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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:26 pm

Hi Sonic,

I would say that the wood is either Red Wood or Western Red Cedar. I also used pieces of other wood for my points of transfer between levels.

It's good to keep a stock of transfer woods in your tuning closet. Every system's dynamic is different, so what one may use might be different than the next person. In general though I keep a healthy stock around of western cured wood. In Nevada I will keep plenty of wood selections around for your tuning pleasure.

Here is the points of transfer chart to see basic places wood may go.


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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:07 am

Hi Michael

What's a Spring Pole?

Please describe it and the things that make it up also how it can be implemented in a system.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:26 am

Hi Michael and friends at Tuneland

A bit more on my comments on Sakuma-san.

This Japanese gentleman has some very unique ideas that are at odds with mainstream audio engineering. For instance, his primary theory is "like-drives-like" which means in the amps he designs, if the main power tubes are 300Bs he will use 300Bs as his driver tubes. Now many amp designers will balk at this -- they will talk about mismatches, sub-optimal gain and drive and stuff like that. But Sakuma and his fans say this gives the true characteristic of the tubes being used.

Then he talks about using lots of interstage transformers. Theoretically, this can cause roll-offs and compromised dynamics with all the problems that come with transformers and their inductance. There are those who claim that this makes Sakuma's amps all about midrange and nothing else.

Of course he thinks in terms of mono...he has been even known (I am told) to choose amp combinations with speakers to just get the spirit of a recording eg: to play an early Modern Jazz Quartet LP, he may choose his Garrard 301, SME and Denon 102, direct-heated 845 amps with Lowthers. Then if the next record is say, Elgar Enigma by Beecham, then another combination of amps and speakers are set up.

Crazy or just as possibly wonderful.

He talks about Frame of Tone, energy and how the emotional state of the person soldering your cables and building the chassis and amp shows in the sound of the final product. Maybe this is far-fetched. But so much of the sound of a system and room cannot be caught in the numbers of an equation and on the screen of a RTA. The Tune reflexts the same idea.

Given what Sakuma-san is attempting and thinking. And with what Michael is doing in my room, all this is precious and beautiful.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:01 pm

Sonic,

I have both redwood and western red cedar and the wood block on top of the MW appears to be red cedar. I have found that redwood can soften more so that cedar.

Thanks for posting updated pictures.
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:18 pm


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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:47 am

Hi Garp

Thanks for telling me what that wood is...Red Cedar...

This last weekend was full of listening and tuning as I tried a few new things that the sound indicated rather than following diagrams (though it is always good to learn from the experiences of others, don’t get Sonic wrong).

This is what I did:

a. Moved the 2 FS Deluxe RoomTunes from behind the rack and moved them to the rear of the room where the DIY “aeroplanes” were. This leaves the zone between the rack and the front wall bare.

b. The two DIY “aeroplanes” were removed from the room.

Effect: The soundfield enlarged a lot but the images were diffused and the sound echoey.

c. A pair of EchoTunes went back to the front vertical corners at mid-wall height.

Effect: Better but something was still not right…..Idea! Sonic tried something that didn’t work before….

d. Mounted a pair of Shutters on each side of the window.

Effect: The whole sound locked into place. Dimensional, tonally rich and the volume came up. More sense that sound images and ambience was coming from thru the side walls. I thought my system’s imaging will fall apart without the Room Tunes behind the rack but they are now with the PZCs behind the listening chair and the room is making very good music.

Music listened to: Jean Marie Leclair's Sonatas and Overtures, Ancient Music of Hungary (Harmonia Mundi), Corelli's sonatas for solo violin and harpsichord (Andrew Manze - Harmonia Mundi), Bob Dylan Blood on the Tracks.

I need to let this set up settle and trim in the Shutter angles and refine the set up over the next few days. Pix to follow.

