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robert293



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PostSubject: tuning-chameleon   Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:46 pm

i am a chameleon owner from sweden.
this is a great speaker compared to my old b&w nautilus....

the only thing is that the low bass is to strong in my room... i could wish some more mid-bas and iam not familier to the tuning consept....

how do i begin to tune the speaker so the mid-bas comes forward and lower the deepbas?
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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:53 am

Hi Robert,

Welcome to the techno-zone!



The Chameleon was the first class A rated speaker that I designed. This pair was 1 of 50 that were built to go on tour with me to trade shows around the world in the early "90's". It was probably owned by a reviewer, distributer, producer, or one of the guys standing in line at the end of a show. Those were fun times!

The speaker was able to go much lower than a typical 8" driven loud speaker. In the back you will find a loading chamber, tuning bar and 2 tuning bolts (you can feel them by putting your hand up inside the chamber and touch the top wall) that control the bottom of the upper speaker box.



Start by tightening up the 2 bolts inside of the cabinet and the 2 bolts on either side of the chamber itself. This will raise the pitch into the mids. It would be surprising if you needed to raise the pitch more but you can by lead filling the chamber.

You also might have corners that are loading your room.

have fun playing and let us know how things go with the tuning

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robert293



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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:09 am

ok i,l try that....lead fill....

the rest of the nuts how should they be....in-out or middle? for best performens...

ok so its a rare speaker thene Smile

i really like the sound its BIG in both depth and wide with much warmt and clean sound. the trebble is amazing....
garanteed one of the best speaker i,ve heard so far.....

my amplifier is a marantz sr-18 movie reciver witch delivers 200w 8ohm-375w 4ohm.....whould that do or should i get some more "hifi"
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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:19 pm

Hi Robert

A Chameleon is a powerful speaker. I wish I had one.

When you tighten the nuts, do it gently. Turn the nuts or bolts by hand till they just seat them maybe 1/16 of a turn more. Don't go more than this. Don't use spanners.

Listen to music and speech. If the mids are about OK, let it settle down/don't adjust it for about 6 to 12 hours of music listening time and see if the sound is good.

If the midrange is too much, loosen a bit, if you want more midrange, make it another 1/32 to 1/16 of a turn tighter.

Turning nuts and screws too tight on Michael's loudspeakers, equipment racks and tuning devices will kill the sound. I remember a friend bought a Clamprack from Michael. He did not know what to do and he tightened the nuts with a spanner. The sound was terrible. For Sonic, the nuts on my tuning rack are so loose that a touch of a finger can cause the nut to loosen.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:18 pm

Hi Robert,

I think you'll have fun with the tuning once you start catching on to how it works. Send me pictures of the rest of your system so we can get to know what it is doing or not.

Sonic and the rest of the Tunees will help you get to the place where the music will come to life. Tuning is a very exciting journey to take and we are here to help you get the most out of your system.

have fun

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robert293



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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:17 am

ok... yes i did tighten the nuts under and on top and then losen the nuts on the top side(midrange)....bas was mutch more tighter and faster after that....big differens.
that i recall was also that the midrange hade a little bit more space in it....ok i take some more pics and i,l be back.... Smile

what about rubber feets or spikes under the speaker?

i have a thin wood panel floor and concrete under that.....i did sence a big diffrens with my old b&w nautilus with soundcare super spikes under....same thing with canton karat....

tomorrow i,l borrow home a amplifier and a cd player from bow Technologies Wazoo and the belonging player....see if things happens...

excuse my for my english....not my strongest side Smile
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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:30 am

Hi Robert,

Rubber feet are not the way to go. Try spikes or cones. If you would like to try my newer feet for wood floors let me know.

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robert293



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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:52 am

well i think your own design is the way to go.... well how do the look and what price? is it problems to send them to sweden?

iam going to build my own center to match them becouse i have a pair of ss 8554-00 drivers in my closet Smile buy a scanspeak 2905-9300 in a 40-60 litre box? and i proberbly have the biggest center speaker in sweden Smile i have a b&w nautilus htm2 now and the trebble is horrible compered to the chameleon in high volymes ok the b&w is a good one but its to small and have alulinium trebble that is sharp and to mutch forward in soundstage....the scanspeak is even more detaild but lovely smooth and soft....

next step in the future is the acoustick inverement in my room...you said something about the corners?
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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:24 am

Hi Robert,

Yes, I'll help you with the different parts of your system. Email me the pictures of your system and room and when I get to Las Vegas at the end of next week I'll help you make choices.

Sonic and some of the other guys will help you get up to date on tuning while I'm traveling.

There's a product section on this site to take a look at and you can look at some of the systems on here and on www.tuneland.info to get some ideas.

You will probably want to start off with some of the basics.

