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PostSubject: TuneLand Vegas   Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:47 pm

The new TuneLand Vegas is coming along well, but unfortunately we won't have the internet up and running for a couple more days. Sorry for the delay and thanks for your patience!
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:35 am

HELLO TUNELAND Exclamation

Feels like an eternity since the 15th of January bounce

My life has always been full of it's share of adventure, and this last month has certainly gained it's place in one of my life's chapters. To give the "very" short version here is a quick drawing of TuneLand Vegas (Padre Bay).


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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:32 pm

Cool!  I want to come!  Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:55 am

For sure Exclamation

Will be a fun place for Tunees to play.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:43 am

Hello Tunees

I've been having fun getting the wood room up, while waiting on the workers to get the carpet scheduled and other odds and ends.

Several have asked about the systems' layouts so here's a peek.



I'll start curing tuning boards for the Tunable Room but I'm looking forward to listening to the collective wood gathering of the last place all thrown together. As you guys know I love listening puzzles (I know weird right). Somethings about always pushing the listening learning curve.

Now, speaking of curves. If you've been to MGA SUNY Studio One, you'll remember I designed the live room like a concert shell (lower at one end and raised at the other). Well, the Padre Bay location has a unique design where the room layouts are vaulted (with the exception of the tunable room of course. Each room the walls start at 8' and end up at 11' or the opposite depending on configuration. The Tunable room I'm leaving square and of course will be my main reference and designing area. Rm-6 is 10' 6" x 10' 2" x 7' 11" (tall). The drawing your looking at is not to scale, so I will have to give the dimensions later.

here's an example though

The room hosting systems 1 & 2 is 12' x 26', if you measure to the green line, but this is a little deceptive. This area opens up to a cathedral hall and the kitchen space (which we are using for display and storage). I haven't measured the open hall area but I'm guessing 50 plus feet in all.

It's not a big house, but the ceilings definitely add a feeling of space and volume. Plus adding the Tunable Room at the end of the hall is a bonus to the attraction.

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PostSubject: the writing room   Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:02 am

The writing room "Rm-5" is another cool space. I'll do pics after the work is done, but in a nutshell it's your typical US master suite.




Again not to scale. The writing area is about 12' x 13' with my chair on the 11' (height) wall. It really does have that mini concert hall feel.

A couple of things I'm doing different in here are, one, my speakers will be wall mounted to the side walls on Brazilian Pine planks. And two, I've changed over to an air mattress for sleeping. I now have the choice of putting it away or adjusting the pressure to somewhat match the rooms pressure. I have the feeling with the mattress and open space I'm in for some fun.

SO, count em Very Happy 6 listening areas. Not including the outside system and work station.

Cool gotta where shades Exclamation

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:21 am

Hi Guys

New carpet and TR electric went in yesterday, so last night was the first official system listening. Well I say listening but should really just say "hooking up" a couple of the systems.

for those who haven't seen the front view



team that pic with the diagram and hopefully you'll get the idea


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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:09 am


Hi Michael

Looks good.

I see the garage door in the picture and cannot figure where that view is in relation to the floor plan. Sonic sees "Entrance" on the floor plan but that's not a garage door.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:11 am

Hi Sonic

Maybe this will help



also, the carpet has been replaced with a slate gray color

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:06 am

While Harold is in town we thought it might be good to squeeze in a quick video with him and Saturn.



So down came the systems and up went more of a studio setting. Thought you guys might enjoy a peek Shocked

Backing away a bit (excuse the ugly B-Stock RT Pillows) here's the view looking in today from the hallway with the doorway of my writing room to the right.


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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:02 am


Michael, could you explain the purpose and results of that curious doorframe Tune?

Is there a door there or that just a portal?

What do those three RT pillows do? Why are they placed at the heights they are? Iis the rattan stool/mini-table part of the Tune?

Doesn't all this stuff especially the stool inhibit your ingress and egress from the room through that door/portal?

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:51 am

Hi Sonic

That setup was for the video shoot only. They came down after the shoot was over. What I did was create an audio sweet spot for the computer mic to pickup their voices better.

The rattan stool is where I sat during the shoot. The picture is a little deceiving as the hall is bigger than the picture would suggest.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:44 am

A day of blissful sanding was the agenda yesterday.