Michael, if you had 4 real Aeroplanes to place in my room, where will you start?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:34 pm

Hi Sonic,

Since you are getting use to the Sound Shutters I would start with angles between the speakers and the front wall and speakers and you (off to the sides). This would show you your zones. Then I would tune them to different settings in different placements till I understood the room/shutter reaction (relationship). Tuning the AeroPlanes (with the tuning screws & weight) will tell you tons. Also with you getting to know wood & curing & size (of the little pieces) this too will do tons for the sound.

The key is "thinking out of the box". I like it when you let your ears take over and let the placement charts sit in idle. For me this is the way to do things. Of course I have to make charts to get people started but I love seeing someone put their ears to good use. I will keep making the tools as tunable as possible and you can tune. I always see things in peoples systems that I would do a little different, but more than this I listen to what they are hearing and it tells me what yet needs to be done. I would say that my designing strong points would be listening to harmonic structure and how this structure can flow in and out of tune. For this reason I look at simplicity VS number of parts, and the audio trilogy being one unit instead of three separate parts and functions. I don't distinguish between acoustical energy and electrical energy as being different for example. I see these as being different shades of the same thing. Energy blends into other energy as more of a continuum than a fixed line of separation. The more I see someone become good at tuning the more I see them adopt this philosophy in sound.

While I'm gabbing let's take a chunk of air for example. In the world as we live in it this chunk of air has all 3 parts to the audio trilogy, acoustical, mechanical, and electrical. These parts are not separated by a fixed line but inter mingle and host a cooperative unit, one being a part of the other to complete their function. What we do in tuning is find a fare exchange balance of the 3. It's as easy as too much salt or too little salt in cooking. When we find a balance in sound one thing always happens, the sound stage becomes infinite without boundaries. A recording becomes real size.

Harmonic structure is the first thing I listen for when I sit down to a system. If a system doesn't have this then I know that I must start looking for the blockage causing the imbalance. This is why I open "all of everything" up. I go after the end results right from the beginning instead of stopping short of "in-tune". I know that if I am in the middle of harmony I can go anywhere I want. BTW, did you know that if you go 12 harmonics up from A above middle C you are at the color red? And if you go down 6 harmonics from the same A you can separate the disks in your back. Harmonics are the #1 thing to establish in listening.

Anyway, I'm enjoying your thread. Keep thinking balance!

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:32 pm

Hi Sonic,

This may be way too much for the eyes to look at but when you think of the zoning going on with AreoPlanes these are some key spots to look at. Remember you don't have to turn the AeroPlanes that are sitting side by side in a symmetrical pattern.


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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:20 pm

Hi Michael

Thanks very much for the drawing. I’ll try this shortly with my DIY “aeroplanes” after I get myself out of a Tuing Jam.

What Jam does Sonic mean?

I made the classic mistake of moving too fast before letting things settle, and heaping tune on tune. Unless you are Michael…don’t try this at home…I got mixed up and had to back track now.

Removing the FS RoomTunes from the front wall increased the volume and the liveness of the soundstage but it started to create an ambient sound that lacked focus and image density. After a few days Sonic felt that this caused a lack of drive and impact, even though images were more upfront. A rather strange effect.

So the FS RoomTunes are now back at the front wall. This means the EchoTunes in the front vertical corners have to come down because there is too much burn in the front. The Shutters went back to where they were on the floor and basically Sonic has done a “system restore” to a last known point.

I’m working slowly forward again. The thing I recognized after my PZCs and Deluxe RoomTunes “switched on” is that my DIY “aeroplanes” sounded really DIY. Now I can hear their full influence. Not bad, just a bit thick and artificial.

This is not an Ad for Tuneland: the real stuff from Tuneland really sounds different and it is hard to duplicate the effect. Yes, MW, Red Cedar and Brazilian Pine all make a difference that regular plywood or cardboard cannot approach. Of course Michael, you may want to look at the Asian woods (only if harvested in a responsible and eco-friendly way with no damage to animal life and habitat) and they could add to Tuneland’s palette of sound.

