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 Robert Harrison's Tunable System

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Robert Harrison



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Location : Harwood Heights, Illinois

PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:47 pm

Hey, Mr. Green,

We were writing at the same time. I have to do some work now, but I wil answer your newest questions later.
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Robert Harrison



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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:16 pm

Hey, Mr. Green,

It's kind of spooky you should mention those floorstanders as I was going to put them in the front corners until I read your most recent posts about moving the speakers.

I will really have to listen to those crickets again because that kick drum kept me derailed. I will say they were never in front of the speakers or off to the side. I don't recall much in the way or height or depth either.

By the way, I'm pretty sure I sent you a copy of that "Pure Moods" CD so we have a another common recording to listen to. No doubt you will come up with amazing observations and I will be sitting here, slack-jawed, thinking how I can attain the same.
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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:02 pm

What is that movie, you would know, I think it's "soylent green" where at the end of your life you walk into this pleasant room with a video playing and dreamy music and you just relax as they put you down. I'm sure "pure moods" would be on the list of choices. What a super cast of characters to listen to. I'm firing up the small room system with it now.

I may not return, it's got some of my favorite artist on it.

I have to add this list

1. Return To Innocence - Enigma
2. Orinoco Flow (Sail Away) - Enya
3. Sweet Lullaby - Deep Forest
4. Oxygene Part lV - Jean Michele Jarre
5. X-Files Theme (DADO Paranormal Activity Mix) - DJ Dado
6. Tubular Bells Part 1 (Edit) - Mike Oldfield
7. Sadeness - Enigma
8. Adiemus - Adiemus
9. Crockett's Theme - Jan Hammer
10. Theme From 'The Mission' - Ennio Morricone
11. Main Title Theme (The Last Emperor) - David Byrne
12. Wishes Of Happiness & Prosperity - Sacred Spirits
13. Theme From Twin Peaks-Fire Walk With Me - Angelo Badalamenti
14. Makambo - Geoffrey Oryema
15. My Wife With Champagne Shoulders - Mark Isham
16. The Promise - Michael Nyman
17. Lily Was Here - David A. Stewart

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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:23 pm

Hi Robert

Well, I do have to run out and get some stuff done, but I did a quick run through of the songs and realized I had to sit down for a moment Very Happy . I'll be letting moods play for the night to break in, but I made some starter notes.

First the system.

MGA EQ Platform
Maggie 100 DVD player (mini tuning board & 3 AA1X1 cones)
Picasso
Sherwood 4105
Bare Essence
82 (protos no inside tuning bar yet)
RoomTune
PZC (protos with MG AAZ Spikes)
SoundStage (proto)
4X4 Rear SAM

First thing I noticed was no U shape soundstage. Soundstage goes pretty much 3D front to back, side to side. I can hear one dead spot that I will have to fix just left of the left speaker that goes 3 feet wide along the side wall that starts about a foot in front of the speaker and goes to the back side of the room 3 feet back but the rest of the room is full. I'll have to fix this quick cause this CD wants to run me over with front to rear soundstage on most of the songs I noticed. This kinda surprised me having the 82's in there cause they seem so big for this just shy of 9 feet wide room, yet they completely disappeared from the first note with this CD (good choice). It's almost scary that the first listen was as good as it was. I think it will be a good thing to tune the tuning bar on the 82's to this Cd. We will see how that goes. In the meantime fire away with any stage questions and I'll go in and tell you what I'm getting.

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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:31 am



Hi Michael (and Robert)

Those questions about Sun King are great to give a sense of where the system is. Maybe all reading this site should give it a try.

For me, after Sonic's latest system move (see my post today), I'll describe the Sun King Sound and the you both can see where I have got to, or missed the mark....

Sonic

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Robert Harrison



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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:46 pm

Hey, Mr. Green,

I know "Pure Moods" can do more than what I am getting now, because I used to get it, even in the other room's original configuration, provided I had those floorstanders behind me.

back wall with 2 RT Squares added by ozonerman, on Flickr
For the sake of keeping everyone on the same page, these are regular MDF shelves painted black that I have been using as ersatz Aeroplanes. They were not made by Mr. Green. I have been playing with these separately and put next to each other as in this early picture, where I was then sitting 7 feet from the rear wall in my original larger media room and was checking out the effect of having a panel directly behind my chair.

Now I am sitting close to a wall, actually the edge of closet doors seen below.

New Media Room 004 by ozonerman, on Flickr
No doubt that is part of what is making this room tricky. But, on to "Pure Moods."

