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 Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"

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Mediapet1



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PostSubject: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:23 am

Good morning Michael Green Company

I already use a set of your Room Tune products (TuneStrips, EchoTunes and CornerTunes), see the first four pictures in my hifi room. As you can see, I have the back wall prepared in the way you suggest. In the front (behind my panel speakers) I use a stack of two TuneStrips in the corners (left and right) and a EchoTune half way at the right wall.

Questions:

Since the room now is prepared as you suggest as "standard configuration" I wonder, if there is any space for improvement. For instance, should I add some TuneStrips at the wall BEHIND the loudspeakers or your XLT rectangular EchoTunes behind my listening position? What result do you excpect anyway? Please use my pictures to scetch your suggestions (typ, position, quantity).

I also have a problem with "standing waves" (in German "Flatterecho) in two other rooms (sleeping room and office). I do NOT listen to music in this rooms, nevertheless I find the "flatter-echo" most disturbing, since it multiplies every sound or noise in a very unplesant way. I do NOT have any pictures on the wall, just the furniture in the room. So the walls are completely nacked. The rooms are rectangular and the window-side has a large curtain, which covers the whole wall (see the last three pictures).

Is there any product-configuration in your RoomTune range, which would terminate this "flatter-echo" issue in this rooms?

Since you offer three shops to order from on you homepage, which one would stock your suggested items?

Thank you for your support and information



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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:48 am

Hello MP

Welcome to TuneLand

Lets get these rooms taken care of. Question for you: what materials are the walls made of?

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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:13 am

Here are the listen room pictures.


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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:49 am

Hi MP

I would like to see the left side if I could, thanks. My first thought (since we are using Epsilon) is the get some RT Squares both the Square and the XLTs. Epsilon respond to the areas you are talking about and by putting up the Squares you will hear the wall/speaker interaction fairly well. Next step beyond this would be the new PZCs which work together with the RTs to form a tunable variable pitch and tonal balance control system.

Tell me what you are hearing with the system.

What is the size of the soundstage?

Is it bright sounding or boomy sounding in your room?

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Last edited by Michael Green on Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mediapet1



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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:35 pm

Thank you MG

The left side opens to the dining room. There is no wall at all.

The walls and the celling are made of concret, covered with a fine plaster. The floor is made of solid wood parquet.

I have a good stereo image, but no real depth of soundstage.

Sound is neither boomy nore bright. Dynamics are fine.

About the positioning of the RoomTunes. Could you please mark the positions AND the type of the suggested RoomTune products on the pictures:

on the walls (behind) the loudspeakers
the long wall (where the rig is standing)
the rear wall (behind the seating position)
the celling (if necessary)

This would help immensly, since I do not have either the time nor the resources to expermient around.

Please ask, if you need more information about room etc. to make your judgement.

Could you also assist me with the other rooms, to counter-act the "flatter-echo"?

By the way. I like the RoomTune products, because they are easy to use, durable, not intrusive, affordable and effective.

Thank you for your help M.
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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:42 pm

Hi M

Here's a layout of RTXLT



If you wish to get rid of the upper echo we will add RTSquares above the XLT.


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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:06 am


Hello Mediapet1

Welcome to Tuneland!

Nice system you have with the Apogees (are those the Stage?) and your system. You are off to a good start!

What are the those tube amps you are using? I am using Magneplanars 1.5QRs and am now looking to power them with a pair of tube amps.

About the flutterechoes you are getting in your rooms, I had these problems too. Flutterechoes are difficult things. At first Sonic tried to spot their positions and apply a foam panel to the spot. It didn't work -- when I put the foam panel up, the flutterecho just moved to the right or left of the foam panel.

Then I tried another foam panel on the opposite side of the room but no change.

Using Echotunes in this way didn't work either. Trying to spot the point of the flutterecho and trying to damp it didn't work in my experience. The only thing that nearly worked was an aluminum ladder placed near the wall where the flutterechoes were and the stopped.

But this was not a good solution to listen music. But it shows that flutterechoes are not fixed with damping materials. It takes the whole room to be tuned right.

My present room, even though it is more live than the time I had flutterechoes as not even a hint of flutterechoes. The room has to be approached as a whole.

