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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:14 am

1. The pressure zone where your equipment is sitting is a very important one. Not only is it a main source for the staging but it is also where your components are vibrating. Your components vibrating is a good thing. Even better when they are vibrating with the pace of the pressure zone that they are in and passing that along to the music.

remember this picture



This was a system of mine right before I top tuned it. I took the pieces of the components and spread them out like they were one component. You didn't know where one started and one stopped. The component platform ended up being 4' X 4' but I have had platforms that were 4' X 8' (and one the size of a 10' X 12' room) before with the same amount of components on them. This set up is a no rack setup using just platforms, tuning boards, and canopies. The end result (sorry no picture) looked like something out of a sci-fi movie but performed like no high end system ever thought of doing. It was like taking ones rack and spreading the shelves all over the room like a miniature train setup. Racks are very cool and organized but there is another level to tuning if one doesn't mind their space being given over completely to the music.

When you added your tuner your space started to tell you that you where crowding the vibrational space (territory) of some of the energy. This could be acoustical, mechanical, or electrical remember.

What do you do?

I (at this point in a system) take a step back and see if I wish to go the next level of listening? A level that very few people go into because (a) nothing looks like a component anymore (b) everything in the system and room truly becomes dependent on everything else.

If you take this next step you want to take a look at your system and decide what will no longer be in it cause once you take it apart and rebuild it you will not be able to sell it as a unit unless you happen to be very good at putting things back together.

A week ago I asked you to take and reset your shelves and tell me what you hear. If you wish to get a good comparison of good or bad right or wrong, take your rack a part and find the right height, space, components, and position of each of the tuning shelves in the room with your components spread out on them. Better yet, think about if you had a platform (light weight) tuning board, canopy setup. think of what you could do with this.

2. An interesting question. I think that perhaps my re-think has more to do with helping people take their first steps toward tuning. Even though I come up on TuneLand or techno-zone and talk about how far one can go, the reality is most listeners have not taken their first baby steps into the hobby. Most people spend their first or last funds on their system and never give a thought that they are listening to the acoustics of a room and not an electronic component system. If you walk into your main audio stores of today you will not see one acoustical product being used or sold. what this means to me is that I need to start all over and re-introduce the RoomTune pillow and introduce RoomTuneART to the listening public. A job that will never end long after I am done.

RoomTune Squares are more flexible if one wants to play in the corners and seams, whereas the Original RoomTune TunePak is more for the standard setup that we have made a fixture in high end. Which is better? That would be up to the listener. I'll be offering both.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:47 pm

Hi Michael

Thanks for this. I've reset some of my shelves and the result is:

a. Music is louder for a given preamp volume control setting

b. More tone "wholeness", imaging is now more related to girth and sound weight

With the EchoTunes placed like Tune Squares, I got a soundstage that surrounds me (pix soon).

The music in my room has reached the point that I can hear (in miniature) what Hiend1 and other tunees described on their threads. This is good for sure.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:15 am

Hi Michael

Sonic wants to study the Next Level of the Tune.

At least to see what it involves.

Can you give me some starter steps that involve taking my rack apart and laying out the equipment and shelves like a miniature toy train. I got the space for this at the front of my room. And I don't mind taking the equipment apart.

Do I just place the shelves on the floor? What do I place under them to couple to the floor since I don't have enough MTDs. Can I start without canopies and still get a taste of things to come? Let me know -- this is getting exciting.

Also how can Sonic use a laptop for my front end?

What programs and add-on cards do I need to install to play CDs and what about the DAC? Is it a USB DAC? Will the computer be sited at my listening chair -- then I'll need a long cable to the preamp won't I?

Can you post a pix of a computer clamp.

Now that my whole room is more even sonically, the rear bookcase issue is in hand. I got an all round soundfield, albeit not a 50 ft one but a good one. So going to the platform and canopy route instead of the rack may be the Direction Forward.

I'm experimenting a bit more with the EchoTunes as Squares in the front and rear corners. With the Shutters, the sound is adjustable and shaping the stage is getting instinctive. Very happy with the Tune. cheers:

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:34 pm

Hi Sonic

This is all good to see. Spreading out your electronics is going to yield great results.

