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 Stereophile, the other side of the hobby

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tmsorosk



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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:26 pm

hi fi rider wrote:
Michael Green the Michael Green? Good to see you alive and well! I own a pair of 60's. By far the best audio investment I ever made.

Welcome "hi-fi rider"

The question is, how hi do you fi ?

I hope I'm not over stepping my authority ( zero ), but we've been asking Michael to set-up a gallery section and I'm hoping you'll join us in photoing and entering your equipment. Big or small, cheap or pricy all is welcome. I'm sure you have special pieces you'd like to share. Hoping Michael will include some of his new designs for us to peruse before they go public too.

Regards
Tim Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:18 pm

A warm welcome to all the new members. Hope you enjoy TuneLand Exclamation

BTW, Tim the Gallery is up. I put it in the listeners forum http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/f14-system-gallery

I'm looking forward to you guys and other fellow audiophiles to start their own gallery. I see Drewster already put up some pics.

study

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:14 pm

First post.

Michael Green. I believe you should continue your posting on Stereophile. Your fresh, informative and clearly a great listener.

thank you
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tmsorosk



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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:22 pm

jarret jonson wrote:
First post.

Michael Green. I believe you should continue your posting on Stereophile. Your fresh, informative and clearly a great listener.

thank you

Welcome jarret, I look forward to reading your posts.

I hope I don't sound like a thread crapper, and I must agree that Michael's posts are always honest and well thought out, but,
the site you mentioned is not for folks of his refined manner. I was joyfully posting there since the beginning and was a paper subscriber since January 1993. Still would be if it weren't for a hostile and narrow minded editor, quite the opposite of the way he portrays himself in the paper magazine.
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:48 pm

Thank you for the welcome Tim Exclamation Never enough time in a day but I'm reading tuneland on my off time as much as I can. Was looking at setups earlier. Hiend001 has a system I would like to hear. Looks like he has been using the tuneland techniques for a while. Very impressive:!:

Your not being a thread crapper at all Tim(sorry for butting in jarret). You are stating the truth:!: Stereophile could learn much from Mr. Green. The entire audio industry could. They play ego games while Michael is a breed above.

regards

Mike
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rega rite



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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:27 am

Started reading tuneland today thanks to a posting roomtunes MG began on phile. Nice to find real talk after decades of disappointing reviews. Years of listening teaches us the seasoned audiophile knows more than the audio reviewer who changes his system out every several months. Last 30 years reading the press has become nothing more than the same review repeated. Roomtunes showing their "methods of listening" is right on the money.

GREAT TO SEE YOU MICHAEL
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tmsorosk



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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:23 am

rega rite wrote:
Started reading tuneland today thanks to a posting roomtunes MG began on phile. Nice to find real talk after decades of disappointing reviews. Years of listening teaches us the seasoned audiophile knows more than the audio reviewer who changes his system out every several months. Last 30 years reading the press has become nothing more than the same review repeated. Roomtunes showing their "methods of listening" is right on the money.

GREAT TO SEE YOU MICHAEL  
Welcome aboard.
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:53 am


Hello rega rite

Welcome and good observation! The magazine reviews are indeed just based on a couple of templates and after a while boringly similar. The Tune is about something else entirely.

You won't be into analog vinyl played back on Rega turntables (like Sonic)?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Sat Apr 02, 2016 6:29 pm

A post I put up today on the Stereophile forum

http://www.stereophile.com/content/digital-vs-analog#comment-557698

"This is good, I like this, I like this a lot! Bravo to bierfeldt and commsysman! We might have just found a way to get past the Stereophile internet trolling. I'm sure other forums will continue to talk about the Stereophile forum slipping from the ranks mainly do to the goeffs of the hobby. BTW didn't know but thank you ChrisS for holding both Geoff and Stereophile to the flame.

Here's my take on want I am reading above. You have both bierfeldt and commsysman speaking from their practical applications and experience, it's clear to see both of these listeners comments especially when including the systems being used. I can see where an experienced or even newbie listener can gain from the journeys of both. This doesn't mean the path of the reader will go the same direction in their findings but it shows that there at least is a path based on doing.

This is and has been my particular point on these threads. The riches found in others doing vs the trolling from others not doing is apparent and should be front and center to the point that the non-doers learn to stick to topics they actually have experience with.

Now JA or whoever did the editing of this thread should be given a hats off or at least handshake for giving this thread a chance to talk about our hobby at a more dignified level. Maybe something I pressed above angered JA for some reason, but if John takes a hard look at what I am doing here he will see that I am and always have been a promoter of and for the good of this hobby as well as the music industry in general. I'm not in John's head so have no idea what his reasonings or thoughts are, but let me say this. Someone or many need to stand up and hold this hobby accountable. If I am penalized, marginalized or omitted Stereophile looses an opportunity to have these threads intermingled with high end audio designers.

