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 Old Tunee - Newer System

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Bill333

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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:40 pm

Hi Michael and Garp,

Regarding AudioCircle, I read the thread there and was appalled at how awful some of the people posting there were. But if it increased the number of people visiting Tuneland, then it was a good thing. For me, this really makes the case for finishing the 'What Is Tuning' web site. For anyone who's not familiar, this is the new web site we're developing in the Method Of Tuning forum. The site is intended to be a one stop place where someone who has never heard of tuning can go and learn the entire philosophical foundation of tuning as well as tuning tools and techniques. Essentially, it introduces an entirely different way of understanding audio, but also explains the whys and hows.

If it's done correctly, it will draw the reader in from the first page and help them see how tuning is the key to getting great sound in their own systems. The trouble with Tuneland is that it's a bulletin board - a type of program designed to host ongoing conversations between people. Those conversations can be, and often are, very informative, but the information that you want a new person to read and understand is scattered everywhere over hundreds of threads dating back years. We need a web site which guides new and even skeptical people through the basics of tuning, so that they can understand what Michael is talking about when he posts in a place like AudioCircle.

How powerful would it be if all of those people who came over to look at Tuneland had gone to the 'What Is Tuning' site? I bet we'd have a dozen new tunees everytime Michael put up a thread like that.
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garp



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PostSubject: More 60s Observations   Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:06 pm

This morning I was puzzled and amazed at the amount of bass that I was experiencing. Can the 60s be producing this much bass as a result of settling?

Keep in mind that the MGD sub is sitting atop a homemade stand placed in a front wall corner but not attached to my system. Since I do not a place to store the sub, it has remained in my listening room. The sub is supported by three 1st generation MTDs with a sliver of MW placed under the front MTD. With music playing, I took my Rat Shack sound level meter and placed it in front of the subwoofer cone, and it measures the same sound pressure as when I sit in front of the 60s. You can feel the bass vibrations when you touch the sub cabinet. This makes me think that the sub is acting as a passive radiator in my room and house. No matter, it sounds great!

Drewster, you might bring your sub back. Michael, any comments?
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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:55 pm

I love the way energy works. I've had the Sub (now in use as passive/pressure box) do wonderful things in some rooms and do the opposite in others, but the interesting thing to me is to see free resonance in action. You know if either of these boxes had dampening in them the result would be a disaster more than likely. If I could wave my wand it will be to get people to understand the magic that is in vibration and how when we use it as a tuning devise it can do remarkable things. Here's the magic here. Your 60's are talking to the room and the room and sub are supporting the 60's. Together as one speaker unit these things are producing pressure zones that support the musical waves being developed. Isn't that amazing Exclamation Everytime I hear someone talk about their system that doesn't know tuning I think what a waste. Here these signals are just dying to deliver perfect emotion and so many are not getting what the system in tune can do. What a powerful happening you have going on their. And in my mind I can see those waves aligning themselves as they build in pressure oneness in your room. Almost seems mystical doesn't it, and the amount of energy that builds when the signal is in harmonic balance is really vivid. Instruments jump to life and the pace is so rhythmic that it's hard to think of it as a stereo any more.

Bottle this I say and lets hit the road. when everything falls into place like that it's a moment that stays with you forever. Free resonates has a way of dissolving into the room that no amount of technology someone throws at it can ever do cause this is being done purely by the entire signal all the way through the chain vibrating at a full range potential.

Hear how the mids and highs just float right on top of the foundation? beautiful stuff Exclamation

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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:12 am


Hi Michael

Do I read you right...you have an unconnected subwoofer in the room as a passive radiator/pressure box?

Sonic
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PostSubject: 60s   Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:30 pm

Sonic,

Yes, it is hard to believe, but the sub is not attached to anything, but it seems to be reinforcing the bass response of my 60s. Since I set up the 60s in my listening room, the bass did seem better in the beginning, but after settling in the room the bass response has really increased.