While your waiting on MTDs there is a product you can order off of Amazon.com that can get you through. Best Way Tools 25860 Dowel Center Set. These work fairly good for transfer and will hold you over till the real deal comes in. I use these inside of a new foot I make.

When you get some of these you will want to lay your boards on top of between 3 and 4 of these depending on the sound you like. This will get you started.

I will be doing a computer front end soon so as I do I will give the break down of the process. And yes, I will post a computer clamp.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:15 am

Hi Michael

Here's what I've done with the front of the room.



I am still working on the rear corners and the pix will follow once I'm done in a couple of days.

Let me get what you said about placing equipment like a model train right before I mess things up.

Step 1: disassemble the rack completely.

Step 2: take the free shelves and create platforms for the equipment like what I use the two amplifiers.

Step 3: Use cones or the dowel center set etc to support the shelves as they sit on the floor

Step 4 -- place the CD player on one shelf (Harmonic Feet under player)

Step 5 -- place the Preamp on another shelf supported by Harmonic Springs.

I have a canopy of sorts (non-MGD rods though) that can go over the CD player. I remember you said "always start with the source".

The Preamp will not be top tuned at this time.

Shelves will be laid out on the floor and I let it settle.

And then progressively add your MTDs as they come into production, add canopies etc.

If it gets wonderful and my budget allows, order a big canopy and set everything on it and again go to the Next Level.

Is this right?

Can you quickly draw me a graphic plan view of how you see the whole thing laid out?

If I do this I will have a total of 4 Floor-Shelves to carry the CD, preamp and two main amps and one genuine M Green mini-clamprack for the Paradigm X-30. Since i will have 2 shelves free, the x-30 clamprack and the tuner can each go on one shelf.

If you can send me something quickly, I can get cracking over this weekend. Sonic is in the right Tune frame-of-mind today.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:39 am

Hi Sonic

To get you rolling take a look at this to see where you are.



This is the beginning road map for your electronic audio chain or"train set". Your goal is to make this balanced from a 3d point of view combined with gravity.

warning: this may result in a lot of fun!!

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:20 am

Here is your next step


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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:14 am

Hi Michael

Many thanks for the response and guidance!

OK.....I am not sure what you mean exactly but it seems that I should look at arranging all my gear on the Soundstage Square as if it were a plate that I am trying to balance.

How high off the floor should each shelf be on average? Is 8 inches adequate?

I still have some Tunerack rods I can cut but some of the long rods on my main rack have to be cut too....so there's going to be no turning back once the train starts a'rolling.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:26 pm

Hi Sonic

Heights usually range from 4" to 18".

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:43 am

Hi Michael

Sonic found some dowel centers. They're not by Best Tools though but by General something or other.

Like the Best Tool version, I get a set of 8 dowel centers and they are in 4 different sizes -- the largest pair is 3/4 inch dia. and they get smaller.

How do I arrange these under my shelves then? Unless I buy multiple sets, I will always have two different sizes of dowels under each shelf. And if I get just 1 set, some of the dowel centers will be really small in diameter. Will small diameter base dowels be able to conduct vibrations properly?

I'll probably start with the dowel centers first before cutting any rods.

I've also worked out placing the components on that imaginary square so it can balance on a point. It will be a rather odd looking system for sure when I finally get it done. I hope I have enough cable length so I can adjust the placement.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:38 am

Hi Sonic

Yes, I have had to buy several sets to get a matching set as well. It's not perfect but it does get us by. I like using 3, 3/4" inch per shelf but it may be different on your boards. Let me know what you like.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:57 am

Hi fellow Zonees

Sonic has been a bit amused since last weekend by an odd idea sent to me by an earnest audiophile who is into Lowthers and flea powered tube amps.

OK he has been critical (somewhat dismissive) of the concepts behind the Tune and he is one who thinks that a soundstage and a 360 degree ambient field doesn’t exist in the pits of the CD and grooves of the LP etc… to him it is all artifacts of a dynamically flawed system. So I get this link to a bunch of webposts to set me on the right path. The idea here is the suggestion that Imaging and Soundstage creation are inverse properties and relate to the amount of compression in the room/system.

