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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:39 am


Michael

Another question -- to float interconnects, what's the effect of usingthin cotton thread or fishing line to suspend them at one point along their length?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:50 pm

Bill333 wrote:
How are you liking the Type 1 Picasso? It's certainly a very different looking cable from the standard twisted multistrand Picasso interconnect.

Hi Bill

So far so good. The more I make my system to one gauge the more coherent it becomes. I do have to say that when doing this finding the "right" gauge is a must.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:54 pm

Hi Sonic

a) I wanted to hear the components on each outlet in the room to see how the outlets sound. To do this I have different length power wires. So far this is my favorite configuration, but as things move forward this might change.

b) The power cables are actually about 6-8" off the ground, only touching the outlet and the receiver.

c) The Pioneer circuit board is out of it's case and setting on Douglas Fir squares which are sitting on an Argentina Pine Tuning Board sitting on 2 AAB1X1 and 1 AABsb sitting on a 39" X 23" X 6.5" A P platform sitting on the floor.

d) The wall is fastened with a tunable pressure seam so I can adjust the sound of the wall on the wall it is attached to. On the opposite side where the screen covered port is, it is drilled into the side wall in 3 places. The wall acts like one giant tunable port. Behind the wall I have acoustical products voicing that area.

e) As the tuning moves forward the platforms get put up on cones and blocks, but for now I'm listening for the effects of the tile and how I can make the port bring the necessary bass into the system, along with the type one cable.

f) The ceiling is popcorned and not smooth so I have 2 choices. One put a bunch of tuning goodies on the ceiling, two make the port create what the ceiling is doing wrong.

g) I have always found when hanging cable by a string that it takes on the character of what it is hanging from and the sound of the string/line itself.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:36 pm

Hi Guys

The 22 gauge type1 is starting to break in. Saturday is when the transformer was hard wired and after a little time I will start tuning the underneath.



This will mean that the 39 X 23 platform will have 3 tuned components, which I feel is just right or maybe even too small for those who wish to get even more bottom and mid bottom. Time is always the factor in these test. The question for me always is "if I don't let it settle how do I know?". I've gotten use to the settling process which kind of goes like this. At first clean and shifted up, next mellow but disembodied, then finally the real sound where you can here some of the full range settling in.

It's easy to be fooled by the middle part of settling and I feel this is where most probably get lost, confused and make irrational changes. At my place the repeat button is one of my most important tools. Back in my writing room I can tell when it is time to listen. It's when this bottom note floats down the hall. All of a sudden the hall sounds like liquid music and I know it is time to go listen. Yes, in an open area I can tell more about the sound of the system than sitting in the listening chair. And I might add half of the fun of listening for me is getting the sound to flow through the whole house and that wonderful sense that something special is going on in the next room or rooms away. I think this sets my systems apart from high end audio more than any other factor. It also speaks volumes for the harmonic balance of a system. For me, I want to listen while sitting, cooking, writing, bathing or even doing something outside. I like hearing something down the hall that makes me want to jump out of my writing seat and run down the hall to hear it.

When I do things in my system correctly I can hear when it is time to take the next step anywhere in my house. For example, I can hear that it will soon be time to take the next step in 22 gauge wire. If today I would not have heard the system drop into it's smooth harmonic flow I would have known that I either have to wait or back up in my tweaking. But the sound is full and flowing which tells me that it is safe to go from Type2 speaker cable to Type1 and hear what happens. Listen for brittle or dull! Your sound should have a full range flow to it that is not bright and brittle or dull and dampened. These sounds are sure signs of not moving on but backing up. Sometimes backing up and waiting. If your ever around me and my setups you will sometimes see me stop and just sit there as if I am trying to make up my mind. Everything to me is a sense of timing, a sense of settling, a sense of harmonic flow and energy. Change usually effects the fundamental and the first harmonic but these things in my experience are only the front end of the whole which is much more musically involved and expressive. When there is a change I don't listen for the now but the what will be. I find it very useful to go from a first harmonic listener to an open harmonic listener. It's like eating food at the right temperature. There is a window of taste where the ingredients are at their perfect essence. You could take the food out and eat it too soon but the difference is huge and the blend is effected.

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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:03 am


Hi Michael and Zonees

Embarassed looks like my system is less tuned than I hoped if the second stage of settling is "mellow but disembodied". In my notes Sonic has on tens of occasions recorded that the sound was "fat/too warm and unfocussed" and I immediately undid whatever was the last tune that led to this effect.....I did not persevere. Certainly not a good tunee as I thought.

A couple of questions about your system, Michael -- do you earth your system?

I remember you said that you prefer to electrically float your system instead of grounding/earthing it. Do you still practise this? What is the sound of a grounded system that makes you want to float it electrically?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:33 pm

Hi Sonic

I have been perceived as slow, very slow Laughing in my designing. The main reason is settling. The reason we hear muddy when settling is because our system is in the process of dropping to the lowest possible note it can make. Since this note is bigger than any other notes or frequencies it throws our system into a state of messy deliverance until the notes have a chance to develop harmonically. It's very common for us to stop shy of the bottom notes development. When we do this we almost always end up with a brittle sound or one that is shifted upward from natural.