Michael may have a better explanation of what is occurring, but I am very pleased with this added sonic bonus.
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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:02 pm

Hi Garp

Shipping tomorrow I hope. Just doing one more quick bake.

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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:17 am


Hi Garp

Hmmmm...I got a subwoofer around. Maybe I could do something interesting.

Garp got a question about your turntable set up - how tight do you do up the cartridge mounting screws in the headshell? And the bolts that attach the tonearm to the armboard?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Turntables and Subs   Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:43 pm

Sonic,

I am relaxing this evening listening to Bill Evans Waltz for Debbie and thinking about my turntable set up. To answer your questions, I hand tightened my tonearm to the turntable with enough tightness just to keep the arm in place. I also tighten cartridges with enough tension to properly set up the alignment. I have always followed this procedure well before I learned of tuning.

I will offer some observations on my passive MGD sub as I have compared the 60s to the Tonians with the sub not connected. There is more bass impact with the MGD sub and 60s in the listening room than with the Tonians and the MGD sub. With the MGD speakers together there seems to be more synergy; it appears they like working together. The Tonians have more natural bass energy, so they do not seem to benefit as much from the passive sub. This past weekend, I changed out a pair of 6X4 rectifier tubes in my 8 watt integrated SEP after reading a 6x4 review of these tubes at Hong Kong audio club. I am using a HK recommendation and I am impressed. The bass is not as prominent when compared to my old tubes, but it is very tight and natural with the midrange and treble improving in detail compared to the old tubes. These tubes are still burning in and settling so I will wait to see if any other changes occur. My impressions are the new tubes are much better balanced than the old tubes not emphasizing any audio area over another. I am already hearing what Drewster recently described with the same cd, Waltz for Debbie. Although I am sitting out of sweet spot as I write this update, I am enjoying a pleasant soundstage with the piano appearing on the opposite side of the room with the bass close to me and the drummer placed in the center. I feel like I am in a small club listening to the music live seated to the far left of the musicians.

Michael, I am looking forward to the arrival of the Maggie mini clamp. I will have many hours to play with this new tool over the upcoming holidays.
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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:35 am


Hi Garp

Thank you.

This is important as Sonic has dived into playing my small (and growing) collection of 78s and SPs.

While I appreciate the convenience and musical quality of my CD source, I got some early Coleman Hawkins and Debbie Reynolds plus a lot more on these early formats.

Just washed a whole bunch of these tonight with Disc Doctor and drying them out. To prove the idea, I got an Audio Technica Direct Drive (the LP120) with the 78 speed and a Shure archival 78 cartridge.

Of course a Garrard 301 with an SME 3012 will be better but I am setting out. From my acquaintances, Sonic can see that collecting and playing these early analog formats (shellac and bakelite 78s pre-dated magnetic tape) can take on a new direction for audiophiles.

Sonic
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PostSubject: 78s   Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:20 am

Sonic,

It has been many years since I have seen or heard an old shellac 78. I heard many of these old records when I was a child. Those old albums are a great part of recorded music history. It will be interesting to hear your observations of these old mono albums.

My new Ortofon (Ikeda) arm just arrived today and was fitted to the Merrill Heirloom turntable. I will be setting up the table within the next two weeks and look forward to playing some of the 500 old albums that I have not heard. It is time to start cleaning some of these albums for use with this new source.
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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:58 pm

I'm going to give a break down of garps new tuing toys.

here's the wood parts




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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:02 pm

What I would do is start with the setup above. It is probably hard to see in the pic but here's a down view.


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PostSubject: Maggie Platform   Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:01 pm

Michael,

Thanks, I guessed correctly, but your pictures will help.

Now, its time to go play!
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garp



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PostSubject: Maggie Platform   Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:26 pm


Wow! I will wait for some settling before posting more, but the Maggie platform has already taken the Maggie up two sonic levels.

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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:00 pm

cheers fantastic cheers

Should be a lot of flexibility, range wise, with those different parts. Keep me up to date.

