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yikes

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:43 pm

I did not get in any listening at Michael's yesterday. I was sick, luckily not a head cold and I am going to try to make it over there today.
Hey sonic, yes he did remove the ac outlet cover in that entire space to free up that tension, the room I am pretty sure is 11' , as for the windows, there is no treatment applied directly to the windows. The approach of treating the entire listening space just works, and those windows do not affect the room nearly as much as you would think by looking at it.

One thing we have played with is tension on the windows. Small wood slivers, taking the screen out, things like that. Every time I start to listen in that room I look at those windows and think about it, once the music starts playing I forget all about them. They don't exist.
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:11 pm


Hi Yikes

Every outlet loosened and hangin' out even if they weren't connected to the audio or used....the only outlet that hangs out in my system is the one feeding the hifi. The rest have their screws cracked. Must try this....

My window panes are untuned. They sit behind the wood blinds so this lessens any effect from the glass. Maybe Space Cones on the windows.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:55 am

Hey Sonic,

Yep, every outlet. We did this in my room last night, one by one, and my room has a grounding issue so, we all have ... Well I'll just say we saw some, it was painful, ok. We are nuts!

The sound just kept opening, the instruments separating, decay time coming true, sound stage wider, deeper, layers of sound. One by one.
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:21 am

That's right, set those outlets free. Any bend or kink or material mingling in your system is causing a huge effect.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:25 am

Hopefully we will get up pics of the long awaited minimods for you guys to take looks at this weekend. As you know I am slowly revising the speaker line up as there has not been any speaker products out there for a while that has tempted the listeners ears. I've seen people picking up used pairs of my designs with great results but having a new line is overdue.

The Mini Mod has been updated to a 6.5" woofer and I am going to go with the 3.5" paper tweeter or silk dome depending on where you live humidity wise. If you look at Yikes thread you will see the smaller tweeter version, but I have bumped this popular tweet for the fuller range one.

Audio geeks don't want to look at this speaker as it defies all the laws of the handbook.

no internal dampening
.25" thick baffle board
spring clip speaker terminals
crossover less
super low mass

Music lovers want to look at this as these are instruments.

.25" poplar baffle boards with 6 coats of instrument grade finish
free resonant cabinet
internal 3 coats of finish
internal voiced tuning rod
brass tuning bolts with poplar washers
low mass speaker terminals
6.5" light weight poly woofers, rubber surrounds
3.5" paper tweeters (option silk dome)
Bare Essence Speaker wire
crossover-less design (one part)

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:49 am



Enjoy the mini mod I do.

Right at the moment though I've been taking advantage of folks transferring their cds to computer and selling me their collections. Believe me the pleasure is all mine. I've set up the 60s as my, far field test the cd, system. Interesting listening to the dynamic range change from one cd to the next. Holy cow Batman! It reminds me of why so many get lost in their tuning. The signatures on cds vary so much I can't imagine not having the ability to tune in a piece of music.

Are people really serious thinking they can have a system that plays it all? Good luck with that one. Laughing I will never understand why someone would not want to tune it in, but instead choose to judge a recording and put it back on the shelf. I'm making mental notes every time I check one of these cds I picked up out. It kind of is like which ones will I play together in a night of listening. Certain signatures lock into my mind as tuning themes or variety themes. This is much different than when I am only tuning one particular cd or even song or sound in. As you guys know each cd is a new exciting adventure and for me having the ability to know I can come back to a piece of music and take it where I want to go is the coolest part. I am in no way at the mercy of a fixed system. I can create new worlds of size shape and content. Knowing that there will always be more music on the cd than I can retrieve is stimulating. even while I'm back in my writing room is fun because of the way I have set it up for my basic reviewing of the new music I got.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:08 am

This last week has been an exciting one for me as I have had fun watching you guys tune. Also previewing over 400 new cds has kept the ears busy. However the fun must end as I have a client coming into town and I'm feeling like I want to turn one of my systems around to make a cool listening demo for them. Ok, I meant to say "the fun begins".