Sonic is trying the system over this weekend without the DIY “aeroplanes”. Let’s see how that goes.

I’ll also try reducing the burn of the FS RoomTunes (48”) by fixing painting canvas on the absorptive side. Michael recommended this to Sonic when I asked him in a PM about cutting the absorption of my RoomTunes.

Sonic thinks that the next order from Michael will be mostly Aeroplanes.

Michael, can a 24” x 48” aeroplane function like a SAM? I can place one behind my chair with two FS PZCs flanking and the third PZC I have can go to the front wall between the 2 RoomTunes – something Drewster and Hiend1 did in their systems with good results (from what I see from their threads).

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:07 am

Hi Sonic,

This is a great time for you. Going backward to go forward is a part of listening. Those who never do this end up missing out on a lot of music's content. This is a time where you can reflect on a few things. The most important of these is the fact that our systems are highly tunable and able to recover from a side ways step. It is also time for us to see how different each piece of music is.

The second one of these 2 is very near and dear to my heart because of being personally involved in recording on every level. The best systems are always the most tunable ones.

Sometimes I jump into a thread to add direction other times I like to watch a thread and see how we all come to the same conclusions. It makes the techno-zone a nice place to be.

I'm excited about the idea of your next couple of steps. This is a fascinating time.

The 24" X 48" does act like a S.A.M. to a degree but the MGA Tuning Panels do more so. The thing that I like about the panel is that it has an in-wall tuner as a part of it, and you can add or take away "burn" very easily. I can see that my new style of PZC, the AeroPlane, and the Panel as being big in the tune over the next while.



Yes, I do buy only from "green safe" harvesting forest. It's so important to take care of our environment these days. The thing I like about the new forests are the fast growing trees. These trees are breed so that the harvesting can be done after a very short time. The rings are a good size on some of these which is great for tonal balancing. I'm always happy to explore new types of wood in my listening so fill free to let me know of some of the favored species over there.

Your doing great!

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:14 pm

Hi Michael

The Wall Tuning Panels at $200 each are very attractive.

I think I'll go that way and use one as a SAM. They are only 1.75" deep -- are there feet to keep them from falling forwards or backwards?

I don't know how heavy the Walls are but safety and stability are important.

Sonic noticed that even after going back a few steps the musick was not right. Idea yes...check the tightness of all connections. And sure enough, a cable to the tweeter and to the subwoofer were too loose. This means the treble on one channel was wrong and the sub output was not right. Not saying they were off or intermittent. The affected tweeter ribbon and the sub were giving output but the energy and the tone of the music was wrong which why I started checking things.

In Tune procedure, we don't tighten speaker binding posts -- the cables should just hold, not slip and then maybe 1/32 turn tighter. But with time and the vibration of the speakers, the cables can go loose. And this can cause right Tunes to sound wrong.

Tightened them up and Very Happy we are getting somewhere. The sound is familiar to Sonic again.

Now to go back to PZCs and FS RoomTunes in the rear of the room, EchoTunes in front corners, Shutters on either side of the window and start listening again.

Oh well. We learn.

Sonic Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:34 pm

Learn we do!

It's nice to feel the system as a whole. When something goes out of tune we can put it back in and move on.

Now is probably a good time to introduce the new generation of PZC's. After years of using the PZC and building tunable rooms I feel that it has come time for the 2 to meet. The MGA Tuning Wall Panel is the new version of Pressure Zone Controllers. There will be different styles based on the need. Their designed for "more or less". You can add as much burn as you wish or use them as a S.A.M.. They can stand alone (like the drawing below) or they can be connected by a hing or even stacked by attacking the frames together. These units will come 12" wide or 24" wide.

For example: the unit you are thinking about is a 24" X 48" off wall Tuning Panel with Tuning Base (spiked). The option that you would need is the Tuning Base ($100.00 techno-zone price) because you are not connecting the unit to another unit and you will need the stability. Basically you would be buying a S.A.M./PZC combo for $300.00 without the burn or $400.00 with interchangeable maximum burn. The burning system is my RoomTune Squares design. You would get the fitted Squares with grommets and eye hooks.

