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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:18 am


Hi Zonees

Sonic has done more tuning and found that getting soundstage width beyond my room's sidewalls does not include moving the FS-DRTs special along the front wall. This is not the solution.

When too close to the FS-PZCs pair in the centre of the front wall, the soundstage image is narrow and by moving the FS-DRTs apart, the width builds up but only up to a point. Beyond the optimal distance, the soundstage gets no wider but just goes out of focus.

Frustrating this might be but it homes in on the solution (Sonic is trying to be an optimist) that the source of the width lies elsewhere, forward of the front wall. It could be something to be done at the sidewalls or even closer to the listening chair or even behind it.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:50 am

Hi Sonic

The more I hear you describe the sound the more it reminds me of the sound of silver. Are you absolutely sure the silver is not shrinking things while giving the cleanliness? Do the silver cables have barrels on them? I have a feeling you have a signal thing happening and not just an acoustical situation. One thing about smaller gauges is that it can make the bigger connectors and parts stick out.

Do me a favor and take pics of other places you have used the Space Cones. This will tell me what is going on with the energy in the room.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:14 am

Here's what I do in the corners till I find the right field size. This is a fair starting point.








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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:28 am

Hi Michael and Zonees

Those Space Cone application guides are helpful and Sonic will attempt them.

While I have been testing silver cables in my system, the description I have been making over the last month in my thread is with no silver cables in my system -- I am running end to end with Picasso and Bare Essence Type 2 and 3 throughout.

Sonic does like something about silver but for the purpose of getting my system together and making sure there is no confusion, I have been using MGA cables. They have been run in long enough and all settled.

In addition to the Space Cones on my doors (left and right of my room) reported in my last post, I have placed Space Cones on my bookcase wall:







Together, the main contribution of the Space Cones is first ambience and then girth, but there is frustratingly no expansion of the soundstage beyond my room boundaries yet.

I am thinking of alternatives t get this, but upfront there is a lot of air in the sound which is nice.

The silver cables I am using have barrels, but there is something in the sound that is appealing. From my tuning notes, the soundstage width is very similar between the MGA (Picasso/Bare Essence) cables and the >26 AWG silver solid core cables. The width after settling is the same, the outside image or lack of it is identical between the two cables. In terms of tone, the silver is smoother and sweeter on top, while the Picasso/Bare Essence is little slightly louder and rougher - some will call this more dynamic -- in the upper mids and lower treble.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:37 am

Hi Michael and Zonees

I tried the Space Cones (on MW) on the front side walls. These didn't work:











The effect of the Space Cones here produced a thin sound, no improvement in width but a strange sense of images at the wall wrapping forward or sometimes upwards -- up the walls (drives me up the wall). The solution certainly doesn't lie in this direction.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:45 am

Use the cable without the barrel if you can. The shielding that a barrel makes causes a field around the cable. I think you will find it to open up even more.

If you are able to do this without hurting any of the Magic Wood put a piece of copper foil tape between the AAB and the MW on the speakers and tell me what you hear. Also check the shields you made for the chips and see if you have used too much wood. One thing I have always noticed about shields are that they can shut things down fast.

Last month I was tweaking on a pair of Logans and I got them to go way past the walls. I'm sure that the maggies will too.

Give me the dimensions of the room from the bookshelves to the front of the room and the width.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:57 am

Try putting the SC in a different spot (not on the trim) and try them in the middle as well before taking them out of the corners. Sounds like they are trying to talk to other energy sources but can't find them. If you get a sound that is like a bad connection it means that a pattern that has been introduced is not making a smooth spherical pattern. This can be very similar to diversity towers.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:16 pm

I've also designed Space Towers that make the art of fields quite a bit more manageable.



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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:55 am

Hi Michael and Zonees

What's a "diversity tower"?

Sonic doesn't understand what "put a piece of copper foil tape between the AAB and the MW on the speakers" means .

I've reduced the number of copper/MW shields -- I got to the point where further reduction in the number of shields cause a whitening out of the the sound. But it is a very small effect, so mall that it could be my imagination. The number of shields I now have are about right with about one shield too many at max. So I amleaving things as they are so as not to change too many things at one time.

My room dimensions measured from the surface of the bookcase wall are
16.5 ft (L) x 14 ft (W) x 10.5 ft (H).