It goes like this:

a. all systems and in particular rooms compress the sound to some degree

b. horns and high-efficiency speakers display less compression and are known for thei8r dynamic [True!]

c. hi-efficiency speakers have life, speed, impact, startle factor and they image well but do not throw holographic soundstages. No walk-around images and ambience in the room [ehhh….why not?]

d. conventional low-efficiency speaker systems noticeably compress the sound and make the soft sections of the music, soft details and ambience louder. This causes undiscerning listeners to think there is greater resolution when there isn’t. Give the brain a bit of liveness in the room and viola! Psycho-acoustics will give you a big soundfield and separated front-rear imaging.

e. in one of the posts i read, a contributor claimed he used to listen to the old inefficient BBC monitors with a compressor in the system and got lots of ambience reproduced.

Then I heard a couple of systems. A horn-based one and another using a well-known BBC monitor derivative. For a similar SPL, the horns did what they do best. Slam with precise L-R imaging but no throw around ambience. The BBC monitors had depth of field and envelopment but the dynamics were flatter. The same pieces of music sounded faster thru the horn system. BUT it is 2 different rooms on 2 different days but same CDs and SPL meter used.

So back to Sonic’s system. Does this mean all ambient fields are a mark of a compressed system? No. Sound reproduction is a complex set of inter-relationships with psycho-acoustics involved. For instance, more apparent treble is not always due to an tweeter with peaks or too much gain in the top. It ain’t that simple. But when I listened to my system again, I could do with more dynamics. The soundfield is good….maybe very good for Maggies but for sure I need more slam and speed. My dynamics are a long way from the horns and the Lowthers… maybe I get a bigger amp? Will the "model train" set up give me more dynamics?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:03 am

Hi Sonic

It's funny how people in this hobby try to rationalize away what they can't get. You can quote me on this to that crowd. Their never going to prove that sound works differently than it really does. ( I should tell my ear doctor this revelation).

As I sit here reading your post I can hear a 360 sound of small and big dynamics, different placement cues of different sounds, space, and timing that tells me the size direction, and pressure of the sound + the reflections and absorption of that sound. And I haven't even turned on my system yet. The question that I would need to ask them is, "why wouldn't I want a system to do what real life does?" for me ( a designer acoustician) I will tune up what ever is thrown my way but as a listener I want the whole picture and that includes the environment in which a recording is made and the environment in which a recording is heard. To think that we can obtain something different from this would mean that one would have to have headphones that didn't dampen (and I haven't heard this yet). No, the closest thing to real life is a tunable room. A tunable room starts off between 3 and 6 db up from the original signal and tuned properly will produce the music content and size properly with tons of overhead dynamics.

BTW the phrase "Psycho-acoustics" has terrified the minds of the doubting analytical for 100 years. Back in the days of Edison some called the reproducing of sound through acoustics witchcraft. They'll get over it. Just a part of growing up.

I don't believe you will ever be happy sacrificing so much music for a few decibels, so your challenge in this regard would be how to you get the additional dynamics that you seek without losing the sound that makes you happy. As I have told you before if you don't increase the dynamic range to your satisfaction than you might someday be in the market for another speaker with more db on the back end, but if I were you I would make sure it delivers that 360 quality that you have grown to love.

Bigger amps to me mean more of a problem with the speakers db output. However the MA 500 that many use gets the job done with music to spare so this is not un heard of, you will just want to see if you want to take the risk. I personally do like the recent small amp approach much better as the signal has an easier path to travel through. Plus I like high effiency if the speaker can produce a 360 stage.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:21 am

Hi Michael

The reason why I put up that post is to show the range of views that people adopt to justify the sound they are getting (or erase what they cannot get).

For Sonic, the dynamics I am getting may be Maggie-type but the room has taken it so far forward that fellow Maggie owners who have heard my room-system leave aghast or "hating me"....of course the baroque and renaissance musick I play may not require that much dynamic capability but don't underestimate what it takes to reproduce Monk, Baker and Petersen.

I also got some Tunes up my sleeves -- remember the jumpers on my Maggies that Michael told me to coil up some Bare Essence into a spiral? Well that was early days of the Tune. I will try the more proper 3 inch jumpers using Bare Essence and see where this takes me. Then there are ETs...

Tell you more how we are progressing in the next few days...

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:28 am

Continuing...

....because I get the feeling at this stage that I should try removing the single EchoTune behind the CD cabinet or adding another one. Let's see where this takes me.