Tracks 12, 14 and 15 are the ones that used to get me emotionally involved every time I heard them. I recall how the echo of the voice on track 12 would bounce around to the sides of my head in the configuration shown in the first photo above. I must be going backward if I can't even get the sound to come out from the plane of the speakers currently.

And, back to emotional involvement, I love the simplicity of track 14 with just a voice, a guitar (or is it two?) and that haunting, echoey whistle. And on track 15, it is that synthesized "wail" that really gets to me and by the time the tune fades out, I want to listen to the whole track again.

Yep, overall, a neat collection of music, although somebody messed up and mixed the Oldfield track into mono. I know it was stereo and was even re-mixed into quad when that was semi-popular in the 1970s.

So, it's back to the archives to try to figure out pressure zones and laminar flow.
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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:06 am

Hi Robert

I'm a big fan of Jean Michel Jarre, Enya, and Julee Cruise, so of course I'm imeadiately attracted to these songs on the cd. Listening to 12, 14 and 15 gave me a different focus, thanks. While songs 12 and 15 are nice I am pulled in by 14 over hte other 2. This may and probably will change as more voicing is done on the 82 cabinet, but I'm not rushing it.

Song 12 is like filling a cup with water. After about 3 seconds and the first little boost of air hits right before the synthesized cello you realize the room is full of air, and as I said earlier you can hear the pressure zones either in balance or out of balance with each other. I have not fixed my left zone yet cause I don't want to mess up other things I'm listening for in the speakers but maybe some time today I will play a little with that. I have a feeling it's one of my echotunes off just a hair. That area still fills, it's just not as pressurized as the other ones. So coming back to this song after a little time will be the thing to do. Also song 15 is recorded differently than the other two and I will either need to set up the system like I would if I was listening to a lot of things during a night or tweak in one song at a time to see how far they will go on their own. Keep in mind though that all these songs are about air and can be used as a room pressure guide. This brings me to song 14 which is becoming one of my favorites (for now) on the cd. 14 grabs your attention in a big way as it's doing some very deliberate echo-paning-volume games. Really nice echo effects that come all the way out past your ears and back into the front again. In my little room I measured one of those echos to be 8 ft front to back and back again which makes the effect very exciting. Different echo effects are used on the guitar, vocal and sinth and they are all cordinated like a dance flowing in and out. One thing I need to do is get out my Abbey Road cause these songs are so big in this little space that I almost feel like I'm in the middle of this big sound pillow with no boundaries. Not complaining, love the effect but the stages are going right past the walls as if they were never there and gives you a "where does it end feeling". Fortunately song 16 hits and someone placed a full size piano in the room. I would think this to be another great test as the piano is a beautifully perfect straight line across the room with wonderful air in front and in back of it. There is absolutely no room curve to the piano and never does any of it get near or be tempted by the speakers. In fact surprisingly enough even though I have a desire to separately tweak some of the compilation not one of the recordings sit in the speakers in any way. The speakers are not there, it is all pressure zone.

Once I get past the size of the air in these recordings I will hopefully be able to focus on specifics, but when you are in the middle of so much air and like with song 12 there are 5 layers with info in all of them begging your attention, it will be easier to pick out particular cues. Like with song 12 though, the layers are thick and full of their own space.

I have tons of comments about many other pieces on this CD but as you guys know I'm not going to rush because there is so much for me to learn about them yet. I can tell you though that I am going to go out and get the soundtrack for "the misson" again as this little clip makes me want to throw myself into some of the most passionate music I have ever heard.

This cd is a great teaser and only gives a taste to what these artists can do and for those who pick this up it would be worth while to pick up their "whole recording". For example after listening to Oxygene lV it took everything within me not to put the whole CD on and forget the sample.

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Robert Harrison



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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:43 pm

Hey, Mr. Green,

I spent the last 2 nights trying some more moves. I brought the floorstanders into the room and placed them on either side of the TV, half way between the screen and side wall, angled towards me. There is another New Age type of collection I haven't listened to in a while. They incorporate a lot of nature sounds like crashing waves and seals and what not. I moved my chair closer to the plane of the speakers to try to lock in the "realness" of the animal cries and waves hitting the shore, but found the sound got duller.

Last night, I watched "Starcrash" on DVD, an early "Star Wars" rip-off from the late 1970s. It sounded dull and "oppressive," that closed in thing you asked me to convey should it arise. Voices were usually presented centered, in which case they would image at the TV, but once in a while they would be panned hard left or right, and in these instances, they were plastered to the speaker panels. However, moving my chair back a couple of inches, brought back some air and even some sense of sound in the back half of the room.