Sonic has taken the Space Cones down from the doors and the bookcase wall and I'm now rebuilding the tune so the Space Cones can talk to other energy sources in the room.

This pix shows where I am starting by placing 3 Space Cones in each front upper tricorner.







Sonic




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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:01 pm

A DT is used in reception of waves.

Antenna diversity, also known as space diversity, is any one of several wireless diversity schemes that uses two or more antennas to improve the quality and reliability of a wireless link. Often, especially in urban and indoor environments, there is no clear line-of-sight (LOS) between transmitter and receiver. Instead the signal is reflected along multiple paths before finally being received. Each of these bounces can introduce phase shifts, time delays, attenuations, and distortions that can destructively interfere with one another at the aperture of the receiving antenna.

Antenna diversity is especially effective at mitigating these multi path situations. This is because multiple antennas offer a receiver several observations of the same signal. Each antenna will experience a different interference environment. Thus, if one antenna is experiencing a deep fade, it is likely that another has a sufficient signal. Collectively such a system can provide a robust link. While this is primarily seen in receiving systems (diversity reception), the analog has also pr oven valuable for transmitting systems (transmit diversity) as well.

Inherently an antenna diversity scheme requires additional hardware and integration versus a single antenna system but due to the commonality of the signal paths a fair amount of circuitry can be shared. Also with the multiple signals there is a greater processing demand placed on the receiver, which can lead to tighter design requirements. Typically, however, signal reliability is paramount and using multiple antennas is an effective way to decrease the number of drop-outs and lost connections.

The same thing happens with the energy in a room.

Space Cones are primarily transfer devices, but also antennas. Try them with and without the Magic Wood as the Wood is a dielectric that may be amplifying or dulling the signal. Once you find your room/systems patterns the stage will snap into place.

On the matter of the shielding. Electrical charges existing between any 2 surfaces sometimes I will build a thin shield between these surfaces to align the transfer signal.



I also use diversity squares for walls out of MW and Poplar and copper.


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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:09 am


Hi Michael and Zonees

Because of the time difference between where Michael and Sonic are, there was opportunity for 3 listening and tuning sessions since we started looking harder at the application of Space Cones in Sonic’s system.

First we have determined that SCs on the side walls and the bookcases are beneficial, the effect is small, mixed and less value given the price. In this spot(s), my soundstage lacked width but there were improvements in girth and some focus. The images started to line up at the front wall (a good thing) but something odd happened to the ambience, a noticeable echo appeared in some recordings where I did not hear this before. Volume level about the same or slightly higher for a given setting.

Some attempts to attach the SCs to the sidewalls produced negative effects which I have posted earlier.

After Michael gave starter charts, Sonic attached cones to the front upper tricorners. NOW THEM SPACE CONES ARE TALKING! Very Happy

Several hours of settling showed what a big improvement this was over the Cones on the doors and the bookcase. So six cones were attached, I had six more on hand.

Placing more cones further down the walls did not improve things – maybe at the wall/floor joint 2 SCs gave more clarity and brought an over-high image down. But mounted at mid-wall height on the front wall at 1 ft + and outwards from the corner lost all benefits of the SCs in the upper tricorners. Where the loudspeakers started to image outside the room – like violin sections extending very clearly outside the LH and RH walls -- this placement closed in the width sharply, a few minutes of listening had Sonic taking them down.

Can you explain this, Michael?

Sonic next worked on the rear upper tricorners. Same setting as in front.

Yes! The air in the room started to “charge up”, volume increased. There is more treble detail and decay of notes and sounds but the sound is not bright. The whole room or acoustic space seems to have doubled in size – or the feeling that the orchestra, band is larger than the physical dimensions of the room. Bass started to have pressure in addition to notes. Sonic can sort of her images and hear round the images. The “charged up air” is particularly good.

The images increased in size and are ranged perfectly across the front wall. For many recordings, the speaker panels appear like they are doing nothing. The instruments at the edges now play in a space outside the physical width of the room. Not much but noticeable.

This is more like it. But this is still short of the 40 foot soundstage referred to in Tuneland legend.

Comments and suggestions Michael? When you tuned the Logans and got them "going way past the walls" are we talking ambience/audience noise or instruments like guitars, pianos and such? A chart will be nice - I just want to make sure we are using the same words to describe the experience.