I agree with you about the big amps. I don't see myself bringing a Krell into the system. The MA700s are a possibility though Sonic remembers the rule that Maggies need at least 100W into 8 ohms to come alive and the owners I know say "twice that at least". And here is Sonic running them with 85Ws (of course with the X-30 active crossover rolling off the bass into the Maggies, the effective drive goes up a bit).

I think I am near a decision point in my audio system build up. The Tune works and has got this system here. The next step will take me far forward but it needs a fresh commitment of effort, a renewed mindset and not to mention money. I'll ponder this over the Christmas season.

What's the dimensions of the Horn 158 speakers, particularly the height?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:32 pm

Sonic,

I have read your last two posts with amusement. My response is do not give up so easy on your Maggies. Although I currently use flea amps with efficient coaxial speakers supplemented with a MGD passive sub, I would never suggest that you move from a speaker that you like. Audiofools will push their agendas and equipment as the best when every system type has strong points as well as weaknesses. You are on a good journey to further strengthen you listening experience with your Maggies. The experiences that you have shared with tuning the Maggies I have also experienced with other speaker types in my rooms here in Nashville. The MA700s are excellent amps that do work well and should give you the power you need with little investment.

I met Michael in my home here in Nashville several years ago, and I have visited him in Vegas a few years ago. I prefer Nashville for live music. We have superb classical music at the Schermerhorn Symphony Center as well as the historic Ryman. I can visit a local club any day of the week and see world class musicians performing in any genre of music be it classical, jazz, rock/pop, blues, country/bluegrass as well as others. I find that I like all types of music and Nashville offers most of the best at most any time. While we all try to attain systems that sound like live, this will be a long journey and never a destination. Like you, I have found that Michael’s advice has helped my music enjoyment as I have tuned my room and components. I am not surprised that you raised some eyebrows from local audiophiles when they heard your room. I have also had the same experience with some locals. So many audiofools are caught up in the equipment and not able to enjoy or learn what you can extract from the recording.

By the way, I am a very quiet member of the Hong Kong Audio club.
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:34 am

Hi Garp

So good to hear from you. I was listening to my system this evening and whatever the shortcomings, it is perfectly fine for the music I play. My Maggies are staying.

You'll have fun on the Asian audio sites. You may have seem some ideas and tweaks that are unbelievable. There are huge paper horns hung between speakers to improve imaging, violins hung so that sympathetic vibrations are channeled, and tube preamps run in series!

Whenever I go thru these sites I can't help but notice how, behind the different equipment, these systems, the placement and room treatment used are very similar. Almost out of a cookbook.

I remember when I set up my speakers according to "cookbooks" (eg: 1/3 from this wall, 1/5 here, toe in so much etc....and even if the initally tweak sounded nice, I would be resetting the position again in a week).

With Michael's suggested setting in my room, I have kept my speaker position and toe-in for almost two years and had no urge to move them at all. To me, that says something about the Tune.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:55 pm

Hi Guys

I like the terminology used in this thread. (cookbook & audiofools) Over the years I've tried to curve my choice of words when trying to describe audiophiles who seem to get lost in the made up world of theory instead of how music works based on using particle laws of nature and our ears, but it is indeed hard to keep from rolling the eyes.

I like what GARP is telling you about your speakers and perhaps the MA700 match up. The MA700 has surprised me many times when it came to power on demand without losing musical content. It's the only amp I know of that consistently has both. At the same time the high efficiency world is magical and even though I'm not crazy about a lot of cabinet designs I see and hear using these high db drivers I can't blame the drivers themselves. So far from what I can see I'm the only one who is using live baffle boards on the horn configurations which turns the speakers into a different animal. Where some use the horn drivers to deliver ears splitting volume, I use them as highly efficient tunable resonators. Air pressure and vibrational tonality work hand in hand in the tune. If a speaker leans too much to one end of this spectrum duo it gets stuck into a particular sound range that is more fixed sounding than I personally can handle. I say this because this is a common problem with horned drivers and may be one of the bad sides to the sound that the guys over there are getting.