RoomTune Squares (8-16 pieces)
MGA Magic Feet (4 for each speaker and 3 per component)
MGA Magic Wood Cable Grounds (8-10 grounds)
MGA Type2 speaker wire (get enough to re-wire the speakers)
Assorted wood

This will be enough to start playing with.

The more you describe your system to the "tunees" (we call ourselves) the more we will know how to get you set up right.

The main thing is to have fun tuning and listening to the music.

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robert293



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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:31 pm

hi there....i,m back Smile

well now i had some time to adjust and upgrade my electronics...

the sound is now AMAZING!....i cant belive how one 8" can produse that kind of depth and wide in the music....
sometimes i can hear things 3-5 meter(european) behind the speakers....refrens class my freinds says...

well i,m amazed in your designs and i cant help wounder why your design isent more famous in europe...
many of my audiofil freinds are also amazed....

well...i began to replaced the driver to a ss 8554-00(newer) and tuned in the boxes...then i replaced my amp to a marantz sr-12s1-
and the speaker wires to qed xt-400.
the dvd is now a marantz dv6500 as transport but soon replaced with bd7004.

i have tried a stereo combo from audio research and kind of funny...i prefered the marantz...more deitaild and more punch to it.
here some pics:

http://www.minhembio.com/robert293
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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:33 pm

Hi Robert,

Thanks for the comments. The high end audio industry is moving toward variable tuning very slowly but will eventually get there. It all comes down to promotions. People are able to identify with a name much easier than a sound or concept. When we introduced tuning into the audiophile world back in the 80's some of the magazines didn't know how to approach a review based on variables. This seemed weird for me coming from a musical background, but the more I learned about high end the more I saw that the audiophile world was more of a sub-culture and not necessarily a direct link to the musical instrument. For me it just makes sense to make a system more like a musical instrument that is able to reproduce other musical instruments.

Bottom line is there are just some things about high end that don't make sense, at the same time I guess I have to give high end a break (it's still a baby industry). Most baby industries try to flex their muscles long before they know what muscles are. The nice thing is the industry will get there in time. For me it's just fun watching the tides.

enjoy the sound!!

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robert293



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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:10 am

i think so to Smile

today its all about thick-rounded boxes and design for just the eyes...some of the real expensive speakers dont imprese me at all...but some cheap do....for ex cheaper b&w-and danish/swedish brands like tnt (total naked truth) respons loudspeakers....they all use scanspeak drivers...

i have to say that i was kind of skeptical about your design at first...then i listnen....then a wouldent trade my chameleon for nothing.
the seller of this chameleon trade them for pioneer s1ex and he called me after a while and was a little sad...he misses the chameleon.....

have you heard about a swedish brand name: ino audio by ingvar öhman?
he is a akuskticer and is a professor in fysic and akustic... he does really fine spéakers for not to much money.
many people in sweden sell their 10.000-20.000 euros speakes för his pi60s model that retail: 5000 euros.
he build his own drivers and have a thing for lowest possible thd% ....flat response...and full trottle 20hz-20khz....

how did you end up with just scanspeak as drivers? u guys in the states just have to have about 100 different brands?
do u use scanspeak in your other modells to?

by the way: should i damp behind the speakers?
and you sad some thing about the corners?
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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:44 pm

Hi Robert,

You have my email address right? Send me an email with info on the inexpensive speakers you were talking about if you would. As my product is heading back into circulation I'm looking for a cheap brand of speakers to distribute. Your so right!! Audiophiles over spend for the wrong stuff. Simple has always been better.

One of the speakers that got me hooked on high end was a simple speaker built in Ohio named spectrum. It had a low mass box with low mass woofer and paper tweeter. These speakers did not do everything right, what they did do was play music (something that is missing in many speakers). Basically the company had 2 models and tons of fans as the industry was shocked at the sound for the money. I will be making speakers very similar this year since it is hard to find a company to do what I want.

The ScanSpeak/ Vifa family of drivers is one that has a long successful reputation. I wish they would have stuck with their old stamp design which was the best of their sound, but they had little demand when the industry went composite. What I hunt for in a woofer and tweeter is balance. Hi Fi speakers some times get this combo more correct than high end speakers. High end speakers most of the time are over built which causes restrictions on the movement of the elements that supply the push pull. As a result the crossovers get over built and the end has to play catch up with the means. This problem is easy to hear once a person gets use to listening to it. The other problem that the industry battles with unfortunately is the making of cabinets that flight the speakers instead of cabinets that work with the speakers. You mentioned some of these in your post " thick-rounded boxes and design for just the eyes". When I use to tour and do studio work John Bower of B&W was one of the designs I liked to use for mixing. The new B&W just do nothing for me at all. Like wise the early Dali speakers had much promise but then took a wrong turn. If these companies would put more thought into using their cabinets for sound they would create speakers that would sound great, but engineers have issues.