Maybe you can post some pictures of your rooms where you have flutterechoes and mark the spots where the echoes are worst? Maybe this way Michael and the Tunees can suggest some solutions.

But press on with tuning your music room. Michael's products unlock a wonderful amount of music that we didn't even know were there in our tapes, LPs and CDs. Sonic says this from experience.

Sonic
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Mediapet1



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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:54 am

Good morning to you Sonic

These are not Apogees, but Analysis Audio "Epsilon". The AA are much easier to drive and have a better sensitivity than the A.

The amps I use are Decware Tor II Mk III. (25 W@ 4-8 ohm). I run them in passive bi-amp configuration. The passive pre is the transforme volume control by Dayens.

I had Maggies for over a decade and used also various tube amps with them. But I for my taste, I settled with FM Acoustics 600 (which I bought second hand...). Since the Maggies proved to by fine with low power, but relly great with lots of power.

Thank you for your expertise regarding the flutterechos. I will try than.

For now I will order the RTS pillows and mount them, as M & you suggested.

We stay tuned and happy listening.

Valentin
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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:26 am

Hi Valentin

As a step beyond the RT Pillows and if it were my room with me working around the speakers instead of the other way around (I think the seating area is cool) I would be using Sound Shutters (white) to guide the music home.

Here's a drawing of the ceiling and I will do a couple more for the walls to give you an idea. The Shutters and XLT/tune combination would be wonderful.


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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:39 am





When we listen to sound in our rooms we are listening to air pressure. Sound waves are not traveling in a straight line to our ears. There are 2 main parts to what the sound pressure (build up) is doing. One, pressure zones, the other, laminar flow.



This constant build up of energy is in every room and is what you hear. As the pressure forms it makes pressure zones that you can easily listen to as you walk around the room talking or making sound. Some areas are at a plus signal and some at a minus.



Pressure Zone Controlling is what we have named taking control of a zone in the room and telling it what to sound like with the use of our acoustical/mechanical tuning tools.



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Mediapet1



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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:58 pm

Thank you Michael

Drilling anything into the walls (and ceiling) is a no go in the appartment I live. So the Sound Shutters are not a good way for me. Is there an alternative, I can use from your product line?

In case I find a solution (adhesive tape, which can be removed without leaving traces) to fix the MGA Sound Shutters at my ceiling. What would be the price for eight (Cool MGA Sound Shutters and where can they be ordered, since the shops you mention on your homepage seam not to offer the MGA's.

Thank you

Valentin
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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:32 pm

Hi Valentin

Sonic would know about the best tape to use in your area, but there is another product. I've been using this in my own place and it works wonders. I haven't even come up with a name yet but they are room voicers. I use them similar to Shutters only they are pillows. They are not directors like the shutters but more Air Pressure Voicers that go in the same places. Their 24"X5" and instead of the Mylar/foil shield (like the other pillows) they have a shield (barrier) made from pressurized air and sheeting.

Here's a pic.



You can contact Andrew andrew@michaelgreenaudio.com for ordering and pricing.

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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:27 pm

Hi Michael

The AP Voicing Panels look exactely perfect.

So these "AP Voicing Panels" are different to the regular RoomTune tunig strips and are designed to be used at the ceiling, right?

Last question: What is the "live-span" of my "old" RoomTunes? Do I need to replace them sometime?

I have contacted Andrew now via email for a quotation.

Looking forward in getting his and your answer.

Best

Valentin
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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:48 pm

Hi Valentin

The AP Voicing Panels can be used anywhere, but I like them on the edges of ceiling and wall pressure zones as they work fantastic on balancing the areas of the room and knock out echoslap while doing it. Their like fine tuning a piano.



To give you an idea how I use them.

a. front soundstaging

b. seam boundaries (close to seams, either on the ceiling or wall)

c. zone controllers (great for ceiling control, or even wall controllers), they do a great job at making the size of the pressure zone to what you want

The RoomTune with normal use (not tons of smoke or water) will last many years.