Very Happy

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PostSubject: Mini Clamp   Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:16 pm

The Maggie and MGD Mini Clamp work very well together. I was about to provide an update last weekend, but the tragic events that occurred in a Connecticut school saddened me to the point that I decided to postpone this update.


The Mini Clamp and all of the options included by Michael in his kit have been used. At the moment I am enjoying the poplar base set up as pictured in Michael’s post of the Mini Clamp kit. With this combination and my MR EM7 amp /CR4 preamp/Tonian speaker combo, the music is detailed with a halo around instruments and voices. Imaging and soundstage has improved. In my current setup, the soundstage is large in height, but not quite as deep with sound radiating very wide outside both speakers. I really enjoy acoustical instruments and the human voice with this arrangement, very organic. Since changing out the racks, re-arranging the floor standing PZCs and adding a European white spruce tuning board on the front wall behind the racks as well as placing a seasoned poplar board behind the MGD subwoofer’s port. (The sub is still passive), I am really enjoying the overall system balance.

Using the very light in weight Music Reference components with Maggie/Mini clamp, I am enjoying the best balance from bass to treble to date. The bass is surprising generated from this small 2 ½ watt SET amp. Upright bass is detailed and fast. I am hearing the MGD sub generating energy in this arrangement apparently augmenting the main speaker’s bass.

I am about to start working on my turntable project as we approach 2013. My tonearm supports the standard headshell clip ins, so I have been looking at some interesting wood headshells on the Yamamoto Soundcraft website. Yamamoto offers headshells in ebony, boxwood, and asada cherry. I suspect a Denon 103-R and Ortofon SPU MCs would work well with these wood headshells as well as many moving iron cartridges. Incidentally, Yamamoto seems to use wood products in there amp designs as well as many MGD like tweaks.

Meanwhile, I will continue using the many combinations supplied with the mini clamp and provide future posts.


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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:02 pm


Hi Garp

Fascinating site that Yamamoto Soundcraft truly is. I've started checking it out and it is helping to feed into my plans for Sonic's system for the coming year particularly when related to analog playback and what I might want to focus on.

Sonic
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PostSubject: 45 system   Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:58 pm

I haven’t posted on my thread for some time as I have really been enjoying the sound from the Maggie DVD player sitting atop the taller platform. The smaller platform now supports my Music Reference preamp connected to my MR 245.1 45tube amp.

Although I have a fondness for older US made 45s (RCA, Tung Sol, Sylvania, National Union), the bass response has not been what I would like despite very special midrange and treble. Recently, I acquired a pair of modern 245s tubes that look like large light bulbs. These tubes still bring the midrange magic and excellent treble with the addition of deep extended bass. With volume of my normal listening in the low 80s as measured from my Radio Shack Sound Level Meter, I am experiencing the best bass to date from this combo. My MGD music ply sub still remains in the room running passive and the sound pressure meter displays the same room response when placed close to the sub’s driver or rear port as when held in the listening position. I still believe the passive sub is augmenting the bass response in my room.

As I have posted on Sonics’ thread, it’s time to set up the Merrill TT.
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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:50 am

Hi Garp

I was thinking the other day how nice it is to have these two worlds (the Maggie & TT) on TuneLand. The one thing that I think we need more of are classic systems here. In some strange way I look at the TL systems as being part of my own, esspecially when I know the listener and his flavor, style and background. I also like it that the tables that are showing up are some that I feel really good about. Not that it all has to be about me, but more that I can almost hear the sound through the words.

I have to tell you that, that forth system (tubes & tables) rolls around in my head quite a lot and I wonder if I'll ever stay put long enough to truly engage in the art again. I've seen a lot of people over the years put in tubes and talk. It's so nice to read someone who understands putting in tubes and listening Smile

A pleasure reading your thread sir.

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PostSubject: Platforms have arrived   Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:02 pm

What a surprise when I arrived home from work tonight. My new mini platform arrived!

