of phase   .

I walked towards the left side of the speaker the Boo's tone was now getting slightly heavier and focus, back to how it was when I was sitting down at my listening position. Towards the right side the tone got heavier than the left but not much maybe a tad more (the lows was same as mids but the highs was slightly lesser than the left side). Walking back from my listening position towards the back wall was all light in tone with echoes with slight ringing.

All this got me going for a second round with just my voice and Boo Test, results was the same on all accounts. Now after resting for a while I popped in a CD and began my listening with the audio rig.

AUDIO RIG TEST

First thing I noticed music was more lively than before. It took a totally different path of music where it sounded lighter on all accounts. Vocals is clearer but slightly grainy at the edges and at times it felt slightly tense especially around the 2kHz-5kHz as if the volume was increased at that particular frequencies . Bass was much much lighter didn't sound right it was missing lots of info from 100hz and below. Before this drums or bass guitars playing i could hear and sense that palpable bass but now it is not there .

The highs was more pronounced but not ringy or piercing this was really nice I could hear more details than before. Combining all three gave a more lively sound but it just didn't sound right. Mike Griffin's voice was too bright and edgy, so here is where i decided to bring back the rug in and that edginess disappeared made it sound less lively but better than before hence more balance.

Sound stage also was noticeably changed too. Height was more ( I am looking up more than before) depth at the center remained the same as before. What changed the most was the width now it is more balanced out from left to right side. Left side sound is still focus around the speaker but now there is more depth over the far left side (behind the speaker) but only on certain music notes especially pianos. It gained another 0.5ft of width   . Right side speaker previously music was flying everywhere the sound and was less noticeable from the speaker, I would say 80% disappeared but now that has reduced to about only 50%   . I can't get that creeping up feel over the right side of my shoulder. Width reduced by 1ft also less of that sound flanking me from the right side.

The other thing I noticed was when I look straight up center of my speaker plane the vocals have shifted by 3 inches to the left of my sitting position (playing mono brought it more center slightly but still it was towards the left), previously it was centered most of the time. The vocals now are not projected out as previously giving a sense of a banana stage . Focus on the instruments also suffered as now I am aware from which part of the stage is it coming from but I can't see it clearly as before, making it hard to visualise the stage well (previously it was not pin point but much better than now).

So this is my findings after debulking my living room, there are some good improvements but also some loss on the overall sounding of my system and it's interaction with my living space. Trying to think like Michael here  but need Michaels input regarding my current overall settings and presentation.
Pics coming soon..."

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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:32 pm

This gives me a whole bunch to work with, thanks!

The most important part to take away from this is that "the room is the system". The equipment may be sitting in the room and getting the room started but once that energy is in the air it's all sound and the things in the room adding to and taking away from the audio signal.

Here's what I would like when you can. Make a list of the very best of the room the way it was and the room the way it is and add them together, giving all the good.

When the tuning toys get there we will start adding them to the list as well, trying to come up with the very best of all three in action.

I also would like you to do something else for me. Pull the speakers up to where your head is 36" from the center plane and the speakers as far apart as you can get them. Then, I want you to put the speakers almost up against the front wall. First fairly close together, then again far apart.

I want to be able to hear the room better. Please do these with drapes open and closed and with blinds shut and opened.

Next if you have something to sit right behind your listening position like a cardboard box or a couple stacked, I would like to hear that.

Sorry for all the work, but also get out some boxes (empty at first) and set them around the room and play with their placements and report on the sound. Especially boxes at the top of the stairs, the entrance, by the window, behind you and in the front center part of the room. Stacking them up to 4' high is fine.

that's a lot to report on I know but this will show me a lot

Oh, and last last promise Smile put a big box right in front of you, then right in the center of the room, then infront and behind each speaker with the speakers half way in the room.

study

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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:02 am

Hi Michael,

Will move around the speakers and apply the boxes as Michael mentioned by hopefully over the weekend  Smile.

As of now the best part of the sound I got before this current set up (setup shown at page 3 dated 28/2/15) was :

1) Vocals sounded fuller focussed highs extension was less but overall sounded nice to my likings (sweet  
   sounding with a grunt  Wink ). Also it was stable at the center of my speaker plane and define.
2) Midrange clarity was not overly emphasise no ringing and no glare.
3) Bass sounded better tuneful has a texture that gave a sense of it's presence and energy (bass is still lacking  
   but I am showing here a comparison between these 2 setups).
4) Soundstage had a slight projectile (3D'ish) and a slight sense of space between the instruments. Could  
   define the placements of instruments better. Right side speaker music extensions was very nice giving me a
   good width (2 feet past speaker boundary). Speaker presence was very minimal. Left side was not so great
   though approx 0.5 feet past speaker boundary and it's presence was always known Crying or Very sad .
5) Instruments attack and strike was felt with impact and the intensity of guitar plucking could be heard.