2010 for me is a year of panels, horns, paper cone tweeters (I still use silk dome too), single driver full range speakers, big paper woofers, and killer subs. All of these will be pampered by the beautiful sound of natures best as far as maximum wood resonance (the key to good music reproduction). If you keep the Maggies you will want to follow my adventures in the Quad room closely (I'm sure there will be some hints for you).

The 158's come in a couple different sizes depending on the baffle thickness. Typically 22" wide 18" deep and 48" tall, with platforms 54" tall.

good reading

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:42 am

Hi Michael

Yes, more info on the Quad room please! Is there a thread coming on this?

Sonic is getting some really nice sounds now and even though I haven't made up my mind on tearing down the rack, Sonic will soon be rearranging the amp stands and racks to evenly distribute their weight on an imaginary square. This will involve me moving the platform that the subwoofer amp sits on towards the centerline of the room. I won't be surprised if this remedies the slight leftward and rightward imaging drifts I get occasionally.

There are so many methods to just place speakers in the audio magazine cookbooks. There is the Rule of Thirds, there is the diagonal method with audio gurus give advice on whether to toe-in or not...whatever the case, the idea is to minimize the influence of the room. So speakers end up at null points which means drive is lost and you need to get huge amps and wattage that will overheat your voice coils and cause more dynamic compression. A vicious cycle. The compression some talk about may not be just the room but clipping amps and over-warm voice coils. Then these gurus go on to add absorption to the room to tame ringing. The result may be a transparent sound with imaging that can be measured by degrees even ambience that typically gets projected not to the rear but to the front wall which the misguided call "hearing the back wall/proscenuim of the hall". OTOH the Tune is working with the room. This is more logical don't you think?

But I was invited to visit a sound recording studio and I listened over large JBLs or were they Westlakes. Very detailed sound off the hard disk but all the ambience was forward not around me like in my semi-tuned system. Very loud too.

Michael, do the studio monitoring systems you have heard throw ambeince to the rear holographically from master tapes/hard disks or is the reverb and ambience forward of the monitoring position (for classical and rock music)?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:49 pm

Hi Sonic

There are so many studio setups that it would be hard to pin one staging method as the predominate one of a recording. What your mics pick up (for example) is in most cases much different than the recorded signal itself (the control room play back). The original signal is a 360 signal that gets interpreted by a particular mic pattern. After this it is a signal system manipulation game. I say this because in stereo there is no such thing as a 2D or 1D sound, all sound is 3D. What this means for you as an end user is you can get a 3D 360 sound.

Bad room/equipment interfacing is as big of a problem in the different studio stages as it is in high end audio, but this does not mean that the music content did not get picked up by the microphones. It simply means that equipment and room designs are usually not able to bring to life the reality of what the mic, instrument and room have just done. Lets say that your using a good stereo mic that is picking up a piano that is 4' from the mic. No matter where the stage is placed (by the engineer) you will hear the 4' in the recording somewhere. You will also hear everything else around it in a 360 pattern (even if there is nothing but foam around the piano). the piano in this case would sound like a foamed out piano.

now back to your question

"Michael, do the studio monitoring systems you have heard throw ambience to the rear holographically from master tapes/hard disks or is the reverb and ambience forward of the monitoring position (for classical and rock music)?"

A good monitoring system in a good (in tuned) room sounds completely 3D all the way around you and the ambience does not float to the rear or front of the stage (ahead of or behind an instrument) unless the original acoustical space or micing dictates this type of ambient field. If you hear any system that does not replicate the space recorded in than you are listening to a system that is out of tune.

Here's something to always keep in the back of your mind when listening to a (any) system. The word ambience means atmosphere and atmosphere is very much 3D. No front or back, side to side, but all around. When I hear a system that flips the ambient field around I know that I need to get the system tuned up.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:45 pm

Hi Michael

Here's the tuning layout that seems to work best in the rear of my room (for now):



Fascinating to read your reply on studio monitoring and recording. Sonic is alarmed if this is true. Warning: philosophical rambling ahead!

I agree with you that microphones pick up a field of sound much more than the instrument or voice.

BUT if the recording system (analog tape, D/A conversion and digital recording) mediates the sound (that is, corrupts it),

AND the monitors do not reproduce the sound right especially if the playback system is not tuned,

SO the recording engineer and producer not hearing the full sound WHICH LEADS THEM to correct the sound with EQ, mike placement and balancing.....