You see my SAM Wall has been getting a work out since I have had it now in 3 different configurations in my 28' long space. I know about the time I get this place figured out I will be moving to another spot with more rooms to accommodate the bigger jobs and more demos, but I'm not done squeezing the tune out of this place yet. You guys are so lucky that you have homes that you have been in forever. For myself over the last 12 years I feel like more of a M.A.S.H. unit. Than again learning different spaces is what it is about for me. I will know in a month or so if my current place can handle the size load and new business plan. In the meantime it's hit settle move, hit settle move at my place.

My most recent tweaked setups have made these crazy adventures easy by doing a few consistent steps that allow the signal path to find itself in quick fashion. After working with the multiple component PC system it is a pleasure to get back to 2 pieces. Kind of exciting seeing Bill333, Yikes, Andy, Robert and myself playing with the same simple components. What I have done with this system to get it to open up quickly is,

1) place the speakers and equipment in a configuration so that the wires from the amp to the speakers don't touch anything but the terminals

2) configure the interconnects so they only touch the RCA jacks

3) configure the power cords so they touch as few grounds as possible (if this were a permanent setting the cords would be cut to length)

4) make sure that all the ties in the pioneer are cut and the wires are set free not touching each other or having kinks in them (don't forget the one under the transformer)

5) make sure that the wall outlets are pulled all the way out of the wall with no kinks in them

Even though the pioneer is not totally stripped down to the raw circuit board (one of them will be) this is enough to set the system pretty free, and settling seems to go a little faster, not fast, but faster.

This last little while of doing this has again reminded me of how different each recording really is. This makes me think "do some want a system that will sound just OK with everything"? I don't know the answer for the many but for me I enjoy hearing the huge differences. I doubt if anyone can call me an audiophile wimp (except for those who go further than me till I catch up :Lil: ) but for me I'd rather hear something closer to the "real" than something obviously removed too far from reality. Having more than one system helps me deal but I'm not too crazy about not being in a music envelope. Even tweaking my far field setup last week so that it gave me an envelope was satisfying to a point. It was kind of fun hearing some recordings jump out into a stage and others sink like the Titanic, but thinking that this could be a long term thing gives me the shutters. No thanks, I need something more than the audiophile norm. If I want fake I'll watch the presidential debates (did I say that?). No, what makes this hobby great for me as a listener is hearing it how it is and knowing that I can take it any where I wish. Yesterday it gave me chills (in a good way) to hear sonic describe the drums. Who else besides us has this privilege and respect of the music? Most toss things to the side calling them bad, but not us. We can and do see the reality of the performance not as only a spectator. We give a piece of music permission to be itself, examining it as a work of art.

Another tip for those who have open spaces. If I'm in a place that opens up into other areas I like using those areas like ports. Not only does this help (make) the over all, but it also makes for great listening if you are in another part of the house. It's easy to think that your immediate space is the system, it's not. Every where you have space it has a huge effect on your systems sound. I'm constantly finding things many feet away from my setups that have dramatic effects on the sound. I find hidden treasures all over the place.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:16 am

Hi Michael,

Who are you going to get to strip the Pioneer all the way down to the circuit board? I've been wanting to do exactly that. Are you planning to do it yourself? I'm definitely very interested in this.
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:05 am

Hi Bill

A good question and a timely one. Recently I've been enjoying the sound of old parts. I've been listening to 2 receivers 1) pioneer 3400 2) technics SA 5360. The older burnt in parts have a musical character that is very hard to duplicate by the newer amps I have been listening to. It gets me thinking Idea if I treated the newer products like I do the older ones would they compete? Meaning changing the way the parts are put on the circuit board, changing the type of board and spreading the parts like the old days OR could it be that the burn in itself is the magic Question Have we not given enough credit to burn in and are finding out that 30 year old + components have a magic that only time can produce? Do modern parts sound as good?

I'm thinking that the answers are somewhere in between and until I or someone unlocks this door (I have some ideas Idea ) we need to gather and treat these treasures with much respect.