After that, I watched "Winged Migration," a documentary about migratory birds, full of bird calls and natural sounds (even an avalanche in one scene; my bass is still there). During this movie, I kept playing with the placement of the floorstanders in an attempt to listen to the pressure zone balance. This has been hard for me to comprehend. I can hear differences when I move things, but I don't yet understand what my moves are doing overall.

For instance, moving the floorstanders to the side walls, a couple of feet from the front wall and angled back to that front wall, brought a nice sense of stage across the front of the room. Angling them out toward me brought some sound to the back of the room. That right speaker still makes itself known when there is some deep bass sent there. It's probably because that speaker is underneath that soffit and the left speaker is under the higher drop ceiling.

At any rate, I ended up putting the chair and speakers back to where I started. I will try to get more accustomed to hearing how the pressure distributes in the room, as you say those "Pure Moods" tracks can be tools.
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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:55 pm

Hi Robert

Are your grills on your maggies? I'm hearing a lot of cloth in your room.

Have you taken off the outlet covers in the room? If you take off the covers and loosen the outlets things will open up.

Your sound is being absorbed and the electric has got blockage. In the bigger space there was more forgiveness for these things but in the smaller room you have more pressure and things like this are going to stick out more. The flip side to this is dynamic range. Once things are opened up and cleaned up from dampening the pressure will even out. But, by the sound of things I question the choice of chair. Sure would be nice to get you into a leather one.

Do you have anything in the cabinet under the TV?

I'm preparing a care kit for you, but would really like to hear the outlets opened and the grills gone and the TV stand with and without something in it. Also do you have wood shims? If so wedge them under the closet doors.

Joanne Fabrics sells a vinyl that looks like leather. It's on the wall in rolls. If you got a yard of that you would have enough to cover where your ears are on the chair (don't worry it's comfy) and go back behind the back of the chair. If you want I can make a drawing and show you how I did one of my chairs.

Now, if you don't need the light from the window you can cover the space with cardboard (finished cardboard, the white stuff) and let me know what that does.

Also could you do me a favor and get me a pic of the equipment platform and TV stand from where you sit? thanks

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Robert Harrison



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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:36 pm

Hey, Mr. Green,

Let's go over your questions and suggestions.

media room 9 14 2012 011 by ozonerman, on Flickr

New Media Room 008 by ozonerman, on Flickr
The "sock" that covers the speaker panel is an integral part. I would literally have to rip it to shreds to get it off. Perhaps earlier designs were different, but the 1.6QR doesn't lend itself to shedding the fabric. I need to keep these speakers intact for when I get yours so I can pass the Magnepans on to someone else. Personally, I hear more metal, that being the Panasonic plasma TV. When I have time, I might have to look in to taking off the TV's rear panel, if it can be done easily. I'm not much on projects. I have an RT Square directly centered on the wall behind the TV panel, per your suggestion. Perhaps I need some wood back there? I say that because...

media room 9 14 2012 012 by ozonerman, on Flickr
...a couple of nights ago I brought the shelf that had been in the bottom of the TV stand back into the room (that area had been completely empty since I moved into the new room). I propped it up against the front opening where it covers it side to side, but leaves about 3 inches on the top. I want to see what that does for me after some settling time. A first impression is that it will be beneficial.

I would love to take those outlets out of the wall, but, as I stated recently, I KNOW my elderly mother would consider that a fire hazard and fret about it constantly. She has enough to deal with psychologically, so I don't want to add to her woes. Alternatively, somewhere in the archives, I saw a picture of a wooden outlet cover. Is that something you made or is it an item I might find at Home Depot? At any rate, I can at least loosen the screws of the cover and the outlet itself.

And now, in succession, my view from the listening chair, from the floor up...

media room 9 14 2012 002 by ozonerman, on Flickr

media room 9 14 2012 003 by ozonerman, on Flickr

media room 9 14 2012 004 by ozonerman, on Flickr

About the window well, my first thought had been to put a piece of cardborad in the there, but then I got the idea to put up plastic. I have some cardboard handy, so I will try that out instead. I will look into that vinyl with the appearance of leather as I don't think I will be getting a leather recliner any time soon.