I want to start off the new place with lots of great sounding Brazilian Pine. Even thinking about instead of so much Music Ply this time around for the Tunable Room main panels, I might use Brazilian Pine whole planks.

meaning

The shell is your standard Music Ply shell, then adding another tunable layer. The internal walls would be 12" individual voiced and tunable planks attached to Low Tone Redwood framing. Since I live in the land of super curing and my 1"x12"x4' planks go so full range in tone this might turn out to be something pretty special Very Happy

here's my listening now



don't forget to follow me on facebook for quicky listening updates Cool

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:06 am

Inching my way toward fun setups, today I did a little work on the Tunable Room's shell.

One of the issues rolling around in my brain was "how do I tie all these different parts and pieces from different rooms, and voicing from the old place, and make them work in harmony in the new place"? Keep in mind the shell is made up of 3 different room's wood plus their particular voicing.

Doesn't really bother me cause as I have been saying this is the shell to the inner room. BUT, I will be listening in here as I move through the inner construction and voicing of each piece of wood (hash tag fascinating) on the inside.

:shock:amazingly "I'm such a student still scratch "

I went in today to even out the sanding and was in awe how the sanding alone started to meld the tone of the room. It was like the pressure zones that were in conflict to a degree started to tune up and you could hear the zones beginning to work together as if the room was built from the same fiber. After a little way done with my voicing I sat there and laughed a while and said WOW a lot. I dove back in and with two different grits and types I voiced up this room remarkably well for what I had to work with. The room is talking to me and I am listening now to what it is saying about this piece and that.

Can it be that I am in the SW and maybe the wood gels easier than other parts of the world. Or, is it that I am so use to voicing now that my mind knows instinctively what to do? I'm not sure I need to know the answer, but I do know, how enjoyable it is to be inside of a tunable room and actually start to make it talk. A different experience than any other in this hobby for me.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:38 am

I'm enjoying my writing room system tonight.



Got it hooked up a couple of hours ago and the parts are just now starting to warm up nicely.

That's the Technics SA-5270 playing. So far this house, with it's concert hall shell shaped rooms, have been pretty special sounding.

In this room I have the speakers mounted on the front wall in the upper corners about 7' high. Here's a side view.


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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:43 am

Thank you MG Exclamation


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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:25 pm

Your welcome Tim

OK, so I have a ton to get caught up on. Plus we have show orders to fill, so lets see how far I get before the phone rings  Laughing

the SAM wall in my room 



AXPONA 2017. Oh man barely getting started on responses.



and the sweet smell of production. welcome Dave to the Tune Family


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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Mon May 01, 2017 3:16 am

I can hardly wait. You guys know how long I've been waiting for the new speakers to get into production. We've made and sold some great ones along the way and are glad folks are happy but to be this close to real production runs on the hardwood designs has been a labor of love that is almost here.



More than likely here is the last picture of the MGA LOW prototype before production.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Wed May 03, 2017 8:24 am

And now, are you ready Question



Finally right Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Wed May 03, 2017 9:39 am


Questions on the MGA Low Loudspeakers


Congratulations on the new MGA Lows. Some questions from Sonic:

a. Why are they called "Low"?


b. I know you will say this is room dependent, but how low can they really go? Will they out-bass my
Magneplanar MG1.5Q/Rs?


c. How big is the woofer? How can it go low when conventional physics tells us we need 12", 15" woofers for big bass? The idea being you need pistonic area to move air for bass!


d. What's the efficiency of the MGA Low? What's the impedance, what are impedance maximum and minimums, at what frequencies?


e. What is the approximate crossover point?



f. How many tuning bolts are there?



g. Will they work in large rooms -- what about rooms like Sonic's listening room which measures 21 ft x 14 ft x 10 ft or larger? I have tried mini monitors of several makes in this room and the sound is small, not room filling no matter how much power I throw at them. Large box speakers like certain British monitors and the Magneplanars fill this room nicely though. Is there a room
size limit for the MGA Lows?


h. Does MGA supply stands for the MGA Lows? How high are they?



i. What material is the woofer surround?



j. If Sonic with my semi-tuned room or someone with a totally untuned room buys MGA Lows, will they have to start tuning or can they be used with no additional room tuning and still be satisfactory?


k. Can the MGA Lows be used in room placements other than Near-Field? If domestic conditions demand can they work far field, near a wall or in corners?


Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Thu May 04, 2017 7:16 pm

Questions on the MGA Low Loudspeakers


Congratulations on the new MGA Lows.  Some questions from Sonic:

a.       Why are they called "Low"?

mg


A tribute to my friend David Bowie, this is named after David's recording, LOW. This was the period when David was in his search for spiritual sanity along with many of us who were working the "Berlin Trilogy" coinciding with other projects by several artists, in both gospel and rock.

b.       I know you will say this is room dependent, but how low can they really go? Will they out-bass my
Magneplanar MG1.5Q/Rs?

mg
I'm not sure another answer is possible. Here's what I have found in my listening zones. In a bass shy pressure area the LOW performed around 65-70 Hz, in a somewhat nominal area the LOW's reached down to around the 50-55Hz range with a nice kick on bass and drums. And in a fairly well tuned area the bottom end was recording dependent but there are upper 30's and lower 40Hz that take place. I would rate with great conditions to be around 40-45Hz with an occasional dip into the upper 30's.

Magneplanar vs LOW on the bottom would have to be an answer that could only be determined by the users tuning skills. The LOW is obviously a more flexible speaker design than the 1.5s.

c.       How big is the woofer?  How can it go low when conventional physics tells us we need 12", 15" woofers for big bass? The idea being you need pistonic area to move air for bass!

mg
The woofer is 6.5". The MGA 6.5-4-35W is a very low mass woofer weighing only 1.7Lb. The 1.7Lb is very important in the how this driver can go low. The conventional question should be a different question than the size, because of the physics involved.

d.       What's the efficiency of the MGA Low? What's the impedance, what are impedance maximum and minimums, at what frequencies?

mg
The LOW is designed to be room dependent (free resonant), which means the efficiency mimics the room's natural efficiency, much like any acoustical instrument. 4-6 ohm, with variables dependent on amp performance. All audio measurements and ratings should be viewed on a moving scale.

e.       What is the approximate crossover point?

I only use a 3.3 cap in the LOW between the woofer and ribbon. Because there is no dampening on this part or wires, and because the cabinet is mechanically free resonant the crossover is extremely extended and smooth. The transition happens between 3000-5500 without any beam. The sound between crossover and crossover-less is dramatic.

f.         How many tuning bolts are there?

None. The LOW is designed to be fully free resonant without squares. It's internal and external shape curves the response of the pressure build up. The LOW literally takes on the appearance of the rooms natural response. I use brass tuning screws on the tweeter frame and treated metal screws on the woofer to make the adjustments. I highly recommend using the LOW Stands and Platforms.

g.        Will they work in large rooms -- what about rooms like Sonic's listening room which measures 21 ft x 14 ft x 10 ft or larger?  I have tried mini monitors of several makes in this room and the sound is small, not room filling no matter how much power I throw at them. Large box speakers like certain British monitors and the Magneplanars fill this room nicely though.  Is there a room
size limit for the MGA Lows?

mg
The largest room I am using them in is an open area with approximately twice the size of your space with 11' ceiling peaks.


h.       Does MGA supply stands for the MGA Lows?  How high are they?

mg
Yes, the LOW has it's own stand and platforms. The Stands are designed in such a way that the end user can interchange the transfer posts to accommodate different heights.

i.       What material is the woofer surround?

mg
Cone Poly (low mass)
Surround Rubber
Voice Coil Wire Copper
Voice Coil Aluminum
Basket / Frame Steel (low mass and treated)
Magnet Ferrite (treated backs)


j.       If Sonic with my semi-tuned room or someone with a totally untuned room buys MGA Lows, will they have to start tuning or can they be used with no additional room tuning and still be satisfactory?

mg
I set these up in both treated and non-treated rooms here at TuneLand. The LOW has a very high non-needing to tweak factor. Frankly it's one of the reasons I designed them. However I didn't know they were going to do as well as they do in almost any condition.


k.     Can the MGA Lows be used in room placements other than Near-Field?  If domestic conditions demand can they work far field, near a wall or in corners?

mg
Again it's surprising how much the shape and resonance of the LOW is able to be such a chameleon. They have a build balance to them that is uncommon among speakers. They really are like acoustical instruments, even the feel of them.


Sonic

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Fri May 05, 2017 5:17 am

Tonight's listening starts with


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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Fri May 05, 2017 5:43 am

back to a Sonic question

c.       How big is the woofer?  How can it go low when conventional physics tells us we need 12", 15" woofers for big bass? The idea being you need pistonic area to move air for bass!

mg

Air is a wave conduit not the sound wave itself. Sound moves through air. It does whether the air is at low or much motion.

Lets talk about the main speakers and the mains plus subs.