This is another reason I have never really truly trusted reviewers reviews. They stop way short of letting a system settle before making their claims. They are in a constant state of change which never allows them to hear the bottom note.

I have also seen many use subs who actually do not need them. Our room/speaker/amp interaction is far more powerful than we give credit to. If our rooms go down there than most free resonant cabs will follow. We must learn to throw away specs when it comes to our rooms. Meaning, if a speaker (driver) is said to bottom out at 50Hz in a test chamber this has no relevance to what the driver will really drop to in a room that goes into the 20s. Let me give an example. Yikes listening room right now easily goes into the 20s. This is mainly do to the construction/shape of the room. When he plays the mini mods they follow the room down to the bottom note with the amp he is using. When we have used a slightly different configuration of system in there you can clearly hear the bottom note not being completed. Why?

Our systems are vibrating making machines, and everything in our system that lets those vibrations happen "in-tune" adds to the efficiency of our sound. As I have been saying for decades "there is no set formula for bringing out the most music other than opening up the full range and tuning it in". If people came over to my house right now and placed their finger on my amp circuit board they would feel the music playing through it. Whenever we do anything to filter these vibrations electronically or through dampening we are taking a big risk of loosing much of the music. At the same time when we apply tuning through transferring the mechanical part of the signal we find magic when the frequencies fall in alignment with each other harmonically.

Settling is a huge tuning tool because it ties itself to the lowest notes, and the lowest notes are the foundation or floor to all the notes above. When we have a more stable bottom our other notes have something to rest on that allows them to "float" or become stable themselves. A stable bottom is the difference between splashy open highs and a sudden here and gone hit without sustaining power. Sustaining power is what makes our soundstages expansive and lifelike.

Through this process we must always remind ourselves that vibration is not distortion. Vibration is energy. The big bottom waves have tons of it and can make or break all the other waves.

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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:46 pm

Hi Michael

And your views on earthing the system electrically and why you don't do it (if you don't that is)?

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:00 pm

Sonic.beaver wrote:
Hi Michael

And your views on earthing the system electrically and why you don't do it (if you don't that is)?

Sonic

I think what we should probably do is have a thread just for grounding and field tuning. For me it's not do or not do thing but more a "how much" thing.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:15 am

As the system becomes less the music becomes more.






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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:25 am

A huge jump in detail.



Close up of the maggie.





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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:51 am

Michael

Can you post a side view pix of your CD player so I can see more of what you did?

With the Magnavox transport free and unbolted, do you find it vibrating with some CDs and even giving off a purring noise? I have found this often with inexpensive players when their transports are loosened or removed from the player casing.

If you get these vibes, how do you fix it? I would like to top tune my Sony like this but I have got a couple of CDs that cause a vibration that I can even hear from nearby.

I've tried these same CDs in other inexpensive players like a Samsung and they cause a rattle too. On one really cheap No Brand player, the vibes were so bad the transport started walking when removed from its tin box! Ironically these same CDs are dead quiet when played on them giant 70 lb audiophile players that people pay $$$$$ for.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:24 pm


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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:59 am

Hey, Mr. Green,

At this rate, within a month you will have the player and receiver stripped down to sub-atomic particles, nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:02 pm

Hi Robert, no doubt Laughing

The system has been playing in settle mode for 5 days now and at this stage of tuning the listening cues have been quite the pleasure for me to experience.

This morning I got up to a sound that was wrapped around me. Surprising since I thought I was going to need to do a lot with the acoustics in my room to achieve this. The type1 Picasso and Power wire (22gauge) must be liking the system and the old burnt in parts must be excepting the newer cable. I can almost feel the circuit board relaxing on the Pioneer with it's stand offs. I'll be applying standoffs to the Maggie soon but will miss this sound while waiting for the next level to reveal itself. I feel pretty confident that I can hard wire any remaining jumper wires on the system with Picasso and get huge benefits.

more pics of the current maggie setup


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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:48 pm

The maggie

You know there has always been something about the Magnazox player that has drawn me to it. It possess something that I have not heard from any other source up till now. Putting my finger on it has been a mystery but this last move has told me tons about the unit. The maggie has an ability to produce a full range reality that other digital front ends only do in part. I know that many will look at it and say the DAC is not up to speed compared to the latest greatest, and this may be true, but the execution of what "is" there is done in such a way that it spills music all over my system. I have a feeling that once I make the standoffs for both the main and chip circuit boards I will be lifted to a world of float.

For myself I must base my judgments on what I hear as a full range music producer and not a numbers possibility. Is tuning removing a ton of jitter that the numbers are suppose to remove? Is jitter do to more of a mechanical thing than what engineers are thinking? Is jitter even the correct word?