Now a view of where I currently have the floorstanders.

media room 9 14 2012 005 by ozonerman, on Flickr

media room 9 14 2012 006 by ozonerman, on Flickr
I have them in the left front corner and left rear corner, angling out toward the center of the room. It's hard to tell from the photo, but the left rear floorstander is there and has a thin lamp pole in front of it. My question is about laminar flow. What do Sound Shutters and Areoplanes do with the sound waves? Do they direct them out away from the wall, merely disrupt the flow, or both? If I have more energy on the right side of the room, am I directing more energy from the left side to compensate, or should I do the opposite?


media room 9 14 2012 007 by ozonerman, on Flickr
This is the upper right rear corner, with an RT Square at an angle, starddling the ceiling and wall and another one on the left wall, facing inward instead of the usual facing toward room front.


media room 9 14 2012 008 by ozonerman, on Flickr
There is a space about an inch high under the closet doors.


media room 9 14 2012 009 by ozonerman, on Flickr
Here is the Panasonic Blu-ray player, top off, screws loose, not merely cracked.


media room 9 14 2012 010 by ozonerman, on Flickr
And the Pioneer, with top, sides and bottom plates off, screws cracked and ties cut. As I said, I'm not one for projects, so I won't be tearing this down any more than it is.
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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:38 am

This helps me TONS!!!

Now I can custom design goodies around your parameters.

The outlets you saw were treated by me and can be made with springs which allows you to tune them.

Your DIY AreoPlanes are mostly redirecting the energy but they are doing some vibrating which is adding their flavor to the sound.

Your room has endless tweaks. It's a big pressure box that has it's own sound based on the materials it is made out of. When pressure is created in the room it responds to the always vibrating walls creating it's own signature tones plus the new energy (sound waves). We think of rooms and walls standing still but they are always in motion. Scientist have tried to put numbers on this but the reality is that the frequencies that are on going in your room house and ground are full range and not the 7. whatever hz that keeps getting changed and turn into a mystic occurrence. Why do I tell you this to answer your "how does laminar flow work" question? Easy, half of what you are doing to you sound is literally a feeling. It's cool that you are into Vibes and Vibe music cause this in the long run is going to help you tons. I don't know if you'll end up in the little room or not but I do think that smaller rooms have some things larger rooms don't. What you are now getting use to is being a lot closer to the Lamar flow of the room's boundaries. In your room (because of being on the ground floor and having a drop ceiling) the walls are your main tuners. When sound pressure happens in your room's interior the room reacts so fast you can't really hear the timing of events but you can certainly feel it and your ears and body know what to do with it. If you were to look at your room with your energy glasses on you would see two main walls, your physical walls and laminar walls. Every object in your room has laminar walls. These are different distances for each surface depending on the size of the surface and the material the surface is made out of. A laminar wall is created by on coming waves colliding with waves that are coming off of the wall. Think of it like an oceans under toe. While waves are hitting the shore they are effected by the waves coming back off of the shore into the ocean again. The difference between your room and an ocean is that your room is enclosed and the shoreline is all over your room and everything that touches the walls of your room. As energy heads toward your walls it hits energy coming off the walls and as they hit some of the energy is pushed sideways and up and down the wall (knida like pouring a liquid on the floor and it spreading out more than splashing). In fact except for a few frequencies that do slash or splatter most of what you hear is laminar effect and not the actual sound of the wall. As the energy spreads over the wall it heads toward the corners and mid seams and collides with them which is the beginning of loading. Loading combined with laminar pressure and the sound of the contents of your room is what makes the sound you hear.

I have found that there are two types of listening. One using the walls to shape the big picture of the sound since they are the biggest contributor of the sound. And 2, trying to eliminate the sound of the wall by replacing it with small neutralizing pressure objects. The second actually does make it so the sound comes from your speaker to your ears but brings with it a ton of other problems. And when I say a ton believe me they are far more than the audiophile world is ready to deal with.

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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:05 am

Here's the room with nothing in it.



Here are the things effecting the sound of the basic wood drywall sound blend. Note: basic wood studs with drywall (not doubled) are pretty balanced sounding rooms with the right paint. You'll notice your voice sounds better (more full) under the drywall than the drop ceiling. The drop ceiling is absorbing some of the sound. The plastic screen over the light is a little phasy sounding (tinty). Also you can hear a dip by the window that sounds like it is cutting into the sound of the left wall. But this might be a good thing if it offsets the lowered ceiling on the other side. My speakers will not be as tall helping with the sound of the lowered ceiling. The back right corner sounds more like the materials of the doors than the other corners.