Here's the deal John and listeners. These pages can either be attractive to serious listeners or a turn off. They can either be full of actively doing music lovers sharing their expertise, experiences and wisdom or polluted by internet audio trolls "mocking" or "arguing" with real audio enthusiast. I and many of the members here feel these pages can be far more productive than they are and are willing to be a part of this, but in order for this to be done there needs to be respect for posters such as bierfeldt and commsysman, Ron, ChrisS, Toledo, Costin and many more who view "Stereophile" as something that is above trolling or should be.

As I have said here, I have written to John about this and have been approached by quite a few members and other industry leaders and partakers about what the Stereophile forum stands for. Some being reviewers themselves. It's clear to all of us that these pages could be full of positive gain and a sense of that listening community that Harry and JGH created.

Saying all this, again when I read the posts here from the listeners the comments make sense and we can see where the listeners are and have been. We can also read when someone has not really done and is not doing the hobby but merely here to disrupt and discourage. Obviously if someone is engaging in internet trolling they are not here to talk from an expertise point of view.

I will be interested if this particular post will be deleted as my stand up post was earlier. I will go a step further in my stand and copy this post to the audio industry as a testament to Stereophile's will and intent. I hope my being here and attempt to raise the bar of ethics in this hobby will be rewarded not attacked. We will see. And more importantly the industry will see. If designers like myself come here only to be mistreated the word will spread and could be why no other designers bother and why members here say "why bother". But, if the tide can be about expertise, experience and practical applications by doing (regardless the results) the listeners will come and the evidence of high end audio is alive and well will be see.

BTW, this is the first time any of my posts or comments anywhere in this great hobby and music industry has ever been deleted as if I said something that was against our hobby. Usually if something is deleted on a public forum there is an explanation given so the readers can view.

I will be looking for this to happen here as I was standing up for the hobby and it's ethics."
_______________________________________

This for me and on-lookers is the first public sign that shows something is not all that equal within the high end audio leadership attitudes.

The question I have, is Stereophile's ethics and sense of responsibility as pure as the driven snow, or are there slants and spins more at play than we have seen Question  One would expect if my comments having to do with "expertise, application and experience" is challenging enough for Stereophile to delete, a response would be in-line. Does JA or Stereophile think they have more experience in the tune than I or others who spend our time going the extra mile beyond stock or plug & play?

What exactly was it about my post that angered JA (who says he hasn't the time to mod his forum as he should) enough to hank it Question I have deleted posts on TuneLand in the past and the poster is either given a reason or is welcome to ask.

An interesting day today on stereophile.  study

I would love to be wrong, but sometimes Stereophile does indeed make me question


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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:55 pm

My $00.02 is you hit a nerve by stating the obvious. Here on TuneLand your spending time listening and enjoying reading about others doing the same. Stereophile has a different agenda. A magazines' business is to sell ads. Stereophile may have started off as a hobby but the hobby part of the magazine is mostly gone. Stereophile is about keeping the component sales going that keep the ads coming in. Read an issue of the magazine from 1992 and compare it to a current issue. Good or bad Stereophile is one big component catalog ad today.
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:43 pm

My follow up to Stereophile.

"The talks about digital vs analog has been around the block millions of times, but let me bring up some points that some here might find useful. Notice when the this vs that is the topic very few times do you see one, if not the most important, differences between these sources talked about. Hobbyist and reviewers alike try to spell out the differences as if they should be the same and interchangeable, but they aren't. Earlier on this thread I mentioned expertise which appears got some ruffled. However look at the context and meaning. The experts I know, know that CD's, tape, FM, vinyl and files are all done on different "Equalizing" scales.

Audiophiles for years have been trying to compare apples and oranges as if magically they are apples and apples, their not. let's raise the bar a little here and get real. If you plug & play your system to sound good with vinyl it is not going to reach the same level when playing tape. Same goes for vinyl vs CD, CD vs file and down the list we go. Fact 2, all recordings are not only EQed differently for sources but they are also EQed differently from each other as masters. The whole Pre-amp selector idea was made for convenience sake not quality, and certainly not discrete. Sorry to brake the bubbles but the fact is, there are more variables in this industry and hobby and until we start getting our ears out of the sand (this means all of us) the bar will not be raised. You can get mad at me, delete me or even banned me, but this is a big problem and egos are not going to fix it, only practical application will, and the designs that follow.