I'll do drawings for all of this on your thread so that it makes sense, also I will be putting up these drawings in the catalog.



This is the logical step toward making unified tunable systems. I think all of you will enjoy this next step. Please ask questions as they will aid me in how I will want to make things clear to the listeners.

PS tune trainee will be getting a pair of the smaller size for his room so I'm sure he will be posting pictures. I will help you guys place your orders of these so you are sure of what you are getting. If you see the higher prices on other stores price listings please reference your private pricing from us at "the tuning room". Our prices in the techno-zone family typically run half or a little more of retail. I won't promote these prices much on the zone so just ask for your family pricing when you talk to me.

now go have some fun listening!

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:01 pm

Hi Michael

After Sonic discovered the loose speaker cables, the Tune is coming back.

This is the set I am listening to....of course it is a work in progress:

Front wall:



Listening Area:





I found an application where balsa squares seem to work -- over Harmonic Springs under the mains power strips that feed the low signal section of the system and the power amps.

The Energy Density, Projection and Tone is coming back.

Music listened to include Matthew Locke Pieces for Broken Consort, Johann Hermann Schien Banchetoo Musicale (Hesperion XX), Tschaikovsky string quartets and a Singapore modern composer who wrote pieces for synthesizer programme to a 16 tone scale.

I've sent you a PM for my next order which include the Tunable Walls and maybe a couple of Aeroiplanes.

Sonic is trying out wings on the Magneplanars -- that is wood extensions on either side of the panel about 14" each way to separate the front and back waves. I'm using my DIY aeroplanes after the FS RoomTunes took their places. The sound is commendable but I must stay focussed and not introduce too many things at one time.

Michael, what do you think of "Wings" for Magneplanars?

I read some Japanese audio mags -- Stereo Sound and Tube Kingdom -- and the venerable Japanesed practice appears to very different involving:

a. small rooms (very small in some cases)

b. no acoustic treatment that can be seen

c. very large speakers -- horns mostly -- very efficient

d. low power tube amps

e. near field listening (no choice given the small rooms)

It seems the Japanese audiophiles attempt to overpower their small rooms with their speakers.

Given the housing conditions in little Singapore, some audiophiles I know are gojng this way.

What is your view on this approach Michael?

Have you tuned any rooms and systems in Japan?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:24 pm

Hi Sonic,

It's so interesting reading your thread. As I have always said the systems that are the most variable using the right ratio of mass are the best sounding systems. When I say this I'm referring to upward mass control (top tuning) as well. Top tuning is a must and changes all the variables.

Yes, I was one of the original designers I think for the wings on panel speakers from way back (the 80's). Maggie's, Sound Labs, IRS, Eminent Tech, Logins, Accoustats, Apogees, and PLSAs were some of the companies I designed them for. I also designed a bunch of different stands for these same companies. Here's what happened though. I fell into a problem because a lot of these speaker owners listened to my speakers for much less $$$ and stepped into my speakers instead of putting money into tweaks for these other models. If you read some of the early reviews people were putting my 5's up against some of the bigger panel speakers and choosing the 5's. This caused a bit of a crisis for me as some of the speaker companies were promoting my acoustics.

Oh well, life goes on right?

Japan, China, Your country, and some of the surround countries allowed me to gain much knowledge about climates, bone structure in the ears, system & room designs, and trends. I pay more attention to trends now then when I was there because back then I was a trend (hopefully a good trend). There were over 20.000 listeners in your area (and surroundings) using my products. What I noticed back then was that a surprising number of listening rooms had rooms built inside of rooms. These interior rooms were made of wood. Some of them were earily versions of MGA Tunable Rooms, RPG rooms, or homemade whatever goes rooms. Interesting to me was how many people bought PZC's and the numbers they would buy per room. It was not uncommon for a small room to have 48 PZC's in it. Over kill is a trend that will always be there among audiophiles. You will also see a lot of trend follows for the sake of the trend itself.