Here's a look at the basic laminar flow and pressure zones of the room without anything in.



The scary thing is how little it takes to change the sound of these zones.

What you have been doing with your floorstanders is making the pressure zones bigger and smaller as well as cutting off the laminar flow when you get the FS within 5" of the wall. Sound Shutters might be a cool tool but playing with FS will give you the general idea. When you sit there is a space between the back of your chair and the back wall. In this area set a FS on the floor side ways on a 45 degree angle and tell me what it does to the bass.


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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:04 am

I was thinking maybe we should modify your chair a Little. If we covered the back and the sides of it with our vinyl/leather it would keep the sound from getting sucked into it as much. What this would do is clean up the pressure zone that you are sitting in. When you get the MGA speakers this will mean the grill cloths are out of there and if we can get rid of some of the chair sound plus balance the TV stand we will take a huge jump forward.

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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:14 pm

Ok

Now on to the Pioneer. With mine you have seen me with 2 boards running underneath and under those boards I put whatever cone I wish to voice with. This gives me a lot of flexibility but it also makes for a lot of work. What I'm making for you is a pretty cool toy part way between a signature stand and what I had. Instead of you switching in and out cones your stand comes with spikes. After you listen to it and report back to me I will know what to do for the DVD player or fix on the pioneer tuning stand.

Also just so folks know Robert is on the tuning program. Basically we're custom designing to his room and sound likes. It's a little different than regular systems in that he is going all MGA so we are not working around other components characters with the exception of the DVD player and the TV and stand. I think that the DVD player is going to be simple enough to tune and if need be we can design a stand for the TV. There is some tweaking involved but the good news is once we are on the right track we can make toys more fixed and settling after that becomes the biggest tweak. If we get lucky a big part of the tweaking will be done on my end so after a couple of screw turns and some settling things will fall into place.

The Platforms are starting to breakin I would think but they still probably won't start singing for a couple of months. After that the effects of the floor's inability to ground should be over. If (cross our fingers) it's a dry week the Pioneer stand should be on it's way with some cables. This should tells me a bunch about how things are doing in there.

BTW just as a note. Grill cloth was born on a bad alien planet and sent here to dull the ears.

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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:40 pm

Hey, Mr. Green,

So, in your opinion, I'll bet there's no such thing as "acoustically transparent?" Believe me, if that fabric could come off, I would have done that when I got those speakers, as I had done with other speakers I have had.

Now, let's see if we can nail down the particular Joann fabric you mentioned. On their website www.joann.com/ I selected "fabric" and then "vinyl" and found a product called Whisper Soft Vinyl. It is described as leather-look vinyl with a leather grain matt finish and woven polyester backing. Is this what you were indicating?

Concerning the drop ceiling, I found a website called Wish I Had That.com www.wishihadthat.com/ and they manufacture lay-in, standard grid wood tiles. Basic price for each 2' x 2' unstained panel is $20 each for red oak or birch (additional charge of $3 for maple or cherry). The minimum order is for 16 tiles, which just about does my room, with free shipping. That's $320. I could go the builder's paper route, too, but I wanted to run this by you.

I haven't priced leather recliners, they might be more or less than that, but what is the bigger offender in my room right now, the ceiling tiles or the chair? Your input would be appreciated as I mull these things over.

In the meantime, I will try the cardboard in the window well and take an FS and do as you suggest behind my chair.

Now, in my continual quest to understand pressure zones, what exactly am I trying to do with them? Am I trying to get them to spread out through the entirety of the room? I know somewhere you have a graphic of how putting something in a zone squashes it. Also, I believe you have said that shrinking one zone enlarges another. Is it always an ajacent zone? Sorry to be such a bad student, but I really want to get my head around these concepts so tuning can become more intuitive for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:20 pm

Hey, Mr. Green,

media room 9 14 2012 001 by ozonerman, on Flickr
I moved the left rear FS and laid it down as you suggested behind my chair. It touches the wall on one end, but the closet doors are recessed so there is a gap there of about an inch. You asked me comment on the bass but I was distracted by the fact that suddenly the back half of the room finally decided to join in the party. I listened to "Pure Moods" and it was coming out into the room now unlike the last listen when it was doing the dreaded U-shaped thing in the front half. I'll have to get back to you on what difference there may be in the bass. But I was able to once more get emotionally involved with my favorite tracks, so better days must be coming. cheers

Since we are going over things with a fine tooth comb, I thought I would show you my electrical panel, hanging on the northwest corner of the basement. 2 years ago I took off the surrounding front panel and loosened the 6 screws that the arrows point to, 4 holding the rear of the panel to the wall and 2 more on the front face.