Any thoughts from my room dimensions (less the space behind the bookcase wall)?

I also found the copper/finished MW shields on the CD player, V-DAC and X-30 to be the right number, not too many nor too few.

Sonic can implement Michael’s idea of placing some copper tape on the MW square that the AAB1x1 cones supporting the Magnaplanars spike down on to. Question: The tip of the cones will puncture the copper tape due to the weight. Is this part of the idea?

Also the edges of the 3M copper tape don't adhere that well to MW (finished or plain). What glue can I use to prevent the copper edges turning up while keeping good sound, not hurting, the music from the MW?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:34 am



Hi Michael and Zonees

Progress! With 12 Space Cones up three-per-tricorner, Sonic listened, started to make a few moves and I got a Big Soundstage That Extends Outside my Room Walls Very Happy

Yes, and the answer that took me this step ahead was...moving my chair forwards till the stage expanded and the focus locked into place. Just about 8 inches forward from where I was there was this point where things got more focussed and the soundstage went outwards.

Of course this is a start and there were things that wern't perfect. There were still remnants of sound images on the speaker panels. Sonic reduced this by changing the angles of the Shutters on the side walls.

Now I got good projection of images and side images are convincingly wide while the room size has expanded or become unrelated to the sound image placement. The images outside the side walls are less focussed than those closer to the centre and the system could give a more solid 40 foot stage but this is a work in progress and we now have Progress.

Michael -- pls comment on this and on the questions in my last post. Also give me some idea of how many more Space Cones I need and where I should put them given my experience that I posted on where they worked and where they didn't.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:28 pm

sonic

Placing more cones further down the walls did not improve things – maybe at the wall/floor joint 2 SCs gave more clarity and brought an over-high image down. But mounted at mid-wall height on the front wall at 1 ft + and outwards from the corner lost all benefits of the SCs in the upper tricorners. Where the loudspeakers started to image outside the room – like violin sections extending very clearly outside the LH and RH walls -- this placement closed in the width sharply, a few minutes of listening had Sonic taking them down.

Can you explain this, Michael?

mg

Energy fields are like musical notes, they have a certain spherical size. If you go too small you will hear a collapse, the same with too big.

sonic

This is more like it. But this is still short of the 40 foot soundstage referred to in Tuneland legend.

Comments and suggestions Michael? When you tuned the Logans and got them "going way past the walls" are we talking ambience/audience noise or instruments like guitars, pianos and such? A chart will be nice - I just want to make sure we are using the same words to describe the experience.

mg

Your heading in the right direction. The closer we get inside of the soundstage the easier it is to get the extreme wide effect.

sonic

Any thoughts from my room dimensions (less the space behind the bookcase wall)?

mg

I would like to hear what it sounds like if you moved your bookshelf 1' closer to the front wall (building up even more pressure).

sonic

Sonic can implement Michael’s idea of placing some copper tape on the MW square that the AAB1x1 cones supporting the Magnaplanars spike down on to. Question: The tip of the cones will puncture the copper tape due to the weight. Is this part of the idea?

mg

Sometimes I puncture the tape to hear how it sounds, but I end up putting a hole where the center of the wood and tape is and set the cone point directly on the wood.

sonic

Also the edges of the 3M copper tape don't adhere that well to MW (finished or plain). What glue can I use to prevent the copper edges turning up while keeping good sound, not hurting, the music from the MW?

mg

The question of glue always scares me cause glue dries so different depending on where you are. Super glue is what I use.

sonic

Progress! With 12 Space Cones up three-per-tricorner, Sonic listened, started to make a few moves and I got a Big Soundstage That Extends Outside my Room Walls

Yes, and the answer that took me this step ahead was...moving my chair forwards till the stage expanded and the focus locked into place. Just about 8 inches forward from where I was there was this point where things got more focussed and the soundstage went outwards.

mg

Everything always effects everything else cheers Very Happy As I said earlier. I thought you were a hair out of the zone. good to see you get inside.

sonic

Michael -- pls comment on this and on the questions in my last post. Also give me some idea of how many more Space Cones I need and where I should put them given my experience that I posted on where they worked and where they didn't.

mg

As you get inside of the soundstage and start to hear the energy work together you will start to look at areas in the room as they talk to you. this will cause you to explore those areas and see what you need to tune. The main thing is you have reached a new level. Forget what the books tell you about square spaces. Make your space work for you. Think spherical not in straight lines.

review the audio trilogy

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:23 am


Hi Michael and Zonees

Sonic moved the bookcases forward by 1 ft while maintaining the relative positioning of the FS-PZC, 2 FS-DRTs and my listening chair. No good at all...