After debulking my living room as shown at page 6 (9/4/15) best findings was :

1) Highs became more pronounced more air but not ringing or annoying, midrange was a pitch higher giving it
   more livelier sounding music but it was pitchy slight honky. Less darker sounding
2) Vocals sounded correct (balanced) less flavor from the lows
3) Stage wise from left to right width extensions was balanced out better than before. Sound over the left side
   of stage had some filling as compared to previous setup. Height gained more giving it a picture from top to
   bottom ( like watching a movie from 42" to 55" ). However now it gives a banana soundstage.
4) Bass suffered the most and there or no improvements in comparison to previous setup.

Will report in for the rest hopefully during this weekend  Very Happy .

Regards

TJ
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:23 am

Hi tjbhuler

A suggestion: for testing what sort of surface should be behind your listening chair, try the boxes as Michael suggested but also one of those foldable mahjong tables common in our two countries. Fold it so the wood table top becomes something like a SAM baffle from RoomTunes and sit 12 to 18 inches in front of it and see what happens.

I did this and it helped me reach the kind of listening spot and rear wave shaping that Sonic has in my room now.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:50 pm

DrapesHi Michael and fellow tuners,

It has been a busy week for me yesterday got back home late thinking could get going with Micahels next step to tune my living space but was supet late and buffed out Embarassed .  I left my system up and running the whole day for about 12 hrs and decide to listen up to some cool deep relaxing music of "Buddha Bar".

My early impression that I noted down on the 9/4 still stays the same noting much had change,  however after a while eventhough was tired I had to at fiddle around at least with the drapes. Findings came out surprisingly significant that couldn't be left alone Shocked

Drapes partially closed near at my listening position |         ||||||

My initial description of sound (before debulking) came back vocals sounded centered focussed (no more 3" to the left), better tonality (weight on vocal, instruments and bass). I  immediately change cd to my trusted cd's and yes confirmed my music and stage is back Laughing . The stage still remained the same more or less balanced left to right but this time the right side it's speaker boundry has increased slightly in width (0.5 ft). Height was also same as after debulking the living space(good spread on height wise). There was a slight sense of space between each instruments giving u a slight feel of 3D'ish. On the downsides the highs suffered slightly not much of extensions with that airy feel and the bass was still lacking. Overall slghly lesst lively in comparison to totally opened drapes but retained some of y he good points I had before debulking my space.

Drapes partially closed near from the front wall  ||||||          |

Now this brought back to how it was after I debulked my living space. It was more open up better highs. Focus was lesser and ill defined. Vocals was smeared around the center stage but still centered. Bass suffered lack of energy but was better in comparison when drapes was totally open. No space between instruments now its back to 2D with a banana stage  Sad . However the stage width didn't change the height was retained also (good spread on height). Overall this was not good as previous setup and gave a bad description in sounstage wise.

Drapes fully closed ||||||||||||||||

Vocals centered with defined border however it was not projecting out but there was a nice texture to it. Stage wise I felt that it closed in somehow like it was compressed slightly yhan before. Width over the right side did suffer but it was not much.  Height reduced now it was like how it was before I debulked my living space (from between midbass and tweeter level of the speaker to the level of where soffits are). The overall presentation was darker sounding and not lively. Bass was slightly more but not clean sounding more muddy. Highs suffered min extensions no airy feel. However there was no banana stage it was more or less flat very 2D'ish.

Now while this got me thinking quite a lot on the PZ's, I was wondering eventhough all this was occuring at the right side of my living space shouldn't it affect the left side too why I am saying this is because I didn't hear any changes or influence over the left side at all scratch .
Hope Michael could chime in on this and shed some light regarding it.



Sonic said

A suggestion: for testing what sort of surface should be behind your listening chair, try the boxes as Michael suggested but also one of those foldable mahjong tables common in our two countries. Fold it so the wood table top becomes something like a SAM baffle from RoomTunes and sit 12 to 18 inches in front of it and see what happens.

I did this and it helped me reach the kind of listening spot and rear wave shaping that Sonic has in my room now.

Thanks for your suggestion Sonic I will definitely look into it. It is good Sonic gave a lead for the distance to place majhong board 12-18 inches as I was also thinking how far behind should I place the board thanks for that Sonic Very Happy.

Will proceed to go nearfield for my speakers as Michael said 36" but I have a question for Michael do you want me to move my sitting position to the speakers too or only the speakers towards my sitting position?

Regards

Tj
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:39 am

Greetings tjbhuler

The idea of that distance is to build a pressure zone round your listening position. Michael is a great advocate of this and he is right. If you have got used to listening with a surface behind you, a free space listening position sounds insubstantial.

As you start dealing with the acoustics of your room and fighting BOO!, Sonic has learned that while acoustics is part of the problem, attention needs to be paid to materials in the room. These can shape the spectral part of the Boo! and change it from an unacceptable BOOiing! into a deep and musical resonance.

Given my room with its hard surfaces (yours too given the way building is done in M'sia and S'pore), Sonic had to kill the BOO! off with foam in the right places -- in your case you got drapes -- and in the amounts to do the job and no more.