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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:37 am


Hi Valentin

Sonic was looking again at your system and thought I might ask you this:

a. What is your favourite music and do you play it loud/live or at reasonable levels where a conversation at normal voice is possible?

b. What do you think your system is good at, where do you think your system and room could be improved?

c. Have you done a "BOO!" and Clap! test? That is, sit at your listening seat and shout "BOO!" and clap you hands hard. Then walk around your room doing this. Is your room live, or damped? Do you get a long or short decay time? Any echoes? Where are they?

d. Is your soundstage width and height OK? Is your soundstage balanced or does it pull more to one side? Throw the mono switch -- do you get a tightly focussed small and centred image or is unfocussed or pulls to one side?

e. What sort of tubes do you use or want to use? Do you go for the sound of the Mullards and Telefunkens or are you a "modern tube sound" man?

Some things to consider:

a. Since you have an opening without a door to an adjacent room, think about placing an FS-PZC in the middle of the opening when you are listening. The PZC will keep your pressure zones within your room and the "backwash" sound from the adjacent will be weakened by the absorptive side of the PZC.

b. Try removing the CornerTunes in the floor corners of your room. See if the room gets more pleasantly livelier.

c. I wonder if full length double Tunestrips are too much of a good thing and deadens your room. Try just one centred in each of your front corners. You might not need any in your rear corners.

d. I fixed my Shutters to my walls and ceiling with screw mountings. But if you want to not do any drilling, you can (as I did) tape the brass brackets with paper adhesive tape. Tape over the brackets to hold them to the surface and ensure the brackets are in contact with the wall or ceiling as this affects the sound. Don't use double sided foam tape between the bracket and wall as this dampens and reduces the efectiveness of the Shutters.

Sonic

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Mediapet1



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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:20 am

Good morning Sonic

a) I listen to 80 % classical and the rest ist easy listening jazz. Sound level is soft, I tuned the whole set up in a way, that it sounds best at pretty low listening levels (thats why I use the Dayens TVC with components of Serge Schmidlin/Audio Consulting, Switzerland).

b) Transparancy, microdynamics, tone color.

c) Neither BOO nor clap echos, rather damped.

d) Focussed center image at "mono". Neither left or right "pulling". Stereo separation is good, not much depth.

I achieved this all, after moving the loudspeakers as close as possible to the listening position. Now I have about 50 cm distance from the side wall and about 140 cm from the rear wall. When the loudspeakers where farer away, stereo image, mono focus and soundstage where a complete mess.

e) EL 34 is the tube recommended by Steve Deckert. The amps can run KT 88 and other tubes, but SD says, that the amps are specifically designed for the EL 34. Do you maybe have a recommendation for EL 34?

I will consider your recommendations you mention under a - d. You could be right, that the room is overdampend. I will get back to you as soon as I can.

Valentin
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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:47 am


Hi Valentin

a. Sonic listens to mostly early music -- renaissance, gothic and baroque. Music from Praetorius, S Schiedt, Handel, Bach and the French baroque (Couperin, Dolle), some classical but very little after 1800. Then I also like some 20th century works. I have a growing number of ethnic recordings and a fair amoung of jazz mostly from 1950 to 1970.

b. For the small scale early orchestral and polyphonic Church music (about 90% of what I listen to), my average listening levels are in the mid 70dBs (C-weighting). Peaks of 83 dB are seriously loud. I do listen to some rock like Creedence Clearwater Revival but the levels are a little higher.

Sonic listens to classical music at levels where I can carry on a conversation withy another person seated near me at normal voice levels. The rock stuff a little higher maybe and it does get the amps warm.

c. I get a nice full range sound from 20 Hz up. The treble sings and the midrange is a little forward but nice. My problem is I get enough height but my soundstage should go more beyond my right and left walls. It is getting there but my soundstage is constrained in width.

d. My testing with BOO! is lively but dies not ring. One test you can try is to walk thru your dwelling talking from one room to the next and throught your listening room and then away from it. Does your voice sound different? Does your voice sound deeper and more resonant and louder in your listening room? If it does your room is set up well for music repro. If it is damped, maybe some corner tunes or treatment needs to be removed.