First effect was an even wider soundstage subjectively tripling the width of my 14 ft room....that was promising but as the musick listening progressed I soon noticed a roll-off in the treble and loss of treble energy and bite. Images were well dimensioned but soon the music became fat and the bass boomy.

Tried moving the FS-DRTs about and adjusting the FS-PZCs' tuning bolts. Some improvement but soon found this was going wrong. Very soon, I found myself resisting the urge to put everything back were Sonic started.

The main thing that made me rush to put everything back to the starting point was an oppressive feeling of pressure on my ears. Just like when a plane is decending for landing and with this pressure a distortion of the tonal balance. The sound that was too warm with a thumping in my ears and everything sounding like an old tube amp whose characteristic was too warm and plump. And loud.

No can stomach this sound. Sonic moved the bookcases back (not difficult when they are 2/3s empty), went back to the last point where I moved my listening seat forward and the music came alive again. Relief Very Happy

I then used three MGA Gen 3 cable grounds under each speaker cable to the MG 1.5QRs and got an even more comfortably realistically beyond-walls wide soundstage.

This is excellent and good enough. I'll next try the copper sheets on the MW pieces and my speakers this weekend and see where that goes.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:59 am

Laughing A little scary at first.

You would find that this can all be tuned in and that the distortion (extra sound and pressure) would turn into layers of music. I'm so use to this that I go for this sound right off the bat then tune it in. Once you hear it tuned in and know that the results you experienced is just a step it's a lot easier to deal with.

Laughing sorry for the scare but at least now you know you can get there.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:14 pm



Errr...Michael, how can Sonic tune this in? Some steps please.

Scary, yes because if my moving my seat forward and turning a few bolts got me the Out-Of-Room-Imaging, the bookcases 1 ft forward effect erased all the gains then degraded the sound a lot more more.

The feeling after moving the bookcases back and putting on Handel's solo harpsichord works (Pinnock/Archiv) was such a relief but it took another CD of Gregorian chants to settle Sonic's heart....and settle the system. In this setting with the extra Cable Grounds lifting the speaker cables, the soundstage is even more open through the walls and the ambience of the abbey where the chants were recorded is now like an energy spreading round the room and outside it (just a bit so far). Very good and satisfying.

How do I tune the mush of the bookcase-forward sound to beat this?

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:37 pm

First, enjoy what you have. No need to make a change if what you have is very satisfying.

Second, review the meaning of distortion. It is the plus or minus of the signal without being in tune. By putting your whole system back in tune this energy would be usable.

Let me say though, if your system has been set free from the constraints of the walls this is major cheers and you shouldn't jump to fast before studying the good and what can be better.

You are truly learning your room and the pieces that make up your system in a very holistic way. A way that transcends far beyond the specs we are taught. You now can look at things as positives. If you know you can get a very coherent balance and you know you can get any size of stage than know that you can get both.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:02 am


Hi Michael and Zonees

Being contented is a good thing and Sonic has reached the point which I been working towards for a long time. The length of time is not important; the learnings collected along the way are what counts.

With my system now having a “beyond-the-walls-imaging” capability, I found (not surprisingly) that recordings vary a lot. Some recordings that I think should image 30 ft wide don’t, others that appear be recorded narrow actually give me a surprisingly big soundstage. Sometimes it is instruments that tail off outside my room, sometimes it is ambience, oftentimes it is uncorrelated sounds like audience applause and noises.

What I have got is a Chinese fan shaped soundstage. The Abso!ute Sound writers described their soundstage as a fan with the point at the front wall – that is, the further back you went in the soundstage towards the front wall, the smaller and narrower the images became.

Sonic’s system is the other way round. The broad end of the fan is just beyond the front wall and spreading out into the adjacent rooms and spaces. I still don’t get the 40 foot wide soundstage of Tuneland legend but what I got is satisfying compared to so many systems I heard at much elevated price points.