Now a surprise for Michael. He designed this platform for my MR SET amp and my Tonian speakers, but that’s not what was used in my set up tonight to break in the new platform. Almost two weeks ago, I began rearranging my audio room and I decided to pull out my MGA Music Ply 60s out of the closet to pair with a high end integrated 8 Watt SEP amp that I had spent a lot of time enjoying this summer. Although this amp weighs on the high end of amps that I find easily tuned, I really have enjoyed it’s sound and ability to create the MGA surround sound stage. It mates very well with the Maggie CD showing excellent mid bass and bass reproduction. This amp and the MGA 60s was a match at first listen. Although the amp is rated at only 8 watts, music played using the 60s sounds like the amp has 40 or 50 watts per channel. This integrated has the ability to show the best of the 60s while overshadowing some of its weaknesses in my opinion.

Tonight, I placed the amp on the new platform using the Maggie CD and the 60s and I was awestruck. My room was shaking from the mid bass and bass response. It was like I had a powered subwoofer in the room. There are so many things that I am hearing using the new platform, it will take some time for everything to settle before I offer some better insights. Right now, this is by far the best the 60s have sounded in my household. (For Sonic’s benefit, the mini platform sits atop a wooden rack with steel rods). Michael, it may be awhile before Roger’s amp can show its stuff, because I am really enjoying the 60s, the integrated, the Maggie, and the new platform.
More later.
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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:12 pm

Very Happy  and again Very Happy 

That baby should do about what ever you tell it to. It was a pleasure making it. When I put it on for a test run I about jumped out of my seat there was so much more music in my soundstage. My mini's became sats and subs without the sub, kinda like you described.

I'm building a twin for my own use Laughing , you can't have all the fun.

thanks for the report

for those who didn't see it on my thread


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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:12 am

Ooh Michael, When will my Platforms be ready Crying or Very sad 
I'm so jealous of Garp Rolling Eyes 
Can't wait to hear how it sounds like when inside my room affraid 
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PostSubject: Mini Platform   Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:02 pm

Sorry Hiend, but your long wait will be worth it as it was for me. This platform is amazing. I am hearing as Michael added "so much more music in the soundstage" I have never heard as much bass energy out of the 60s without help from a sub. You can feel the bass as if played live at a small music venue.

I will be spending so more time tonight listening. If Michael's new products are as good as this new toy, I will be standing in line to order.
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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:17 am


As they say "resistance is futile, earthlings" Wink 

I'll probably start with music ply for shelves and FS-PZCs or get from Michael the wood fronts he made for the RoomTunes in Bill333's wonderful room.
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PostSubject: Mini platform, etc.   Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:42 pm

Sonic beat me to the transition from rack to platform, but I finally rearranged my shelving on steel rods and brass spikes suspended six inches above the floor with the mini platform placed in the middle shelf with the Maggie CD player at the left as you face the system. I have a wooden table maybe twice the length of Sonic’s current turntable behind the racks which is suspended by brass spikes for isolation. I am hoping Michael can offer a top platform for this table to hold two turntables.

I am also using a vintage integrated amp an Eico HF 81 tubed of course with all nos Mullard tubes restored by a gentleman in Memphis. Although the amp is rated at 14 watts per channel, this ugly duckling is more than enough power for my 95 dB speakers. The Eico’s are not for those seeking eye candy to impress their friends, but those seeking exceptional sonics will be amazed by this late 1950s amp. As I have already shared privately with Michael, this amp already offers the biggest soundstage in height, width, and depth that I have experienced in my home. There seems to be a synergy between the Mullard tubes and this Eico. Yes, there is a warmth to the sound, but there is a surprising amount of detail, almost SET like. The bass is not as rounded as you might expect from a vintage tube amp using Mullard tubes. I am really enjoying this bass. Mullard tubes are known for their midrange and the treble does not disappoint. With the Eico, I am already experiencing some details in recordings that I thought my SET amps were better at conveying. Not so.

The biggest plus for me is I can listen to this amp all day long and not experience the fatigue that modern, sterile tube amps and all class d amps give me after listening to one cd. The Eico/Maggie/mini platform/lower shelving combo is sounding excellent!

Happy Thanksgiving to all,
Garp

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