High end audio has another chapter but if you never let it happen, it's game over. Maybe not while the marketed are still buying but as soon as people show the others a more realistic path, what do you think is going to happen? How long before the simple designing efforts blow high end audio as we have built it out of the water?

Now, put on your FM hear the difference in Eqing? Do it with your files, tape, vinyl what have you. Tell me guys, are you saying you don't hear the different sources playing differently? Now for those with better systems and better hearing plug in only your CDP. Let it break in a few hours on repeat. Now plug in a component to any other or even all the jacks into your pre, what do you hear? Congestion! My friends if you are playing your high end audio system with several components plugged into your pre section you are not listening "discrete". The whole discrete theory is one big myth. All recordings sound different, all inputs sound different, all sources sound different, and all ears and environments sound different. Now if some audiophiles wish to continue to play the plug & play game that's cool, but lets for the sake of music not say we have reached the all knowing ultimate and attempt to set ourselves above the others who have gone beyond.

My friends lets not be fools and lets not be fooled. This industry has many hobbies within it's umbrella and each can either learn from the next or fold up tent and pretend they are their own island.

Digital vs analog? Well the answer is, they are two different hobbies under the same umbrella. BTW they are both only signal languages but I think the OP was talking of this in the way people are comparing the sound of the two.

You know guys, a lot of these topics are really not all that hard, and getting great sound isn't so hard either. It's a matter of growing and learning or many times being willing to learn. Playback by now 2016 is not as tough as people make it sound. They make it sound tough only because they themselves have not arrived at the basic understandings of all the variables. Then sadly many times when one of us who have been exploring and using these variables comes along pride gets stepped on and the karma of moving forward is lost in ego.

this hobby, the true hobby of listening, is above this"

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:28 am

Good evening MG. I've continued to enjoy the reads on the forum. Tuneland has this feel of music about it that pulls you in the door. I too think it's a good idea you appear on the phile now and then. I'm glad though that you have not posted so much there as in the past. Members there should see enough of you to want to visit tune land but you spending time trying to teach hobbyist who are not very far along and seem to have no desire to get much past first based (including the reviewers) might not be the best use of your time. I say promote there but do your serious work here. Stereophile is the opposite of tuneland. Tuneland gives you breath and Stereophile sucks the good karma air out of the room.

That might sound a harsh but most friends of mine think the same way.
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:38 am


Hello Mostly Classics

Right you are about the difference between this place and the 'phile.

Is that tape machine (your avatar) something you own or an aspiration?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:46 am


Michael says:

"Audiophiles for years have been trying to compare apples and oranges as if magically they are apples and apples, their not. let's raise the bar a little here and get real. If you plug & play your system to sound good with vinyl it is not going to reach the same level when playing tape. Same goes for vinyl vs CD, CD vs file and down the list we go. Fact 2, all recordings are not only EQed differently for sources but they are also EQed differently from each other as masters. The whole Pre-amp selector idea was made for convenience sake not quality, and certainly not discrete. Sorry to brake the bubbles but the fact is, there are more variables in this industry and hobby and until we start getting our ears out of the sand (this means all of us) the bar will not be raised. You can get mad at me, delete me or even banned me, but this is a big problem and egos are not going to fix it, only practical application will, and the designs that follow."

Sonic can attest to the truth of this. Now that I am primarily playing vinyl and have migrated recently from CDs/SACDs to files, I find that optimising for one means slight (in my case) compromises elsewhere. But more telling is how different mixes are, file from file, from one LP to the next. You just cannot play them flat and pretend they are all equally right and good.

For those who eschew tone controls, it the pursuing a trend that started decades ago among some magazines and manufacturers that in the glare of reality today is proving to be muddled/idealistic thinking or deception.

After years pursuing the ideal of "flat only", Sonic's JVC Nivico SEA-10 is quite a treasure Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:35 am

and here's the post I just put up on the Stereophile thread

"Hi David

MoFi now your talking. Shawn is one of my favorite buds in the biz, and can tell you lots about how each recording has it's own life. Some of their recordings are good examples of dynamic range not measuring so well on the data base yet played through a system setup correctly for their particular mastering will blow your mind with all kinds of richness and girth.

here's something that bugs me

Audiophiles so many times as I mentioned earlier don't take the time to understand the uniqueness of each recording as a unit of production. They'll put on one recording after another and judge the recordings based on what the system is doing not looking at if the system is in-tune to that particular recording.