For sure, the Abso!ute Sound’s presentation could be the effect of an analog LP system with phono cartridges that gave reduced separation as the frequencies of the musical signal increased.

I tried Michael’s suggestion to use copper tape on the MW pieces under the cones that support the Magneplanar 1.5QRs. I used 1.5” x 0.75” copper pieces, four to each MW square with a small space in the middle uncovered for the tip of the cone to sit.

The result? It sounded a lot like when I moved my bookcase wall forwards by 1 ft – a wide soundstage but with a rolled off treble and a boomy bass. In this case (with the copper tape on MW), the treble roll off was not as severe and the boomy bass was accompanied by an improved bass extension. But it sounded strange and had little musical merits I could hang on to.

Michael – your comments on this effect?

Will Sonic keep on tuning? Yes, and here is what I am planning to do:

a. I’ll be ordering a bunch of AAB1x1 SBS and SB cones and plan to use them under my pre-amp, the two power amps and also the X-30 later. The SBS and SB cones were wonderful under my CD player and Sonic plans to extend this through the rest of my system. Along the way, I’ll probably remove the top tuning of the preamp and the X-30 to simplify my set up.

b. I would experiment with MTDs under the FS-DRTs at the front wall to improve focus and increase the upper treble detail that the system is slightly lacking. My system isn't dull at all but there is a little more treble bite I need since Sonic moved the listening seat forward to get the wide soundstage.

Michael -- your view on how I can increase treble detail and bite?

c. One of the Poplar pieces that Sonic received in the last shipment was twisted and warped - it was noticeably warped so it won't sit flat on anything. It could have been flat when it left the MGA worshop but whe it got here, this could have been caused by the humidity or the way I stored the wood.

Michael – what steps can I take to flatten a warped piece of poplar?

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:59 am


Hi fellow Zonees

Isn’t it fascinating that some small pieces of copper tape stuck on the wood squares that support the cones under my loudspeakers can noticeably alter the sound of the system – when, think about it, the copper foil is not even in contact with anything in the audio chain.

Things like this ought to have audiophiles questioning their frames of reference and think beyond things like system damping.

The effect of the copper tape was less than the effect of moving the bookcases forwards obviously but it had the same direction – a rolled off treble, bloated bass, big soundstage and an odd effect like I am not listening to my system and music but rather “sitting in it”. While some Tunees may like this, Sonic finds this slightly disturbing. I certainly want to feel like I am in the space where the performance took place (and from Sonic’s experience listening to live music, I know what this sounds like) but what I am hearing is to me a hifi system artifact.

Sonic is experimenting with the resitone squares under my Quicksliver preamp in some fashion. It could be placed between the casing and the tops of the Harmonic Springs or let the Harmonic Spring contact the casing and use the resitone squares between the bottom of the springs and the Tunerack shelf.

So far Sonic learnt two things – the resitone squares between the Springs and the Tunerack shelf emphasizes midrange. Nice detail but I am losing some expansiveness of the soundstage. And the midrange emphasis starts to become noticeable after a couple of hours of settling.

Sonic is wondering if Michael’s sound targets have shifted recently – with poplar and now the resitone squares, I seem to hear an emphasis towards the midrange. It is nice but different from my earlier tune equipment from MGA that tended to control upper bass and create girth.

I’ll try placing the resitone square in contact with the preamp casing and then grounding down through the Harmonic Springs straight through the Tunerack shelf.

The other thing I discovered was how important top tuning could be. When I removed the top tune assembly – a MW plank and a handwound Harmonic Spring, there was a loss of dimensionality and realism. The music was more believable as a performance by real human beings with top tuning. And top tuning using light pressure where the spring can just slide on the MW plank. If the spring jams and drags on the MW, it is too tight and will close the sound down and give a small over focused soundstage. Too loose and the effect is gone. Takes practice to get it right but that is tuning….

Michael – my question: how can I flatten that piece of warped poplar?

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:49 pm

Sonic


I tried Michael’s suggestion to use copper tape on the MW pieces under the cones that support the Magneplanar 1.5QRs. I used 1.5” x 0.75” copper pieces, four to each MW square with a small space in the middle uncovered for the tip of the cone to sit.

The result? It sounded a lot like when I moved my bookcase wall forwards by 1 ft – a wide soundstage but with a rolled off treble and a boomy bass. In this case (with the copper tape on MW), the treble roll off was not as severe and the boomy bass was accompanied by an improved bass extension. But it sounded strange and had little musical merits I could hang on to.