When you shout BOO! and clap your hands, a little air is good and you should hear a bit of decay, the sound should not sound like it hits wall and goes dead.

e. Sonic's speakers are now 18 inches from the slide walls and about halfway down the length of my room. I sit about 5 to 6 feet from the Magneplanars.

f. Your are absolutely right and what you have said has made me start thinking of getting new amps -- Magneplanars are OK with low power amps but really need lots of watts to work their best.

g. Sonic uses a Quicksilver preamp and a transistor amp for my tuned system. But if you have seen my thread, I have a couple of systems elsewhere in my dwelling. I am using Sovtek and Electro-Harmonix for my power tubes. For EL34s I am dreaming of Mullard but I suspect it could be too vintage in sound. EH and Sovtek give me a nice balance between the old and new tube sounds.

h. For 12AX7 preamp tubes, I am using GE and TJ Full Music (China made). The TJ, short for Tianjin, sounds excellent but their quality control is poor. I had one breaking down and giving off nasty noises in a week or so of use. I heard their EL34s sound good. Can your amp be biased for 6550s? The Sovtek 6550s are excellent.

i. The GE 12AX7s are nice, Sovteks are good value for money. I have Amperex Bugle Boys and they were a bit bright. Sonic has a soft spot for Mullards -- rather sweet and tubey but I have not used them recently in my latest tuned room. The NOS Mullards are really expensive in Singapore (minimum Euro 200 pr) and no guarantee they are working in top condition.

For now my Tune is moving ahead nicely and once I get the cones and some other gear I ordered from Michael, I may go back to the Mullard 12AX7s and change my amps to P-P tube monoblocks.

Sonic
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Mediapet1



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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:48 am

Sonic, Michael

I am getting a bit confused now with the statements I get. Should I now add the XLT and the AP Voicing panels or should I remove some of my existing RoomTunes (CornerTunes and TuneStrips)?

Since I have decided to replace all my exsiting RoomTunes, I will build up a complete new set up.

Just tell me, what I should do.

Looking forward in hearing from you and thank you for your support and patience.

Valentin
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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:15 pm

Hi Valentin and Sonic

Here's where I stand on the issues being talked about. It's extremely important to look at what the system is instead of what the system is not. If we are talking about a change in the setup and moving toward a tunable setup, removing objects from the room, changing the racking system, and moving the seating (getting rid of one of the seats) than I am on-board. Nothing rivals a tunable system. But if we are talking about a casual high end setup where people can gather and enjoy the seating and furniture setting, I take a different view.

Balance comes down to the purpose of the room and the entire setup. When I look at the both of you (even though you are talking the language of tubes and harder to drive speakers than what I recommend) your systems are entirely different from each others and there is no way you will have similar listening experiences without bridging the gap a little more.

I am always thrilled when someone heads toward more of a tunable system because we have seen the results and have experienced the joy as the listener steps into a world that goes far beyond high end audio. At the same time, I have respect for the high end audio event and see that there are many who take things more casual. Saying that, we need to ask the question: how far are we going here guys? If we are keeping the stands and keeping the seating where it is than go with my setup. If we are looking to make changes and go toward a different configuration than lets go that direction. But mixing the 2 is going to cause a bit of a mess and I would recommend going one way or another.

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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:33 am

Good morning Michael and Sonic

Sorry for getting back only now, but job duties kept me away from the forum

I very much appreciate the extremly tuned room of Sonic. This is realy a passionate work. Nevertheless, I will never be able to tweak my room in such a way. Therefore I will follow the suggestions of Michael and accept the compromises.

I will order the RoomTune products in the coming days.

For now thank you very much for you splendid support and competence.

Valentin

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PostSubject: Re: Improving existing RoomTune and fighting "flatter-echo"   Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:37 am


Hi Valentin

Good to hear that you've worked out the path you want to take with the Tune. Your approach can produce very good results and you are likely to be very satisfied.

My room is a compromise too though less than many music rooms. For instance, the bookcases which I turned around at Michael's advice to work as a SAM cannot be removed from the room. The musical instruments must be stored in this room and nowhere else. The CD cabinet has to be in the room. Given the door swings, the Magneplanars cannot be placed closer to me.

If you want to see real dedicated tuned room, have a look at the Tuneland archives and see Hiend1 and Cdimi's systems. I also got inspiration from Yikes and Drewster's rooms. These are the stars I navigate by.

Sonic

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