As for me I have found woofers and tweeters that suit my taste and am building a few models that are tons of fun including a new "Chameleon".

Yep, your Chameleons will beat up on about any speaker in their path.

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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:49 pm

To answer your other question.

Yes, we should treat your room and start applying more of the tune to your system as you wish to move forward.

I would like to take a look at your room again without some of the stuff in it that might be taking away from the sound. Is your room more minimalistic than it was?

looking forward to your future

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robert293



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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:59 am

hello.

what do you think of this:

a big mdf or stone plate under the chameleon and spikes between them?

google respons loudspeakers for info to the cheaper speakers that i love...especily the artist 2 modell.

below: this is a forum topic about the ingvar öhmans: ino speakers...they are cheap and plays fantastic.

http://www.minhembio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=108493

they all are made and design in sweden.
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robert293



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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:01 am

i,l take some pictures of all my room and email you....
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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:05 pm

Thanks Robert,

We'll take a look and see what's going on.

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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:29 am

hi michael...a question? what did mu mk1 chameleon retail? price whene new?

i was thinking about upgrades? do you have any to this modell?
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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:18 am

Hi Robert

You know I honestly don't remember what the retail was on the early Chameleons cause I was so busy touring. I would guess it to be somewhere around $6500 US.

The out board crossovers and tuning boards made a big difference in the performance of the Chameleon.

glad your having fun

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robert293



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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:20 am

Michael Green wrote:
Hi Robert

You know I honestly don't remember what the retail was on the early Chameleons cause I was so busy touring. I would guess it to be somewhere around $6500 US.

The out board crossovers and tuning boards made a big difference in the performance of the Chameleon.

glad your having fun

ok back at that time it was a lot of money....ok.

so the crossover fit my boxes? thinkin box volyme-load chamber etc...is the crossover and tuning board expensive to be bout and chiped to sweden?

what about the treble....is it 2905/9000 in your newer chameleon? or a better one?
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robert293



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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:54 am

michael: do you have pictures of your newer chameleon?

my e-mail:

robertjohansson293@hotmail.com
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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:32 am

Hi Robert

Here's a picture of the current Chameleon



I am making changes to the model this year which will change the drivers, cabinets, and crossover. This is not a change that can be forwarded to the current or older models however. For those who own the chameleons of the past if I ever to decide to retro them I'll make it known but I'm more inclined to move to the new design and offer trade ins.

In some ways the audiophile world has moved further from the purity of driver designs which makes it interesting for the tune. In other ways driver choices are very good for newer models and types of speakers. For example. those who are horn fans are going to have a chance to buy tunable horn designs that are out of this world. Also for paper tweeter fans the paper woofer/tweeter combos are very sweet and will make a lot of listeners happy.

For your speakers it has been over 5 years since anyone has asked for a crossover update so naturally I have not pursued this. My thoughts have been on a Chameleon that is almost crossover free. I'm convinced that crossovers can be a thing of the past if we can make speakers so that they can roll off into the resonance of the cabinet. This means that the cabinet must be highly sensitive to harmonics and of course tunable.

Yes, this means that the next Chameleon will have an efficiency of 94db 1w 1m or above so that the speaker will be driven by low watt amps. If you study my free resonance designs you will notice that I give all drivers a 3db + head start. This is the same 3db + 3 more db that others kill off when designing. I get my designing from the building of musical instruments. Musical instruments always work from the plus side of efficiency and build on that plus side, as should speakers. Here's an example: the average acoustical guitar (a medium size instrument) amplifies the signal 1200 percent at 1 meter. This is a ton of musical information. Speakers should do the same thing before a watt ever hits the mag. Our job as speaker designers should be to control and use the cabinet instead of over dampening and choking the drivers. This is why audiophile speakers sound like they do. They sound choked out because they are, and your not going to see them make the necessary changes any time soon.

If you can take a picture of your crossovers and get them to me I can see what tricks you can do to gain a few db.

you have a great speaker enjoy

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Chipdivot



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PostSubject: Chameleons   Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:00 pm

Michael,

What is under the Chameleons...just wood or MTDs and wood? They look as good today as they did then!

The Marantz AV600 left channel went out almost completely the other night Crying or Very sad Do you remember who said they had one they were willing to sell?

Thanks,


Last edited by Chipdivot on Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : corrected spelling)
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PostSubject: Re: tuning-chameleon   Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:27 pm

Hi Chip

The Chameleons had MTDs and wood at that point in the picture. I'm wondering if maybe it was Tom Davis that had the extra 600. I owe him a call so I will ask.

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PostSubject: AV600   Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:33 pm

Thanks Michael!
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