Here's the good news, I see many good things in todays systems as apposed to a few years ago. These small amps are wonderful to tune. In time they will end up around 15 to 25 watts. 1 to 2 watts with a 15 to 25 watt dynamic overhead. This is a perfect amp for high efficiency speakers. Speakers under 91db 1w 1meter will come to an end or be greatly reduced as the inexpensive low watt amps steal most of the market away. Panel speakers will either build their systems active or there will be a few companies around building amps suited for the panel lovers. Keep an eye out for high efficiency panels that might come out.

Now with the horns, I have always found horns to be highly tunable when done in a lower mass configuration. You'll notice that some of my newer models are using horns. At the same time I'm finding other woofers and tweeters that are very tunable. Together with the all wood cabinet designs these speakers are going to really rock. If there is ever a panel speaker that starts at 94db without their weird load I will design a panel speaker as well. My goal is to design tunable speakers period. To me if a system is not tunable than it is not a system that is able to adapted to music's demands.

I say all this to say, I'm not impressed with listeners that don't incorporate the 3 parts of the audio trilogy. Blasting horns in a room improperly treated is something an untrained ear would do. Forcing sound waves to pressure a room without balance is not ever going to catch on long term (sound doesn't work that way), it is just the same ole circle coming back through town a few years later.

Now taking a look at the good again, it's great to see Eminence (or similar) drivers being used more in high end. For years speaker designers have been using products that are just too hard to drive. This forced the user to have amps that were way over built with many to many parts. Too many parts is never good for sound. Seeing the shift toward simplify makes me very happy even if there are misunderstandings about how to balance a system. Remember those systems of the 90's that sounded like under powered shrilling machines? I'd rather hear over dynamics than under dynamics any day. I think for the untrained ear it is probably a good thing that the new systems are horns. At least if some of the room acoustics (and other issues) aren't right the listener still has dynamics instead of thin. Back in the 80's 90's, and until about 2 years ago, when a system did not sound right people would play the blaming game. Now we at least will be going back to the days of mid-fi music thumping systems. I personally am not crazy about any system out of tune but I can listen to mid-fi much easier than thin and under powered.

Music needs dynamics to deliver pace and pitched rhythm. Can we get there from the systems of the 60's or the systems of the 80's better? That's a question that I think people are going through right now. For us the tunees though it's good that we have seen what we don't like and have available to us what we do like. For me the choice of drivers being offered today gives this designer much to tune which makes me very happy.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:16 pm

Hi Michael

Attempting to use hi-efficiency speakers with tube amps to overpower room acoustics is a dubious approach. I recently heard 2 systems where horn speakers or horn augmented speakers were used in untreated rooms. The sound from the speakers was fast, bright and clear so on...but I felt I was listening to sound not to a musical performance. The room and the music from the speakers were separated from each other. There was one Frame of Tone for the music from the hifi system and another tone for the room. Odd. Both these systems visually emulated the music systems in Stereo Sound and Tube Kingdom. Small, untreated rooms, extreme nearfield listening. Horns or efficient speakers with low wattage tube amps. Lots of equipment placed on the floor between and behind the speakers. A tight squeeze in such a small room.

They sounded pretty good with analog -- LP and tape.

You just managed to move into the room and sit down, and there is enough space to reach forward to cue an LP/SP/EP, thread a tape or load a CD.

But I did hear one system later with large JBLs (twin 15" woofers per cabinet) mid-horns and compression tweeters . This is a tube biamped system in a tiny room and that sounded really good with excellent detail. Yet the listening levels were sane. This is probably one of a few exceptions.

But the Tune is going well in Sonic's system. I'll tell more in the next few days after settling takes place.