Lets say you setup your system to play ECM Keith Jarret Bye Bye Blackbird. You tune the system to bring out the mid harmonics and nice halos around the cymbals. You get done listening and decide to listen to MoFi's Alice Cooper Welcome to my nightmare. Guess what, after tuning your system to ECM which commonly tilts up slightly putting on the MoFi your going to think it sounds mushy. Fact is the MoFi isn't mushy at all, your system is tuned for a different sound. the opposite will also happen, so which recording is wrong? Neither one.

Same exact thing happens when you go from a CDP vs vinyl. Right now I have 3 systems hooked up. I can take my tape system and make it blow away my vinyl and vice versa. Same with my digital vs the others. Now if I setup my table and CDP through the same pre, more than likely I'm going to favor one over the other. I'll put the same recording on the CDP as the table and I'm going to make judgements based on that particular setup. If that setup is more in-tune with the vinyl source on that recording I'm going to think this format is better than the CD. However if I take the time to tune the CD in, I'm going to choose the CD over the vinyl.

This is the part (next level) of this hobby that many high end hobbyist don't get to. Judgements are made about recordings and recording types without making the necessary adjustments to get the most out of the recordings. This is an area where the old school tape and table guys get because most of these guys use equalizers and know how to make adjustments to their systems. High end audio thinks Equalizers are a no no. This is completely ridiculous. These guys will hook up line conditioners, use complicated crossovers and speakers with over damped cabinets, sitting in a room out of pitch, and blame their bad sound on recordings. This teaching is absolutely backward from how this hobby even works. Hobbyist have these big over built systems with all these pre inputs plugged in and because they don't have tone controls think they are discrete. Now I personally don't use an equalizer, but this is because all my parts and pieces are variably tunable. I also don't use crossovers on my main speakers. I spend time matching my drivers and cabinets so I don't need crossovers. Everything that requires extra parts like crossovers and multiple inputs take us further away from discrete.

Now lets say you haven't gotten into room acoustics yet, or your not so up on how to tune a room for a recording. If you took a good phono stage, an amp, speakers with minimal crossovers or no crossover and added a good EQ to compensate for some of the rooms interactions with your recordings, you will blow away the guy that is using a complicated system. using an EQ in that case is more discrete than the system using all those other parts. This hobby's teachings sometimes is very strange and a whole lot of theory without these guys ever doing. This is why you see a ton of audiophiles now building extremely simple systems. The audiophile hobby is better than it has ever been from the view point of simplicity. Not everyone is into it, but there are more people putting together great sounding simple systems than the big complicated ones now."
_________________________________________

Interesting, John A. has been deleting about half of my posting there now, very telling Exclamation

It appears he has had enough of other's opinions. Oh well it's his forum Smile Doesn't change the facts.

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:46 am

Sonic said

"For those who eschew tone controls, it the pursuing a trend that started decades ago among some magazines and manufacturers that in the glare of reality today is proving to be muddled/idealistic thinking or deception.

After years pursuing the ideal of "flat only", Sonic's JVC Nivico SEA-10 is quite a treasure"

very true words

It shows a side of this hobby that has derailed itself from the real pursuit of audio. The whole myth of discrete has back these egos into their own corner. They would rather only being able to play limited amounts of music than admit they made a misstep. What's shocking is that they fooled an entire branch of the hobby. Think of how many systems and listeners are suffering bad sound when there is no reason for it.

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:45 pm

"Hi David

Another suggestion if I may. Keep in mind that new does not mean best. New obviously gets more marketing but as you dig deeper there are tons of jewels to take advantage of without the big bucks. I put together many less than 1000 buck systems for folks every year that would blow the mind. You know the old drive your new car off the lot rule. Well in this hobby when you know what to look for that rule is ten fold. The mainstream of audiophiles usually over spend at first and in time as they learn their art of the hobby tend to go simple. Many if not most times audiophiles end up going back to systems they are able to fit into their lives. It goes like this. Spend all your money climbing the ladder while learning along the way about what you like as opposed to what others like. Then after a little pride swallowing the real learning kicks in this time with you becoming the master of your own mind and music. You become less dependent on others ears and more on your own. I would say this is probably what 85% of audiophiles end up doing. You don't read them cause their done. These listeners are busy building their recording collections and may still bring in a component from time to time but their main focus is more mature. The more serious you become as a listener the less money you will spend.

example

This last year I probably had 30 or so amps through my revolving door equipment room. Because I live in Vegas the equipment choices both brand new (barely used or demos) and classics are at my request. Do you know how much this years winner cost me? $200.00 . Now I listened to up to $25,000 price tags easily, but the people listening with me were shocked at what happened when we did our comparisons. Even the source we use commonly said to me "don't do these comparisons in house while the spenders are here", no joke that's exactly what he said to us. So obviously we ended up doing the demos at TuneLand so to not put the supplier on the spot.