Question how far do I strip these down

Question do I change over all the wire to Bare Essence

Question do I hard wire the Picasso

Question do I make custom tuning boards for them to sit on

Sadly I must say goodbye to my tuner as it will no longer tune by dial after my demolition so I will have one 3400 made to keep the tuner and one for strictly the amp. The Demo Begins :afraid:

OK, so I already started but I wanted to be dramatic Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:01 pm

pioneer 3400

Most of you have already taken the side and top panels off, removed the bottom and feet, clipped the wire restraints, freed the wires not to touch each other, removed the A/C restraint and are ready for the next step.

Time to take the face plate off. A couple screws on top, a couple nob control nuts and the face plate is gone. You hear some difference right? Well loosen the brass screws on the front panel and hear the 3400 open up big!

At this point for me is when the 3400 becomes a high end piece of audio gear. Assuming you don't have blockage in your system you should be getting a nice flow to the notes and the bass should be fairly tight and the 3400 starting to sound bigger than a 15 watter.

Just so you know for my testing I have removed the front acoustical tuning devices so I can hear the stage fill in without help from me using the front pressure zone. I do have my CornerTunes and EchoTunes still in place. I like doing this so that I can watch the signal open up. I also don't have my speaker, interconnect or electric wires touching anything including the ground. I want my testing to be without as much influencing from the other parts as I can.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:45 am

Quote :
Time to take the face plate off. A couple screws on top, a couple nob control nuts and the face plate is gone. You hear some difference right? Well loosen the brass screws on the front panel and hear the 3400 open up big!

This is great! Please keep us posted on what you're doing and hearing.
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:46 am

The Pioneer,

is a wonderful project. Everything is so easy as if they knew we were going to tune it. The front panel screws are fun to play with for those who want to stop, but you shouldn't be afraid to keep going. It's one of those units that seems to keep it's balance while shedding weight. And speaking of shedding weight go ahead and un-do the tuner. When you take out the screws holding the tuning panel you won't hear a big difference untill you take off the tuner cable and take out the tuning nob. See how heavy it is? Also hear how the highs just smoothed out?

At this stage it's fun to top tune but there is a ways to go for those who want to hear the 3400 open up more. Make sure your power is off and the unit is unplugged. Snip the tuning indicator wire and remove it. Also remove the blue reception indicator and snip it. When snipping things don't snip them at the same length so the ends aren't able to touch each other and short out. I snip mine close to the board. This wires that power light bulbs and such will play with the signal so your unit will be much cleaner without them. OK, gone? See how much easier it is the organize the runs for your other wires? For myself I try to listen at every step so I can learn what effects what. Keep in mind that every wire has a field around it so as you move wires you will hear that you can shape the sound. If you don't hear a change right away don't worry you will after it starts to settle.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:08 am

Hi Michael,

Would it be possible to get a picture with arrows on it pointing to the wires and devices that you're talking about? I'm not entirely sure where some of the things you're referring to are.
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:52 pm

I'll see if I can get Sean to swing by and take some.

Had a great listening session last night and this morning. The 3400 is really opening up and it has made it easy to find more hidden treasures acoustically at my place. With my acoustical space being so open every little thing sticks out like a major event (I love it). I have to watch when I move dishes around or any little movement. Keep in mind I have up a tuning wall and there is the hall, dining area and kitchen behind me the way I have everything setup right now. This morning I was making frames for my PZCs out of redwood. I got into it and took off my shirt cause the dust was flying out in the work area. I laid the shirt on top of 2 areoplanes that I had configured roughly in the dining area. Well, I came in to have a listening break and the bass response had increased dramatically. I search all over my place to see what was up. Did I move something or did the system break in with the latest changes or what? Finally (thinking I'll figure it out later) I decided to go do something outside, put my shirt on, went out and did my thing. I came back in for another jam, and the bass was back to so so. Of course I started laughing as I ended up making a little areoplane/tunestrip combo where I had my shirt laying over the planes. If you guys saw my dining room now you would say "what? this isn't in the manual Laughing . Oh I have to laugh at the cookie cutter world.