Sonic is also looking at ordering one or two 24"x 48" x 4.5" tuning walls with bases and this can create a Tuneable wall behind me which can in turn free up a FS PZC and the FS roomtunes to be placed in the front wall zone for soundstage area tuning.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:36 pm

Hi Sonic,

Very good!! I like your latest thoughts.

I love to listen to the pressure off of the wall behind me. It brings the music pressure to life. I could see you ending up with 3 or 6 Tuning Panels behind you in time.



Heading in the direction that you are is a good move.

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PostSubject: Sonic's Hypothesis   Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:13 pm

Hi friends at Tuneland

Sonic would like to propose a hypothesis on the effect of Michael's Sound Shutters.

Let's start with a Sound Shutter mounted on a wall and it is mounted at the junction of two pressure zones along that wall. If it is set perpendicular to the wall, the pressure zones on either side of the shutter will be equal in size. For sure other objects in the room like furniture will affect the zones but whatever the sizes, a shutter mounted this way will keep the zones apart and maintain their relative sizes on either side of the junction formed by the Shutter.

Now angle that shutter at 45 degrees to the wall. The pressure zone on the obtuse side (135 degs) will be allowed to expand and the zone on the acute side (45 degs) of that Shutter will shrink. In this way a Shutter can affect the acoustics of the room.

Sonic has been talking about mid-soundstage recession that could put vocals back in the soundstage moving them towards the front wall. Now having two Shutters on the front wall, Sonic angled them to 45 degs toed outwards.

And the mid-soundstage grew in size and volume, vocals and instruments in the centre of the stage between the speakers came forward. If my hypothesis is right this is because the toed-out Shutters allowed the centre pressure zone to expand in size or strengthen and the two zones at the acute angle sides of the shutters to shrink or reduce in intensity.

Then I tried angling the other shutters in my room and...yes they have an audible effect. In some cases they could act like a mild balance control. In other cases, a zone can be made to expand to the point that the sound in that zone could sound diffuse. What fun Shocked Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:48 pm

Yes, I agree!!

When we start looking at a room together with hearing it size, pace, pitch, and rhythm come to life.



When I walk around a room I listen to the pressure zones and how they reproduce harmonics. This tells me what a fundamental will do at the listening position as well as the other parts of the room.

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PostSubject: Adjusting the Pressure Zones   Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:18 pm

Hi Michael and friends at Tuneland

Thanks Michael -- glad to know Sonic is on the right track about using your gear to adjust pressure zones.

Since the start of this weekend, Sonic is using this new understanding to revisit some old Tunes and get some new and better results.

I see the tuning will focus around trying the FS DRTs at the front using them to baffle off the side pressure zones and strengthen the one in the middle to give girth and Frame of Tone to centre images. This may involve a setting with the two reflective sides facing into the centreline of the room instead of the more normal side walls.

I may revisit Shutters ahead of the speakers but angles to emphasize the middle Pressure Zones.

The use of AeroPlanes or baffles to deal with the the rear corners. These are proving to be the Real Zone of Problems in my room -- the two rear corners are audibly deader than other Zones. Expand them and everything else gets choked. Shrink them and something in the Energy of the room is compromised.

What to do Michael? That is without removing the bookcases out of the room. Sonic is thinking of taking up Michael's suggest to build something to cover the front of the bookscases when listening and allow quick access when required. Also Michael, what did you mean when you asked me if there were EchoTUnes between the bookcases and the walls? Will sandwiching EchoTunes between the cases and the wall do anything like ground the cases to the back wall?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:12 pm

Hi Sonic,

This is so exciting for me. You are really learning your room.

Pressure zones have another interesting quality, they feed off of each other. As you are discovering when you close one door you open another. This is a balancing act I call "fair exchange". When you find the different energy origins then you can also find corresponding energy sources that can be used to balance out the source your wanting to become balanced. In other words "you are correct" that the front pressure zones are being effected by your rear pressure zones. The book cases (as painful as this is) are effecting the sound coming from the front areas.