But now with Brazilian Pine, MW, Low Tone Redwood and poplar from Michael, the sound of the room and how it behaves with a BOO! has changed. With the right materials you can affect the spectral spread of your room BOO! so it sounds right and you do not need to damp it way down and cause other problems.

Looks like you prefer the sound of drapes closed near the listening position -- so more live to the forward part of your room?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:39 am

Hi TJ

"Will proceed to go nearfield for my speakers as Michael said 36" but I have a question for Michael do you want me to move my sitting position to the speakers too or only the speakers towards my sitting position?"

mg

Bring the speakers to you, but you might go ahead and try it the other way too because we have those soffits to deal with. It's not surprising that a lot of folks with hard walls use SAM's instead of the rear wall to develope balanced timbre.

Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:51 pm

Hi Michael and fellow tuners

Finally got myself to start on the nearfield tuning, what an experience  Very Happy

Nearfield

So I followed as what Michael asked me to do and that is to move my speakers to 36" from the speaker plane to my sitting position. I managed to get it somewhat to around 4 feet but the cables was short I then proceeded to move the sofa to make it at 36".

Speakers was around 7 feet away from the front wall and sofa was 3.5 feet away from it's previous position. The speaker distance was 12 feet apart measured from center of the midbass.

As i sat down the first thing I noticed was speakers are super near to me and was wondering can this give me any sort of stage at all and my answer is fairly yes Laughing .
The first thing I noticed was the stage, it was elevated high up to the ceiling but as I let the songs run in and let my ears set in for awhile the picture was clearer height was definitely raised by about 4 feet higher than previously. Vocals was at the level of my soffits and not well defined somewhat hollow sounding. Instruments was clustered around the speakers with certain notes making up to the soffits.  There was no space between instruments but I could get some piano notes flanking me from the sides (Haas Effect Wink ).
The highs was present but it felt not in continuity with the notes somewhat awkward sounding. Midrange sounded recessed like it was out of phase. Bass was all around and I could sense its presence around me, on the other hand it gave me sense that the bass was out of phase too.
Overall picture of the stage was like rainbow meets banana with an out of phase tune.

SAM

Now proceeded to apply a pseudo SAM at the back of my head the material I used was the wooden cover from my SF speaker 2.2 ft x 2.2ft x 1".



I initially started off as what Sonic suggested 18". As I listened carefully and slowly decrease the distance I finally reached at 12" this was the magic distance. First thing vocals sounded much better, it had body and focused no more hollow sounding. The tonality was much better slightly darker sounding but yet sweet yes this sounded better. Next thing was the vocals projected out more now it is not confined at the corner of the soffits but it was brought slightly forward around 10" away from the corner of the soffits. Height remained the same as before. Instruments are still clustered around the speakers but now it sounded fuller matching well with the highs. I could sense a pressure like feel over both of my ears with the pseudo SAM something like a filling around me  Shocked .

Drapes and Blinds

Keeping everything as it is I moved on to towards the drapes. My listening impressions above was all with the drapes opened fully but blinds shut. I opened up the blinds there was a very minimal change of sound that I could only appreciate at the midrange region. It made the midrange sounded very slightly less darker but I found it negligible because if it was done without my knowledge I might not have noticed it.
However keeping the blinds open I continued to close the drapes partially from the rear wall area ( |       |||||| ).
Now the vocals sounded tighter and had some texture to it. Felt there was a slight projection of the vocals towards me. Again the stage height was the same. Right side of the speaker sounded less clustered. Instruments was beginning to float around but at the level of the speaker height not same height as the vocals  . The presence of speaker was heard ( still giving the rainbow impression). Overall bass gained a slight bump. Especially at 125hz-200hz (more of a midbass region where I could hear more from the lower tone of guitar notes and piano notes).
Next was to open up the rear drapes and close the front drape ( ||||||       | ), this made all the change in tone and focus i had before a tad lesser. Everything sounded a tad lighter which is actually not a bad thing because now the details of highs from instruments and vocals could be appreciated more. However bass suffered making it sounding flat and lighter.
Closing fully the drapes made it sound slightly muddy due to increase of bass but still better than the post I made earlier ( maybe because of the nearfield position effect), but the details was lesser (less livelier too). However I still feel the vocals and instruments sounded better in this setting in comparison to all the settings I did for the drapes (more balance).
One thing that significantly changed was the flanking effect I had before over the right side speaker. This time I could appreciate it more and it was not only there on certain notes but more on every instruments that was playing over the right side.

So this got me thinking how about I close in the drapes on both sides but halfway keeping the center opened something like this |||||     ||||| Question

Yes, that will be the next step for me and then placing the 4 feet boxes around speakers, sitting position and stairs. For now all this heavy lifting has gotten me pretty exhausted. Will update my findings once I have done this hopefully by tomorrow Wink .

Regards

TJ
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from malaysia   Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:44 am

Here are the box placements, along with the drapes so you can get a picture in your minds of TJ's tweaking.














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