I have many times tested audiophile grade products against mass produced products only to be disappointed by what I heard by the audiophile pieces. In my thinking it must come down to over doing something in the mechanical end of things. I am always up for improvements, and hope that the chase people are on the improve signal can be done in a way that keeps mechanics in mind as I have found this area to be the biggest sonic factor in any system. In the meantime hearing the sound turn into real through opening up the signal makes this listener a happy camper.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:25 am

It looks like the Magnavox transport is just sitting on the platform underneath it. Is this true? I've been having trouble with the Magnavox getting tipped up in the frequency response and was thinking of fastening the transport to a good, solid 3/4" piece of tuned pine. Would stabilizing the transport this way help to bring out the bass, or is my thinking completely off base?
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:20 am

Hi Bill

Have you taken the maggie apart yet?

Yes right now I do have it sitting on the platform direct.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:02 pm

Hi Michael,

No, I haven't taken the Magnavox apart yet. I've been pretty busy with remodelling in the basement the last few weeks, but I might be able to attempt it this weekend. Anything I should keep in mind?
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:11 pm

OK, I pulled the Magnavox apart last night. I don't have a nice L shaped piece of wood for the circuit board, so everything is just sitting on the same tuning board that I had it on before. I also soldered in some nice 22 gauge wires to replace the stock power wires.

I'm definitely hearing a new level of clarity and low-level detail. A solid step forward. That being said, I don't think it fixed anything else that had been bothering me about the source or the system. The tonal balance seems fairly good, although I would still like to hear more warmth and richness. And I still don't think it's as musically involving as it should be. I hope that can be improved through better tuning.
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:02 am


Hi Bill333 and Michael

Sorry to ask this question again that Sonic hasn't got an answer on -- do you have transport vibration problems with some of your CDs when the transport is removed from its case and sits (not mounted) on a shelf?

Point is I have experienced this on more than one make of inexpensive DVD player.

It goes like this: when mounted in the case there are no vibrations, the player is dead quiet. Even when the screws are cracked it is OK. But once separated from the case, the fun begins. Most CDs are OK or exhibit a slight vibration, on a few it is so bad I can hear the vibration across the room and with some CDs, the transport actually starts moving....

What's your experience? I am sure these vibrations, even the smallest that can be hardly felt, will affect the laser tracking and call for error correction and modulation of the power supply that affects the sound for the worse.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:23 am

Hi Sonic,

In actual fact, removing the case seems to have solved nearly all the vibration problems I'd been having with the player. It used to get a wobble sometimes, but that hasn't happened since I took it out of the case. Of course, all bets are off if I try to use the CD mat or put a top tuning rod on the reading arm. The mechanism isn't mounted to the wood platform I'm using, just sitting on its 4 little plastic 'points'.
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:23 am


Hi Bill333

Funny....my experience with three different players has been somewhat opposite -- Philips, Samsung and my present Sony Blu ray -- remove the transport and the vibrations from the "nasty CD" list is something to behold. On other CDs, some are OK others have a touch more vibrations. So the overall results is a worsening.

Sonic no can figure this one out... Question
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:14 pm

Hi Guys

Sorry for delays. Once again my little tweak operation needed my attention and it has taken longer than I thought. Bob has done a slamming good job of getting the outdoor area expanded. This doubles my space for curing and allows for tooling to be put in stations. As you guys know the latest sound we have been hearing is do to the climate. Nevada curing has become my favorite and has continued my own personal learning of vibration and harmonic control. As Bob and I were looking at the space we decided to go ahead and jump in and make a larger area. We didn't count on the seasons heaviest winds to come along during the construction but it actually worked out great cause we were able to see first hand how to make this place so that there is a nice breeze without being too strong coming through the workspace. I'm looking forward to the new benches being put in and the Nevada 60's to be built.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:22 pm

Sonic.beaver wrote:

Hi Bill333

Funny....my experience with three different players has been somewhat opposite -- Philips, Samsung and my present Sony Blu ray -- remove the transport and the vibrations from the "nasty CD" list is something to behold. On other CDs, some are OK others have a touch more vibrations. So the overall results is a worsening.

Sonic no can figure this one out... Question

Hi Sonic

One thing about the maggie is that it is built with a slightly different cross piece on the upper side. When this is sitting stable it doesn't make much noise. For my setup I'm making 4 holes for the transport post to fit in so even the movement when opening and closing the door doesn't bother the other parts as much. I will also make this in a tuning board version for those who wish to go down that path. For myself though even if it were noisy it would be well worth putting up with as compared to closed in sound of having it in the chassis.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:58 am

Same system smaller room.

After learning what I needed from the front room it is time to move on to the unexplored room of the house. I've had systems set up everywhere but the writing room. Well I had a basic TV system hooked up but it has been floating around in my mind that there might be something here worth listening to. I also need a room right now that I can let settle and the front room is so open that the traffic of tools and wood coming in and out is becoming a hassle. It's also good to have this set up because I'm starting to make my toys for different amps and I need to be able to wrap my mind around each little change and I feel like the openness of the big room is keeping me at a place where I'm making changes to all the acoustical space a little too much as I evaluate.


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