here's my advice

Pay attention to the guys telling you to explore, like the poster above who said start with dark side of the moon. Just so happens I've been using this very recording downstairs for about 3 weeks voicing things before just 2 days ago moving to Haydn's 3,4,11,12,13,18,19,20 & 40 symphonies. Now you probably won't go this extreme, but experienced listeners will tell you that developing your references and learning to use them as you make adjustments is the key to learning what your system will and will not do. The other thing I recommend is reading those reviewers and posters who engage in making their systems adjustable. Listeners who know how to make system adjustments are the guys you want to eventually get to know. This way you will learn to do things more on the soundstage side of the hobby than the theory side. Theory is cool and we all like to talk about what we think is happening, but this doesn't make your music play. There is a wealth of great listeners out there that you can befriend and listen together with. Referencing music together, even long distance, is a huge benefit. If you do this your going to in short order, you are going to learn one big lesson. All recordings are different, all systems are different, all ears are different. This is a hobby for you, no matter what anyone else says. You and you alone will make your own rules as you go.

I have listened to Dark Side of the Moon (as most have) a trillion (the new million) of times, and the one thing I can promise you as a person who has been in the music business all my life, I have never heard this recording sound the same on any two systems. This hobby needs to accept the facts and then let the levels of listening be what they are."

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:28 pm

Hi Michael

I'm not sure John Atkinson is ever going to catch on to tuning. He has invested so much of his business selling the latest product that he doesn't have the time for something as progressive as the methods of variables. No matter how much you try to teach the readers on his magazine forum it would be hard to sell a concept that he, Mike, Art and the others have never gone deep enough into. Stereophile is only going to go as far as they have experienced. For years the reviewers have painted themselves as the top of the mountain looking down. You are the clouds looking down on their limited views and experience. Unless they changed directions and have a change of pride to go with it they are always going to push the audiophile mythologies they created over the truth of tuning. I'm sure they are all nice people but as I read somewhere they have hit their ceiling.
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:54 pm

hello tuneland forum

I'm a new member coming from the Stereophile forum. I'm happy to have found you after years of being part of a hobby I have almost come to hate. It took me taking the time to try your roomtunes to realize the crap being pushed on Stereophile. I feel cheated and scammed by years of buying components only to find trade offs instead of improvements. Been reading your threads for two weeks and now have hope. Already bigger than life improvements. thanks

Where have I been Laughing , like the emoticons by the way. How can I add an avatar?
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:22 am


Hi roman price

Welcome to Tuneland where things work. Yeah I too was one who waited in line to buy the latest Recommended Components issue. That was a long time ago.

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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:51 am

thank you Sonic for the welcome

It's a nice read here. I enjoy the q & a between you and Michael on your threads. TuneLand is what magazines should be.
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:05 am

Welcome to the new Members Exclamation

enjoy yourselves
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PostSubject: Re: Stereophile, the other side of the hobby   Mon May 02, 2016 2:05 pm

Well, I tried to give Stereophile and Stereophile's editor some friendly advice as someone who has all the intention in the world to promote this great hobby. The truth though is, if you let internet trolls in you can bank that it's a matter of time before listeners move on.

now another thread starts

http://www.stereophile.com/content/dead

No one is ever going to take Stereophile serious if John allows a confessed internet troll be the main poster and other folks who spin the negatives instead of the positives. All things negative get old and the high end audio hobby has had enough. Trust use to be able to be sold among the magazines, but when you on one hand are selling products and on the other hand allowing trolls, your pretty much putting your trust-a-bility on the line.

When the Stereophile forum looks so dramatically different from the magazine it makes the listener wonder if the words being shared on the magazine are just nicely edited sentences. A forum is the product (the birth right) of the OP, the OP in this case being John A and any of the guys who started and maintain their forum. If you allow mold it's only going to encourage that mold to spread. In the hobby of listening to music, how hard is it to be listening one, and two excited about the listening Wink . It's shocking to see Stereophile make such a huge mistake, but let me say this as well "it will turn". There's no way this hobby will tolerate guilt buying, unqualified representatives, poor internet ethics and any other evil that pollutes this hobby. The music and search for the very best will always trump.

My advice from the very beginning has been "you may build a hobby separate from the listening to music, inside the hobby of listening to music, but you will never replace music itself".

It's my hope Stereophile has the ability to adapt, but right now the thread "dead" is perhaps yet another sign of the times.

As for TuneLand, we're going to keep that music spinning. Very Happy

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