THAT RESULTS to us receiving a sound that is incorrect, not an analog to the original and obviously corrupted several times over....

LOGICALLY LEADING to any sound being reproduced in a system, tuned or not, being random and accidental in its effect, being the summation of all the rights andwrongs down therecording and monitoring chain.

Any dimensionality and imaging that Sonicis hearing may therefore not exist on in the original sound and could be an artifact from the interaction many factors. OR, what I am hearing cannot be what the mikes picked up because whatever was there has been compromised and modified down the audio chain many times over. That what I hear sounds good is subjective and have no foundation in reality or realted to what was picked up by the microphones.

If this is the case...where then my system with its 360 degree ambience and girth? Where then the Tune in my room if there is no original sound to be anchored to?

Whatever the musicality, doesn't this raise a logical issue for us who pursue nthe Tune, the abosolute sound, the closest approach to the original sound and all that?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:48 pm

Hi Sonic

This is correct! There is no absolute sound. This is what makes music and the tune so wonderful. Without variable tuning music reproduction is hopelessly inaccurate.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:21 am

Hi fellow Zonees!

The Tune is scary! Scary but in a good way….Sonic started to experiment with moving the amplifier stand about so see the effect as a preparation for the Tune Model Train layout (where everything will taken apart and placed on low platforms).

I moved the stand supporting the subwoofer amp from the RH of the main rack to behind it/between the main rack and the wall. A move of 2 feet. After balancing it, I turned on the musick.

What a huge change – the sound became highly detailed and turned almost into MONO. The mono blob of sound was small and tightly focused at the front wall in the space behind the main rack. Sonic is not exaggerating. I actually went to check if I threw the mono switch by accident.

I moved the platform back and the normal width and scale came back! Depending on your point of view, this is either exciting or troubling. There is so much more to setting up a music system than getting the best gear, setting it up like the gurus do in some magazine and hoping it works. Without Michael’s gear, moving things around can causes changes but if the gear is not tunable, you just go from one compromised setup to another. You can’t break out.

With the Tune, the variability can do wonders. Of course a novice like Sonic can tune up a mess but if you make your notes, listen to live music as a reference, you can get back on track. Which is important when we hear Michael say ”there is no absolute sound”.

I get his point – there is a signal captured in the CD, on the tape. That is obvious. This sound has been captured by mikes but has been monitored, processed and mixed down on systems that obscured the Tune. With the large amount of signal processing used particularly in popular music, the engineer responded to the sound in the booth which is not presenting a correct or whole picture, so adjustments are made. Then a bad cycle is the result….it always amazes me how much detail survives all this. Classical and traditional jazz may not be as bad. So I guess with the Tune we are picking up those surviving cues and bringing them into our rooms -- ambience, tonal wholeness, slam, so many more things that make the music come alive.

The Tune does not create anything that isn’t there. It changes shadings and musical emphasis to bring out the music locked away deep in the recording medium. Can we derive chaos from the Tune? Yes. Tuneland records instances where different Tunees’ tastes and musical objectives are very different.

In Sonic’s view, buying equipment and wiring it up is an attempt at “tuning”….you hear audiophiles using silver cables, ceramic cones, various designs of room diffusors, magic markers for CD edges. There is also the endless hunt for new and better hardware. Lots of money is spent but there is no methodology beyond reading magazines, surfing the web, visiting showrooms. That is why Sonic recently remarked that for all the differences in equipment, the system set ups I see in magazines and on the web are actually very similar on both layout and ultimately in mental process.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:52 am

Hi Sonic

You hit on the part that always amazes me too. "large amount of signal" This is an understatement! I'm to the point that I don't believe in a bad recording any more. Maybe a bad performance but not a bad recording. What I mean is, there is so much signal to bring to life and to look inside of. When we get to the place where components disappear we open up the world of the true possibilities of "the signal".

How fun it is for me to see you get to this point.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:00 pm

Hi Michael

Can you comment a bit on what happened -- when I moved the amp stand to the rear of the main rack (that is, between the main rack and the front wall) the stereo image collapsed in width to the point i thought i had hit the mono switch by accident. What does this tell you about my room and system? Based on this can you give me any advice as I move to the "Model Train" layout.

Sonic
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