Let me show you how this works. Take a long balloon. Notice that when you squeeze it at one end how the pressure runs down to the other end? Now imagine what would happen if the balloon was not flexible enough to accommodate the pressure when it shifted. The pressure would struggle to have release. The release is commonly found in a zone that can exchange with it the easiest.

The pressure in your room is wanting to find balance. The walls are only going to flex so much, so what is in the room is either going to absorb the pressure or give off the same value that the pressure is creating by mechanically coupling with the pressure.

Creating a pressure area directly behind your head can go a long way to allowing your ears to hear the sound that is being produced by the system. I'm a big fan of creating my own pressure zone to listen to. If you look at rooms that I have owned that have hard walls you will almost always see me do this. I know exacting where my ears want to be in a room. This is why I usually find my place then bring the speakers to me as I balance out the rest of the system. Fighting the balance in a room is double hard without having the support of a back pressure zone that is not reproducing a balanced full range picture of the music.

A couple of things to always keep in mind.

First, the music is in your system somewhere. People many times treat systems as if they are good or bad. In reality a system is only a bunch of parts that where designed in somebody's place to work with their system in their environment. Typically this same system will never work as good in someone else's place. By breaking the system down to the point where it can vibrate with the same intensity (per conduit/signal ratio) and same harmonic structures as the music itself and then be tuned in to the music it is playing is the only way a system can truly be a reproducer of the signal.

And second, bring the music to you instead of you chasing the music. Everyones system has the ability to pass the musical content through the different stages of amplification and pressurization. Your job is to remove the things that are blocking the sound source signal from vibrating in harmony (conduit to conduit) and then tuning in the signal's energy to match the signature of the original signal's identity or take it to your desired harmonic structure. Your system of course will only reproduce the signal to the level of the weakest link. Knowing this we can create our own set of values for our ears by bringing the system (the whole system) into a working relationship with the most important part of the system "our ears". How do we do this? If you build up the pressure around your ears so that it is more potent than the pressure in other parts of the room than you can create your own set of values with the music content without having to fight a part of the room that is keeping the other pressure zones from fully developing. Creating your on room in a room is sometimes the best answer for dealing with anomalies produced by objects that do not reproduce a balanced vibration structure on their own.

The questions that face Sonic are can the bookcases be made to sound like the music, or is it time to build a new set of values in the area right behind your head? Or both? Sonic has moved to a level of listening that has out grown his room as it is. Your learning your pressure zones (where they are, what they can produce). Now you can begin to figure out what your ears need from the system to deliver the quality you want. If it were me, I would try a couple of tweaks on the bookcases and be looking seriously at building my own tunable wall of pressure behind my head.

Here's a hint: keep thinking pressure! What do your ears need to reproduce the music?

very nice job!!

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:42 am

Hi Michael an friends at Tuneland

sunny the sound has been pretty good this weekend and Sonic just added a Tunestrip to the window blind at the front wall. See my post of Oct 18, 2009 and you'll get what Sonic means. I took a Tunestrip and clipped it to the top of the bamboo blind....and the sound got really nice.

So nice that I didn't want to spend days just moving tune gear around and testing. You know when the tone is right, when the sound energy has good density you just want to listen and listen and not be bothered with tweaking.

But Sonic does try things and I remember something Michael suggested abut placing EchoTunes between the rear of the bookcases and the wall. I did this -- with the reflective side of the EchoTunes in contact with the rear of the cabinets and the sound got clearer, calmer and with better ambience.

This is an eye opener -- the pressure is building up a bit in the rear of the room too.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:55 am

Hi Sonic,

Air pressure!! probably the most overlooked part of the hobby. It doesn't take much air pressure to change everything.

I remember when we talked about these guys who are turning it up hoping that this will force the system to sound good. Nothing could be further from the truth. The fact is the room is already filled with the pressure needed, all we have to do is balance it in a way that builds the full musical range around out ears.