Michael – your comments on this effect?

mg

Isn't it amazing how powerful energy fields are?

As I said earlier, you can have anything you want. You don't have to go one way or the other as two separate sound choices, but instead any degree in between the extremes. The audiophile hobby I believe still thinks right and wrong. For myself I like the varying ability to choose all of the above. I've been with too many listeners that think differently from each other too judge their sound for them. My job is to free them up to go wherever.

On the bookcase being moved. Did you fill the bookcase with more mass to hear the shift after it made things boom? On the copper. Did you remove the copper little by little till you got to a balance between the good it gave and the sound you didn't like? I very rarely do a sonic movement as an absolute for myself. If I hear a direction that has something that has promise. I introduce that promise very slowly till I find if and how it balances with the rest of the system. It's a very slow and methodical process but leads to unlocking many doors.

Now to the comment of "strange". Strange means something is out of phase with something else in the system. You can make a change at the floor where the speaker is standing (like you just did) and it can effect a resister in your amp. Vibration (energy) does not see different parts. It only sees the overall path and distribution of atom contents.

Michael -- your view on how I can increase treble detail and bite?

Something in your system wants to be lightened up as it tends to pull the balance in the highs down. Once you find it and remove the mass from your setup you will have shimmering highs without any peaks or roll offs. I always try to keep on the path of removing mass and covering fields.

How to fix a warp.

Heat an iron to high heat. Place towel on wood. Glide the iron over the convex, or humped side of the board. Work the iron slowly over the warped area, allowing the heat from the iron to pull moisture from the wood. Iron the area for two to three minutes.

Soak a towel with hot water and squeeze out the excess liquid. Drying the towel in the dryer after getting it soaked also works.

Turn the wood over and lay the hot towel over the concave or sunken area. Place plastic sheeting or plastic wrap over the towel to hold in the moisture. Allow the towel to remain overnight with a light book on it.

Remove the plastic and towel the next day. Check the wood for warping and place a heavy book on the wood for 3 days.

Bake the wood on low heat.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:23 pm

sonic

"The effect of the copper tape was less than the effect of moving the bookcases forwards obviously but it had the same direction – a rolled off treble, bloated bass, big soundstage and an odd effect like I am not listening to my system and music but rather “sitting in it”. While some Tunees may like this, Sonic finds this slightly disturbing. I certainly want to feel like I am in the space where the performance took place (and from Sonic’s experience listening to live music, I know what this sounds like) but what I am hearing is to me a hifi system artifact."

mg

In fact it is a hifi system artifact. In studios engineers use a beefed up hifi (meaning a system of electronics and speakers) to do their work on. We as playback folks have to make this interprtation fit out liking by using equipment that is not so beefed up (to deliver better resolution than the studio). So right there are 2 steps between live and our ear. Is it live? By no means! live is far more dynamic and would pop any manufactured home loudspeaker out of it's frame because of the actually movement of live air pressure (even at low volumes I have experienced).

sonic

"Sonic is experimenting with the resitone squares under my Quicksliver preamp in some fashion. It could be placed between the casing and the tops of the Harmonic Springs or let the Harmonic Spring contact the casing and use the resitone squares between the bottom of the springs and the Tunerack shelf.

So far Sonic learnt two things – the resitone squares between the Springs and the Tunerack shelf emphasizes midrange. Nice detail but I am losing some expansiveness of the soundstage. And the midrange emphasis starts to become noticeable after a couple of hours of settling.

Sonic is wondering if Michael’s sound targets have shifted recently – with poplar and now the resitone squares, I seem to hear an emphasis towards the midrange. It is nice but different from my earlier tune equipment from MGA that tended to control upper bass and create girth."

mg

affraid

Wow Exclamation That's a ton of resitone for a component. Resitone that thick is more of a shielding dielectric.

sonic

"The other thing I discovered was how important top tuning could be. When I removed the top tune assembly – a MW plank and a handwound Harmonic Spring, there was a loss of dimensionality and realism. The music was more believable as a performance by real human beings with top tuning. And top tuning using light pressure where the spring can just slide on the MW plank. If the spring jams and drags on the MW, it is too tight and will close the sound down and give a small over focused soundstage. Too loose and the effect is gone. Takes practice to get it right but that is tuning…. "

mg

You said a mouthful there.