media room 9 14 2012 006 by ozonerman, on Flickr
Should I be loosening these other screws, the ones actually attached to the various wires (indicated by the yellow circles)?

media room 9 14 2012 005 by ozonerman, on Flickr

media room 9 14 2012 010 by ozonerman, on Flickr
Do I need to shut off the main power switch before doing so? Same goes for loosening screws in outlets; should I shut off power to that room first? By the way, I have three outlets with plastic covers in my media room. The one pictured here is the outlet I currently have the player and receiver plugged into. The tape mark on the top plug is for a yet to be done experiment on polarity of the Pioneer, as it does not have a polarized plug. At some future date, I'm interested in seeing what, if anything, will happen to the sound if I flip the plug over.

media room 9 14 2012 009 by ozonerman, on Flickr
(The wall is pink; my cheap camera takes some liberties with color reproduction occasionally.)
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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:40 pm

Hi Robert

My basic answer for grill cloth is, "something between you and the speaker is something between you and the music". No matter how light, sound waves have to fight to get through.

I'm so pleased with your progress cheers . Those vinyls didn't look that cool to me. I should just send you some Select vinyl. Would you go to Select RT in the product section and choose a color for me to send.

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t69-rt-select-acoustical-treatment

If you decide to get tiles 2X2 you might as well have me make tunable room panels, or we could do a veneer wood piece that fits with the current ceiling. You know I kinda like that idea. Lets get a number of panels you need and the partial panels measurements. I have some great veneer sheets in mind that I could voice and send to you. Could you take a picture of one of the tiles if you have one laying around?

If we could do the panels at the right price and the vinyl, we could see how both work to clean things up then see if we need to be looking for a comfy yet good sounding chair.

The goal with pressure zones is to make them fairly balanced but not dead. Any time I have ever walked into a dead zoned room I hear music missing. If you go in your room and shut the door we can walk through it and see how big your zones are. Ok, now if you stand in the right rear corner you will hear (while your talking) a little bit of amplification of your voice. It won't be big cause you already have a tune up. Stand about a foot from that corner and move out to the room going backwards until you hear the amplification go down a little. At that point turn around and in your size of room you should be able to hear the center pressure zone beginning. Walk toward the center and listen to the build up. If you do this in all the corners (walking from corner out, and from center of the room to the corners) you will hear your voice rise in volume and decrease. Some where between the center of the room and the corner you will hear the decrease and rise again. This area is the edge of the pressure zone. Once you figure those areas out, you can go stand in each zone and listen to how it is different from the other zones. Rooms your size and build are cool cause with the exception of your hard floor your not getting too much weird phasing going on.


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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:42 pm

The move you made behind your chair is brilliant! Again this tells me there is plenty of good energy in your room to tune. Now that you did this, get use to the sound and move your TV stand 3" closer to you and listen for even more emotion or if it goes in the opposite direction. That front pressure zone should have been energised a little by you controlling the one behind you. My guess is that there is energy behind that TV that wants to be a little bigger. With all this be paying attention to if your speakers disappear more or less.

Fuse boxes need to be approached with caution always. I don't turn mine off cause I feel comfortable with what I am doing but for the purposed of me not being liable for any one else I would need to say hire an electrician to make any adjustments.

I can't tell you what to do with your box, but I can say that the looser the screws are the more open the sound becomes. The same with your outlets. Every where there is tension in the systems flow there is energy blockage. There is a point of maximum transfer of energy flow and it is not tight.

Electricians use proper rubber gloves and rubber shoes and well insulated screw drivers.

BTW the main feed to the box usually stays fairly tight to prevent brown out. I have experienced brown out first hand from main leads being loosened on an electrical panel and in the experiment there was a place right before this took place where the sound was effortless. However the main connection needed to stay tighter than the rest of the screws sound wise.

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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:10 pm

Hey, Mr. Green,

Regarding the color of the vinyl, WINE looks appealing to me.

As to replacing the ceiling tiles, you had never mentioned your own options before, so I didn't even think of it. As you told me recently, nobody who works with wood is "sounding" it except you. So, that is something for us to discuss, via PM if you wish.