In the rear of your room is where the closest pressure zone is to your ears. It's natural for us to look forward cause that's where the speakers are but when you start seeing where the pressure is in the room this changes our perception of how we need to balance the room. We can do as much to the front staging from the rear of the room as the front of the room easily.

Your going to go through some big jumps the more you look behind you.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:29 pm

Hi friends at Tuneland

Sonic asked Michael if there was a way to increase the reflection/diffusion of a FS DRT to build thepressure zones in the rear of my room.

Michael has replied that one way is to clamp a board to the front (reflective side) of the RoomTune. Sonic tried this and Michael is right, but the wood used can affect he sound.

I used a 1/2" piece of plywood and though I can hear the reflection improve, a "papery" colouration comes in which corresponds to the sound of the plywood when I tap it.

Michael, can you make a DRT-to-PZC conversion set up? That will be fun!

Sonic also experimented with the EchoTunes slipped behind the bookcases. They have some effect but no that much. Sonic is looking to make the bookcases vanish at least acoustically. Right now I am experimenting with where these EchoTunes (2 pieces) should go behind the bookcases.

Michael, can you sugest any alternative placement of the 4 bookshelves in my room. You had one some time ago and maybe you can suggest something better since I have described my room to you. Do you have a placement that can work even if I had to keep the CD cabinet where it is now?

Sonic

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:12 pm

Hi Michael

How's the move to Vegas going? Do post some pics of your new factory and your system over there. Sonic learns so much from your set up and your systems.

The sound in my room has got better -- this last week, Sonic had the 4 mild steel genuine Michael Green rods supporting the subwoofer amp stand turned on a lathe and sharpened to a point with a 1.5" taper. OK, the machine shop could not get a really sharp point without using a CNC lathe (and charging me lots more) so i settled for this a slight blunt cone tip.

It sure made the upper bass and lower mids come alive with much better articulation. On some vocal pieces, the words (in English, French, Latin whatever are more recognizable). The girth is more weighty with good tone too.

Then Sonic experimented with the position and number of EchoTunes between the back of the bookcases and the wall.

Best was 2 EchoTunes, behind the 2 bookcases nearer the room centre line. The top of the EchoTunes in line with the top of shelves, and about a foot in (previously, they were at the inner edge of the bookcases).

The sound is louder, stronger with good, dense tone. The treble is clean and calm. Image focus is OK and detached from speaker positions but I could do with a bit more 3D in imaging. But the sound is sure enjoyable.

Sonic is concentrating on the treatment around and on/in the bookcases because of what Michael said -- tuning the rear of the room can effect the sound from the front.

But as this is going, the sound is so satisfying that unless I had a strong tuning idea to try, it is so much more fulfilling to just listen to CD after CD (soon to come, maybe reel tape).

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:16 pm

Hi Michael and friends at Tuneland

Sonic thinks we may be getting there. I found that at slightly higher listening levels -- just 1 or 2 clicks more on my preamp -- the sound opens up, fills the room and has most of the mid-soundstage projection I am looking for.

Sonic is not running the system too loud. I got a SLM to prove it!

The average levels are still in the high 70 dBs range. Many of the audiophiles I know listen at levels much higher than this.

At these slightly higher levels, I can hear sound all round me. It is still "patchy" but the room is alive.

Then Sonic moved the two EchoTunes behind the bookcases further towards the corners -- they now sit at the 1/3 points of the width of the room -- and the sound opened up even more. I got more width, the sidewalls started to let more music thru and sounded wider than the room width and the imaging upfront improved just as Michael said they would. On some CDs say of harpsichords, the image is a bit too wide. Not like Bose speakers but for sure wider than real. Never mind...we let the the system settle and keep he musick going. Large orchestral works are pretty good.

Music listened to: Bach's Well-tempered Clavier, Art of the Fugue and French suites, some McCoy Tyner and Mozart's Divertimentos (Koopman).

Sonic
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