There's a few things that need to be understood about bass as it relates to loudspeakers and rooms. To do this you need to look at different speaker designs and room responses. Because of physics the room is the speaker, therefore it's the room's surfaces that need to be counted as the vibrating sound source. Outside with no walls is a different science than inside with walls. When you move sound inside the science becomes pressure zones caused by the speakers stimulating the surfaces in the room. Some speakers do however respond more directly between the drivers and seating because of the room's specific character in regards to pressure build up or let down and a speakers inability to resonate. Best case listening scenario is when the room is so intune with the speakers and ears that the speakers only need to barely drive the room and the room naturally fills with well balanced zones we call pressure zones. Some rooms do this without effort, but are rare finds. In these rooms the pressure is so efficient a driver that is 6.5" can easily play in ranges of 30Hz. Most rooms allow 6.5" woofers to range between 45-70Hz on the low end. This is cabinet design dependent and is one reason why most monitors and mini monitors bottom out between 60-80Hz (sometimes higher). A free resonant design goes far lower than a dead cabinet, if the room support is there.

so Michael, aren't you just defending your 6.5" woofer?

The answer is yes, and if I had an 8" woofer designed like this 6.5" I would be bragging on it. But we brought in many 8" woofers thinking we were going to have the 6.5" as an entry level, only to watch the MGA 6.5-4-35W step on their sound.

now lets go back to "12", 15" woofers for big bass"

I would include 10", 12", 15" and 18" in on the picture. In most cases a good woofer in the sizes mention will produce wonderful bass and a few other benefits. In most listening rooms that do not have great pressure balance, enough to respond and allow a 6.5" or 8" to dip down, that same room may have the perfect place to set a bigger woofer and gain not only lower notes but also fill out the harmonics for the 6.5".

got to take a break but will be back on this topic

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Fri May 05, 2017 9:13 am


Fascinating Exclamation
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Fri May 05, 2017 10:14 pm

"now lets go back to "12", 15" woofers for big bass"

I would include 10", 12", 15" and 18" in on the picture. In most cases a good woofer in the sizes mention will produce wonderful bass and a few other benefits. In most listening rooms that do not have great pressure balance, enough to respond and allow a 6.5" or 8" to dip down, that same room may have the perfect place to set a bigger woofer and gain not only lower notes but also fill out the harmonics for the 6.5"."

by the way here's what I'm listening to



There are rooms that are natural bass amplifiers (I say this in a positive sense) , but most rooms have a bass placement issue around between 20-120Hz. This has always been an issue for the audiophile because many listeners and designers build their hobby on the assumption that you have Floor Standing speakers as the ultimate, then Bigger Bookshelf, Bookshelf then Mini Monitors. The Subwoofer is looked at as a fix to the inadequacy of the main speakers. This is another one of those guilt trips that has no place in the hobby of listening and is one of the reasons you readers see me speak more in empirically tested methods rather than theory. Theory is based what might happen and empirical methods are based on what is happening.

If you look at speaker placement as a science typically there are certain parts of each room that have a + and - value to them that determine the gain of the 20-120Hz range that very often is a different placement that is best for soundstaging above those frequencies or more important notes. You have 3 functions that take place that all are outside of audiophile home testing.

1) the environment and physical parameters
2) the speaker construction
3) the wave/pressure alignment

Depending on the construction and environmental placement of any room there is usually a disconnect between what speakers were meant to do inside of their native factory vs the conditions of the listeners area in another location. The differences between the two spaces can be enough to cause a loss of information (blockage) of more than 3/4 of any given recording. The alignment of frequencies at the speaker placement can easily be completely off from the actual audio code of the source. The bigger the notes the more this disconnect can be. It can also be very confusing for the listener that may put on one recording and it sounds fine and the very next one sounds like all the bass has been sucked out. What has happened is, the alignment of the harmonic support structure on some of those lower notes has shifted. The support has shifted to another pressurized area of the room or even into a physical object in the room. Blow up a long tube balloon and squeeze it somewhere and you will feel the pressure of the balloon shifting positions. Do this in a few different areas of the balloon and notice that each time you do it the pressure change feels different and sounds different when you tap on the surface of the balloon. Keep in mind that this balloon has the same amount of air and relative space, but the dispersion of this space will change with the slightest squeeze. Music is made up off thousands of timbre variations all having notes that change as the note fundamental is squeezed. You might say nonsense, arguing that a wave is not as strong as that balloon skin. But let me remind you that a sound wave is strong enough to shake every material and mechanical structure in you home and can even shatter glass.

The power of your recordings are there, even the ones you have claimed bad remasters or have larger amounts of compression and limiting applied. Dynamics is a different topic but believe me, unless something has gone desperately wrong in the recorded chain, there's a lot more info than you think.

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