2' by 2' ceiling tiles and partials by ozonerman, on Flickr
Here is a look at the 2 foot by 2 foot grids and the partials which run along the front and right side (and a glimpse of the 2 foot by 4 foot florescent light fixture cover in the top left of the photo). I was concerned with the 2 foot by 4 foot grids in the bigger room not being able to hold much else than lightweight fiberglass panels (not to mention all the square footage to be covered). I suppose a smaller grid would have more ability to hold something a little heavier, eh?

ceiling tile (face side) by ozonerman, on Flickr
Here is one of the 2' x 2' panels, face side showing (with a thin plastic covering).

ceiling tile (away side) by ozonerman, on Flickr
The "away" side, about a half inch of fiberglass.

There would be a total of sixteen full size 23 and 3/4 inch by 23 and 3/4 inch panels. Partials include a total of six 23 and 3/4 inch by 4 inch slats; a total of three 23 and 3/4 inch by 3 and 1/4 inch slats; and one tiny 4 and 1/8 inch by 3 and 1/4 inch square for the front right corner.
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PostSubject: Listening to FROM THE GEKKO   Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:07 pm

Hey, Tunees, Zonees and all the ships at sea,

I moved the TV stand 3 inches further away from the front wall a few days ago. While this enlarged the front zone, it took away from the "rear fill" effect I thought I was getting back.

Daboa's CD entitled "From the Gekko" arrived in the mail yesterday (thanx and a tip of the hat to garp for mentioning this release in his music review).

Daboa From The Gekko 1997 by ozonerman, on Flickr

After an 11 hour shift at work, I did the usual warm-up thing by watching an episode of "The Lucy Show" on DVD. I put one of my floorstanders half way between the right speaker and the front wall, angled toward me. I had noticed during a recent acoustic field trip that there is a lot of energy in that front right quadrant, so this was my attempt to spread it out.

The day caught up with me, as it usually does, and I starting dozing a few tracks in whilst listening to the CD after turning the TV off. When the silence of the disc stopping woke me up (isn't that weird?), I started playing "Gekko" again.

To quote garp: The disc commences with what may be the deepest crunch of sheer bass you may encounter, simulating the giant mortars called "Pilones" used by women in the central coast of Venezuela to mash corn.

This track, titled "Canton Del Pilon," features this sound effect, plus the singer's voice, jumping from channel to channel. What I was getting was this: the right channel image was just behind the right speaker (an effect I was getting with "Sun King," perhaps exacerbated by the FS), but the left channel image went up to the front left corner of the room. No doubt garp got better results than this. The bass response, as usual in my room, was pretty good, though...

...until I got to track 3, "Bein' Green," a song not about Michael Green Laughing , but a cover version of the old Kermit the Frog favorite. Once the bass line got going on this one, it sort of bounced through me and ran off to the boundaries of the room. Strange stuff. I considered if maybe it was a case of inverted polarity as Bill333 was discussing earlier this year.

Well, this lead me to repeating a (panicky) maneuver I had done so much of in the bigger room over the years, wherein I began to move my chair closer and closer to the plane of the speakers, listening at each new position to hear the sonic change. The image got taller and usually more detailed with each move, but that bass was still kind of weird.

As I have admitted, I tend to fall into that trap of accepting more detail and "tighter" bass as better, when in fact I'm probably just murdering the harmonics as well as the deep bass response, which, in the case of such quick A/Bs, I may deign to be "mooshier," i.e. worse.

After so many moves of the chair, I moved the speakers an inch closer to my listening position. I left it at the "mooshier" bass position and called it a night. I'll let that stand for awhile and see if anything is better or worse with recordings I know intimately.

I will say this. I'm still in that suburb of TuneLand called Sweet Spot Village. If I move my head, the stage goes with me, so there's much to worked on yet or I'm stuck with that "head in a vise" thing.

I'm not bummed today, though. All of this is fascinating. To use an analogy of dating, I really must try to stop spending all of my time with Acoustic Energy and begin paying attention to her sisters, Mechanical Energy and Electrical Energy. Those girls will no doubt show me a good time, also.

(My apologies to the ladies.)
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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:31 pm

Hi Robert

Well this is working out perfect! You have energy to use at the front of the room that is responding to the back pressure zone. See how the two can work together? You can use the front to balance the back and vice versa. Man would I have fun if I was there.

OK, we have Picasso being made and Bare Essence. We have stands for both components and I think we should do the ceiling. I looked up your weather and humidity. Is it really going to be 39 tonight? burrrr. If I can get the stands done I'll try to get them out by the end of the week with cable.