After all these years tuning fascinates me as much as it did when I first found the magic. Every inch of every part of ours systems is a ton of energy waiting to be tuned in.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:49 am

Another day of listening about to begin. From the writing room things sound great. The one thing I have always noticed about the pioneer is it's ability to play music outside of the immediate listening area. Most music units have a tendency to thin out outside of the zone but the pioneer does the opposite. The 3400 makes the whole house come to life when it plays. It makes me think of the days when we all use to sit around and listen to music as a pass time.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:38 pm

While the Pioneer burns in some new cable thought I would show you guys where it is at before the next step.


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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:06 pm

Hi Guys

Also wanted to give a room update. While playing with the Pioneer I decided to make a wall behind my Tunable Wall. Listening was done during the wall construction and because of the weird shape of the open area a vented wall was put in instead of a solid wall.


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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:51 pm

Hey, Mr. Green,

When I got the Pioneer, I took the top and the feet off. Recently, I took the sides off. I need to get some better wire clippers before I go trying to clip off the wire ties. I may take the bottom plate off, but I don't think I will go any further. I'm still the skittish one about mucking something up, especially with such a rare unit.

Anyhoo, regarding keeping cables from touching ANYTHING, how rigid are your cables? A few weeks back, I had the thought to pull the positive and negative leads apart from each other on my tiny gauge speaker cables, thinking this would allow more freedom for them to vibrate. However, whatever rigidity they had is completely gone and they would need a bunch of cable grounds as is.

Your current pic shows you have the leads twisted together. Is this for sonic purposes as well as a certain amount of rigidity in order to keep them suspended in air from one component to another?

Robert
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:30 pm

Hi Robert

BTW, email me your shipping address again. I try to make my system so that nothing touches. The Picasso is stiff which makes this a good thing but in the long run once placement is found having wires and cable made to fit is the best.

here's my simple system layout



I really like this setup because it's easy to hear when I add mass to any part or piece. This makes it great for voicing.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:03 pm

The Pioneer is no longer a Pioneer. Transformer is out and the sides are gone. Immediately I started thinking tuning poles. So, I'm off to pick out some premium wood that I can use to voice and insert. I can now see where this is going. A hard wired lean & mean circuit board.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:10 pm

The pioneer stripped down, not cleaned yet Laughing but stripped down.



This move gave more openness and the bottom is more musical.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:36 pm

Floating the wires. Type 1 power cables, Type 2 speaker cable, Type 1 Picasso.



Note: Board is floating on crosscut Douglas Fir.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:08 pm

Hi Guys

I wanted to show you my double walled system. The room is setup very basic to let the stripping down of the components to be without a bunch of tweaks at first, but you can see how I voiced the back of the room with a Tuning wall (prototype looking) and the ported tunable wall behind it. I did this to give me neutrality.


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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:05 am

How are you liking the Type 1 Picasso? It's certainly a very different looking cable from the standard twisted multistrand Picasso interconnect.
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:35 pm


Hi Michael

Fascinating stuff you have done! Sonic got a few questions:

a. You are running the Pioneer and the Magnavox from two different mains outlets -- why? Won't it be better to run them from one wall outlet via a connector strip?

b. The mains cable feeding your Pioneer runs nearly the whole length in contact with the floor. Is there are reason why you have not raised this mains cable on Cable Grounds?

c. Elaborate on what you mean that the "board is floating on crosscut Douglas Fir" -- are you referring to the Pioneer circuit board (which appears to be the case), then what is under the wooden boards supporting the Pioneer and Magnavox? Do you use AAB1x1 cones or some wood?

d. What is that black strip running down the edge of the ported tunable wall?

e. What is under the platforms supporting the loudspeakers and the Magnavox and Pioneer? How to the platforms interface and ground to the floor? Are there cones? From the pictures, it just looks like they are wooden crates sitting on the floor.

f. Do you tune your ceiling?

Sonic
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