To me low mass and top tuning are the champions of music reproduction in high end audio. Trying to find materials that make over mass products sound correct is a challenge I would rather not even have to deal with. Vibration is a delicate road to travel because of resonant frequencies, but the results of low mass is where the music is.

Ultimately making my own system start to finish is the answer, but in the meantime unlocking the door to make a system be conduits of the signal and give enough variability is the goal. Maybe the industry will follow suit in a few years after the old ears are dead and gone.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:32 pm


Michael

Embarassed resitone that thick is a system dielectric.

Idea A shield for RFI nasties -- bidirectional....incoming and outgoing.

This gives Sonic an idea!

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:46 am


Hi Michael and Zonees

The idea is this: use the resitone squares over the main processor chips in my V-DAC and on the power supply of my Sonic CD player.

So one resitone square goes on the switching power supply of the Sony, one square goes over the input digital processor chip of the V-DAC and one more goes over the output gain section.

Shocked The power of fields show themselves.

I installed this after some listening to acquaint myself to the sound then made the switch. The treble came up, and there is no treble rolloff at all. The upper mids and treble have become more upfront and the system is just a tad short of being bright. This is one of the first times I have ever described my Magnaplanars 1.5QRs as bright.

This needs some work because while the treble has increased in quantity, I could do with more separation and quality. Meaning more definition needs to get tuned in -- if, for example, a hi hat is playing sixteenth notes to a bar and a triangle plays the crochets, the triangle needs to stand apart from the hi hat even when playing softly behind the hi hat beats.

Also the width has narrowed a little and there is now a hardness in the sound. But there is so much more transient attack and liveness. And learning from Michael, if I got energy to use and tune, there is promise of good musick to come.

This shows that treble roll off or a fat bass in an audio system can be caused by many things other than room acoustics.

They could be caused by (drum roll)....FIELDS!

Sonic can tune this in. I'll next swap round the resitone squares in different combination to get the treble extension I am looking for along with width. Pictures to follow too.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:28 am

Hi Michael and Zonees

Here is how I started with the resitone squares -- two on the V-DAC and one on the CD player switching PS:







After a couple of days of experimentation, I found this set up to work better:







This gave Sonic an extended treble with good projection.

Michael, I got some more questions on how to apply Space Cones:

1. Where can they be mounted on my Magneplanars? What about the grille cloth covering my panels? How many should I start with?

2. Where can the Space Cones be mounted on box speakers?

3. If Space Cones are used under furniture like bookcases and sofas, do they point up or down?

4. How can Space Cones be used with toroidal transformers? Do they work given that toroidals are wrapped in plastic sheet, and effectively damped?

5. For a large box speaker like a subwoofer, I can place four Space Cones on the top and move them around?

6. Can they be used with PZCs and aeroplanes? How many, where?

7. What about on ceilings?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:12 pm


Hi Michael and Zonees

As my system settled in, Sonic started to find the sound of two resitone squares on the V-DAC and one resitone square on the power supply of the Sony CD player was slightly better. Instead of a copper/MW square over the 24.5760 MHz oscillator, I found a piece of copper tape on the chip shield worked better. The whole sound is coming together nicely.

Then Sonic thought of another experiment -- what if I varied the lighting distribution and level in the room?

I tried two alternatives using a 45W frosted lightbulb:

a. lamp illuminates front of room (behind the loudspeakers, where the equipment is), rear of room darkened

b. rear of room illuminated, front of room behind the loudspeakers darkened.

The lighting level of the room for both a. and b. is too low to read without eye strain. But it turned out to be rather good for listening with undivided attention.

Sonic developed a preference rather quickly and I would suggest Zonees consider and try out various lighting levels and distribution patterns in their rooms.

I found that the way light is distributed in my room has an effect on the sense of width and scale from my system. Sonic also was placing my listening chair forward or in the original position to reproduce different CDs optimally. This means the distance of my listening chair from the rear (bookcase) wall accompanied by different room light level and front-back distribution resulted in how wide or present the soundtage was perceived.

While this is not the main factor creating the soundstage, it is one that is very important to create the promise of realism in the soundstage presentation.

Michael - your thoughts?

Sonic

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