I like the way your DIY FS panels are sounding for now but I think we need some PZC slim FS or full size in there or new DecoTunes but if I can get the ceiling panels done fast we can hear that before making the choice on size of speaker and PZCs. The panels will be light weight and pop into place without removing the existing panels. I was hoping you had that type cause this will work great with the MGA wood and your panels on top of them to be the burners. Your wire hangers must be really close to your floor joists above.

Keep making listening notes cause goodies are going to get there pretty quick and this will be a lot of changes.

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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:49 pm

Hey, Zonees,

My thread started off under the title "Drop Ceilings: Good or Bad?" Mr. Green had his usual good advice about what one could do about making the tiles "soundtastic." Options were: wrapping the existing tiles in builder's paper or cutting pieces of OSB or drywall into the necessary sizes and pushing these up into the grid, leaving the original tiles sitting above the new material. We have agreed now to go for another option, now that I don't have so much area to cover: quarter inch thick wood panels, which will still be pushed up into the grid, leaving the original panels for mass and burn.

I still find it interesting that mass is usually referred to as a mess in The Land Of The Tune, but I reckon that concerns what is in the room, not the materials that surround the room (walls, ceiling, floor)?

Now we move on to "Fabric: The Tune Killer." I have been insisting that I must use my fabric recliner, but one doesn't hang around TuneLand for over 2 years and not evolve. Mr. Green has been mentioning seat covers made of leather or vinyl as a "fix-it." I figured it was about time that I see and hear for myself what I may be missing. Perhaps this "tail chasing" I frequently complain about is partially due to always having had fabric chairs in my set-ups. A quick and cheap experiment was for me to bring in an old kitchen chair.

fabric recliner listening chair by ozonerman, on Flickr
GOING TO THE DUGOUT

listening chair side view by ozonerman, on Flickr
NOW PINCH HITTING...KITCHEN CHAIR

listening chair front view by ozonerman, on Flickr
(I have a remote light dimmer, hence what appears to be numerous power cables on the floor. And that blue mat is a 2' square rubber piece; I used a different color mat before when using a standard (fabric) chair to keep my tootsies from getting cold on that tile covered cement floor.)

I got home from work later than I had anticipated last night, but I made the switch before watching an episode of "The Lucy Show," which is about all the warm-up time I have most evenings. Then it was on to one of my New Age mix CDs.

Obviously, there is now more room for the air pressure to circulate. No fabric, just leather (or vinyl, not sure which) and metal (and whatever the casters are made of). I moved back closer to the wall and closet doors. My ear height from the floor changed from 38" to 46." My head was unimpeded, as the backrest only comes up to the bottom of my shoulder blades.

Once I had moved the TV stand 3" further from the wall behind it, I began to lose the rear fill with the other chair. A problem with a chair back is that when I move forward, I think, "Hey, this is better." But, when I move the chair instead of just my head, it hardly ever pans out the same, leading to more tail chasing.

So, that having been said, my initial experience with this other chair is that I was emotionally involved with the music last night. I heard some rear fill. There is one track by guitarist Will Ackerman where the guitar always images on the right side of the room. I was hearing this off the side when I turned my head. It actually stretched along most of the right wall, but I'll take that for starters, as opposed to merely imaging in the front half of the room. I didn't hear much of the speakers calling attention to themselves in an egregious manner. When I did, I would turn my head to the speaker in question and it would seem to emanate from the area around the speaker instead of in or on the speaker.

So, class, all together now...

'LET'S SEE WHAT SOME DAYS OF SETTLING REVEAL."

Good, class. Time for recess.
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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:04 pm

I'm attracted to a few looks. The lazy boy chair look is not one of them cause most people do use the fabric ones and not the leather ones. The mod look however I have always liked and when Herman Miller had me consult for them it was a highlight in my life.

Now on to the MGA Ceiling panels. They look great! Even before finishing they have a nice full range tone. Their the same panels as used in the Tunable room only thinner.


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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:03 pm

Hey, Mr. Green,

In the words of Bob and Doug MacKenzie: "Beauty, eh?"

Bob and Doug McKenzie by ozonerman, on Flickr
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PostSubject: Re: Robert Harrison's Tunable System   Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:07 am


Hi Robert

Your placement of a panel behind your listening chair in the right angle formed by the wall and floor helped me arrive at the solution to get my room more tuned. Of course Sonic hesitates to say that I have "tuned my room" because I have been learning that there is so much more to tuning that I cannot say it is done, just the turning of a chapter.

What is the ceiling panel made of -- is it a wood piece or is there some form of "burn" material involved?

Sonic
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